War in Russia

[Muscle Master]

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

We'd like to think they're archaic.....but I'm sure there is a "Modern" element to their missle systems....
there must be for them to be this cocky with a country trying to join the UN.

I'm curious of this AK 105 that they won't release to the public, that rifle got to be awesome

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

We'd like to think they're archaic.....but I'm sure there is a "Modern" element to their missle systems....
there must be for them to be this cocky with a country trying to join the UN.

They're trying to join NATO. Georgia has been a member of the UN since 1992. Before that, it was part of Russia for about 2 centuries. Before that, it was either part of Turkey or any of the dominant empires at the time.

Either way, Russia definitely has a great deal of confidence even though the US outspends the rest of the world combined in with the US military budget and supplemental grants passed by Congress for current overseas obligations.

[boxmonkeyracing]

wow everyone is forgetting about the TU-160 black jack. . .(think B-1B on steroids). . .bigger, faster. . .better? first two are correct. . .better who knows they have stated they've broken our air space with out our knowledge with it but who knows if they really have and if we didn't really know about it.

[DGthe3]

As much as I want to keep talking about US vs Russia, this is supposed to be about Russia vs Georgia

[Beelzebubba]

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

wow everyone is forgetting about the TU-160 black jack. . .(think B-1B on steroids). . .bigger, faster. . .better? first two are correct. . .better who knows they have stated they've broken our air space with out our knowledge with it but who knows if they really have and if we didn't really know about it.

The Russians say a lot of shit.

The MiG-25 was supposed to be superior to the F-15. They were highly confident of this 'fact'.

The Eagle remains undefeated in air to air combat. 100+ wins and zero losses. Many of those kills were MiG-25s.

You are correct about the TU-160 it is bigger and faster than the B-1. Smaller payload but with nukes that really doesn't matter. It's not stealthy.
Not like the B2. It's stealthier than a B-52 or Bear...sure. but not really a stealth bomber.

I remember reading that they only had like 10 operational Blackjacks I guess they'd only really need one though.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Beelzebubba

The Russians say a lot of shit.

The MiG-25 was supposed to be superior to the F-15. They were highly confident of this 'fact'.

The Eagle remains undefeated in air to air combat. 100+ wins and zero losses. Many of those kills were MiG-25s.

You are correct about the TU-160 it is bigger and faster than the B-1. Smaller payload but with nukes that really doesn't matter. It's not stealthy.
Not like the B2. It's stealthier than a B-52 or Bear...sure. but not really a stealth bomber.

I remember reading that they only had like 10 operational Blackjacks I guess they'd only really need one though.

A b-1b isn't stealthy but TF you really don't need too much stealth. and in some cases it's better then stealth. if you can see a B-2 you can shoot it down. good luck in seeing a B-1b and it not being too late. that's all I'm saying. first hand knowledge of what they are capable of.

the 160 has TF ability and is faster then a B-1b. mission capable rates for the 160 have always been really really low. the 160 isn't as bad as you have made it out but I will say the B-1b is a whole lot better.

[Beelzebubba]

I wasn't disagreeing.

I'm just saying the Russians and all the people who buy their stuff talk a lot of smack about their capabilities.

Believe me. Until the 2006 Lebanon War, My M1 was viewed as inferior to the Merkava Mark IV and the T-80.

Some video gamers played 'such and such' game and the M1 was notoriously bad in it so in real life it must suck.

The only thing the Abrams sucks is fuel. Lots and lots of fuel. 1500 American horsepower worth of fuel.

The Russian RPG-29 will penetrate a Merkava's and a T-80/T-90's frontal armor. It damaged our armor but a buttoned up crew would survive a frontal or side armor hit and be able to eliminate the RPG grenadier.

[Wm Holden]

1500 hp...me like.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Beelzebubba

The Russians say a lot of shit.

It is politically notable that Russia is a very proud country with a long history of nationalistic tendencies. As a result, Russia will tend to portray itself on more equal footing with opponents than the truth.

At the same time, the US has similar nationalistic tendencies that tend to make Americans assume superiority in every category. While the US can be very confident that its military outspends and enemy, the same cockiness in war led to American independence from Britain's dominant forces in the past, albeit with the help of the French.

Basically, I'm just saying that the Russians have a lot of face to save since a complete government collapse in our lifetimes, so it isn't very surprising that Russia wants to stand out internationally as a world power.

[DGthe3]

This isn't from a major news group, but it is something

A fragile peace between Russia and Georgia seemed to be holding on Thursday even as explosions rocked the strategic Georgian town of Gori, and Moscow and Tbilisi traded accusations of ceasefire violations.
A Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman accused Russia of attempting to destroy Gori and the strategic Black Sea port of Poti, which are still under the control of the Russian military. A senior Russian commander said his armed forces aren't yet ready to give a date for their withdrawal from Georgian territory.
Meanwhile, rebel leaders from the Georgian province of South Ossetia said they intend to achieve full independence from Tbilisi. Russian President Dimitry Medvedev vowed that Moscow would act a guarantor of the security of South Ossetia and Abkhazia if they choose to become independent<more at link>.

at-a-glance-fragile-truce-in-russia-georgia-conflict

[mxkx250]

I heard on the news yesterday that Russua said that NATO nukes in Poland may cause war there. Sounds like they are getting bolder. Maybe the hardliners are deciding to revert to their old ways. After all, all these newer European democratic governments used to be in the USSR.

[Beelzebubba]

It's not NATO nukes that has the Russkies' panties in a bunch. It's the US missile defense net.

Vlad and his neo-commie buddies do not like the possibility that we might be able to shoot down their ballistic missiles.

I think that regardless of how our anti-missile tests went, we should have just said, "yep, it works 100%"
I mean why not? DPRK and Islamic Republic of Iran photoshop their missile test photos.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Beelzebubba

It's not NATO nukes that has the Russkies' panties in a bunch. It's the US missile defense net.

Vlad and his neo-commie buddies do not like the possibility that we might be able to shoot down their ballistic missiles.

I think that regardless of how our anti-missile tests went, we should have just said, "yep, it works 100%"
I mean why not? DPRK and Islamic Republic of Iran photoshop their missile test photos.

Remember that they are a power with priorities different than the US. They want to be sovereign and have a sphere of influence with neighboring regions. The US is stepping on Russian toes by introducing a missile defense net nowhere near American borders. Even if the intent of the net were to defend US allies, the net does not protect countries with hostile neighbors, like South Korea, Japan, Israel, or any of South America.

In other words, Russia wants to be able to act unilaterally without the US impeding Russian foreign affairs. As a sovereign nation, Russia has every right to be unhappy or even feel threatened by the US defense net.

On the note you made about claiming 100% accuracy, I just want to add that downplaying it's success rate may not be a bad thing. It allows the US to "need" more missile defense units overseas.

[Beelzebubba]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

... I just want to add that downplaying it's success rate may not be a bad thing. It allows the US to "need" more missile defense units overseas.

Good point. Didn't think of it that way.

[Wm Holden]

there is no spoon.

[Beelzebubba]

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Beelzebubba

It's not NATO nukes that has the Russkies' panties in a bunch. It's the US missile defense net.

Vlad and his neo-commie buddies do not like the possibility that we might be able to shoot down their ballistic missiles.

I think that regardless of how our anti-missile tests went, we should have just said, "yep, it works 100%"
I mean why not? DPRK and Islamic Republic of Iran photoshop their missile test photos.

Well, it wouldn't be the first time the US understated its capability

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Remember that they are a power with priorities different than the US. They want to be sovereign and have a sphere of influence with neighboring regions. The US is stepping on Russian toes by introducing a missile defense net nowhere near American borders. Even if the intent of the net were to defend US allies, the net does not protect countries with hostile neighbors, like South Korea, Japan, Israel, or any of South America.

In other words, Russia wants to be able to act unilaterally without the US impeding Russian foreign affairs. As a sovereign nation, Russia has every right to be unhappy or even feel threatened by the US defense net.

On the note you made about claiming 100% accuracy, I just want to add that downplaying it's success rate may not be a bad thing. It allows the US to "need" more missile defense units overseas.

Ah but it does. Even in Poland.
Huh?
On the surface that doesn't make any sense but in the grand scheme of things its a very clever move. The beauty of such a system is that it serves multiple purposes. The missile defense system can be deployed anywhere and it makes a huge political statement: "These are our friends, mess with them and you will be hurt badly". It can defend a nation against hostility, and if the other guy launches a first strike, that invites a retaliatory attack (I hope this never, ever happens). Those hostile nations are defenseless without a similar system in place. This keeps the hostile nations in check. If the bad guys are too afraid to strike, you can strike against them (if you need to) without fear.

Lots of assumptions in there of course.

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

there is no spoon.

Yes. Its all in the mind, like everything else in politics. All moves are symbolic, this is no different. As was the war in Georgia. Russia wants to reassert its power, and show that they are still a global player. Perception is more important than reality. That is why CNN is the most powerful organization in the world.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Ah but it does. Even in Poland.
Huh?
On the surface that doesn't make any sense but in the grand scheme of things its a very clever move. The beauty of such a system is that it serves multiple purposes. The missile defense system can be deployed anywhere and it makes a huge political statement: "These are our friends, mess with them and you will be hurt badly". It can defend a nation against hostility, and if the other guy launches a first strike, that invites a retaliatory attack (I hope this never, ever happens). Those hostile nations are defenseless without a similar system in place. This keeps the hostile nations in check. If the bad guys are too afraid to strike, you can strike against them (if you need to) without fear.

I want to be very clear to all members of this site. I am an American patriot and am not defending Russian aggression with my post regarding Russia's right to be concerned about the US missile defense net. I am merely stating that such concerns are logical from a nation that seeks to retain its dominance in the region.

In the interest of diplomacy, the defense net may not be such a great idea since the US is so unwilling to deploy forces in Georgia. Currently, the defense net seems to be a large bluff. We will likely find out very soon since Russia casually threatened Poland with bombardment since they signed a US agreement granting the US the right to plant missiles there.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

I want to be very clear to all members of this site. I am an American patriot and am not defending Russian aggression with my post regarding Russia's right to be concerned about the US missile defense net. I am merely stating that such concerns are logical from a nation that seeks to retain its dominance in the region.

In the interest of diplomacy, the defense net may not be such a great idea since the US is so unwilling to deploy forces in Georgia. Currently, the defense net seems to be a large bluff. We will likely find out very soon since Russia casually threatened Poland with bombardment since they signed a US agreement granting the US the right to plant missiles there.

Oh I agree that they have every right to be afraid. In fact, I'd be concerned if they weren't a little shaken by it. They'd know better than anyone if its a bluff, the Russians still have a top notch spy network, thats one of the things they've always done well. So unless these are merely token moves on their part (which is possible) I'd say the tech is pretty legit - you've been working on it for 20+ years. It better work.

Threats are one thing. Acts are another. Putin is a KGB thug, no doubt about it. But he isn't stupid either. He can push around little guys, but the US isn't the type to be easily intimedated. You might have your army tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan but you still have a few trillion dollars worth of navy and airforce that aren't too busy right now.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Oh I agree that they have every right to be afraid. In fact, I'd be concerned if they weren't a little shaken by it. They'd know better than anyone if its a bluff, the Russians still have a top notch spy network, thats one of the things they've always done well. So unless these are merely token moves on their part (which is possible) I'd say the tech is pretty legit - you've been working on it for 20+ years. It better work.

Threats are one thing. Acts are another. Putin is a KGB thug, no doubt about it. But he isn't stupid either. He can push around little guys, but the US isn't the type to be easily intimedated. You might have your army tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan but you still have a few trillion dollars worth of navy and airforce that aren't too busy right now.

That's the cold hard truth, and Americans wouldn't hesitate to stand up to Russia. Historic precedents show how tough the US will stand even when tied up elsewhere. A nation as equally matched as Russia is a threat, but neither nation is likely to pull the nuclear trigger unless some serious conventional warfare comes to pass. Everyone remembers the Cold War era, and no one is letting that communist reputation go away quickly.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by CBC

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev has said his country's troops would begin pulling back from their positions in Georgia on Monday. The withdrawal plan was disclosed in a phone call to French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who brokered a Russian-Georgian ceasefire agreement, the Kremlin said on Sunday
Medvedev said Russian forces would move toward Georgia's breakaway province of South Ossetia, but he stopped short of promising they would return to Russia. He also gave no firm deadline for completion of the withdrawal.
Observers believe Russia could maintain a sizeable force in South Ossetia, fuelling speculation that Moscow could seek to eventually annex the region.
The ceasefire plan calls for both sides to pull back to positions they held just over a week ago, before the fighting began.
The province is at the heart of a conflict between the two countries that erupted in violence earlier this month when the Georgian government launched an assault to take back control of the Russian-backed territory.
Russia said hundreds of civilians, many of them Russian citizens, were killed in the Georgian bombardment. However, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili accuses Russia of ethnic cleansing.
During a joint news conference Sunday with German Chancellor Angela Merkel in the Georgian capital Tbilisi, Saakashvili cited reports of looting and attacks on Georgians by separatist militia in recent days.
"They are throwing people out of their houses. And they are not only doing that, but they acknowledge that they are doing that, and they are doing ethnic cleansing," he said.
He also called for international monitoring of the pullout.
Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili, left, and German Chancellor Angela Merkel speak while meeting in the Georgian capital Tbilisi on Sunday. (Shakh Aivazov/Associated Press) On Friday, U.S. President George W. Bush said the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia are officially recognized as part of Georgia even if their sympathies lie with Moscow.
But on Sunday, Marc Perrin de Brichambaut, the secretary general of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, disagreed.
"The political future of South Ossetia is by definition for the South Ossetians to determine. They live in a difficult context. They have to take into account the facts of history, the facts of geography, the realities of today's world," he said.
Meanwhile, aid agencies estimate there are about 80,000 internally displaced people who have fled the conflict zones and taken shelter in and around Tbilisi.
"David Womble, Georgia's national director for World Vision, said those involved in the aid effort are running out of spaces for them.
"They're literally occupying almost every available building, including schools and kindergartens. And the school year starts on Sept. 1, so it's going to be an issue in the next two weeks," he said.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/0...a-georgia.html

[Beelzebubba]

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

there is no spoon.

The Tick and I respectfully disagree Neo.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Beelzebubba

The Tick and I respectfully disagree Neo.

Umm, it was "shaved head spoon boy" (did he even have a name?) that said that, not Neo.

[The_Blur]

MSNBC has posted an interesting article. Note that Russia blames Georgia for bombing their own breakaway province.

[chadrcr]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Remember that they are a power with priorities different than the US. They want to be sovereign and have a sphere of influence with neighboring regions. The US is stepping on Russian toes by introducing a missile defense net nowhere near American borders. Even if the intent of the net were to defend US allies, the net does not protect countries with hostile neighbors, like South Korea, Japan, Israel, or any of South America.

In other words, Russia wants to be able to act unilaterally without the US impeding Russian foreign affairs. As a sovereign nation, Russia has every right to be unhappy or even feel threatened by the US defense net.

On the note you made about claiming 100% accuracy, I just want to add that downplaying it's success rate may not be a bad thing. It allows the US to "need" more missile defense units overseas.

The fact that they want to ACT unilaterally, (given their history) is why Poland and others want US to put in a defense network.
the USSR tried to spend/ build during the cold war, but could not keep up with President Reagan, a Dem congress and the American tax payer (past and future) they built huge #s of planes, we had built quality planes and trained quality pilots (still do) we never tried to keep up with the numbers of tanks/planes/soldiers---- we chose quality over quantity, training and skill over numbers. part of why they are so bold, is all the talk about the American military being over extended, stretched to thin, bla bla bla, sure we are over extended, we have been baby sitting in Iraq ( Iraq- time to get it together and get Iraq back on its feet ) we are in Afghanistan etc... over extended? compared to relaxed on the back porch. But all the over extended talk has given our 'potential enemies' a little confidence. As far as storming the beaches... that can never happen, the worlds largest 2 Air Forces are US, the US Navy has as many planes as the US Air Force (no offense) and both are highly trained, with years of experience and are working with a higher level of quality aircraft and maintainers with superior logistics capabilities (spare parts) BUT the nukes could end the whole world, IF they tried to go that way, they would lose... we all would.
:flag2: