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Old 01-11-2010, 05:15 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
The KB blower looks good and efficient but I believe you will get more power out of a bigger blower. I am not taking anything away from KB but it looks like they were the ones who did the test in the article and not a 3rd party. I think the tests will always be skewed towards a manufacturers product that is doing the test. I can't remember the comparison between the Hennessey 650 car and the 725 Super Snake - didn't they dyno close to the same?? It will be interesting to see these on the new camaros - can't wait.
Man, what are you doing up in SD at 4:05 AM reading car articles?
Yes, the article was a bit biased, but still KB and Whipple are excellent PD S/C. I wish I could have one of each (Maggie, KN and Whipple)
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Old 01-11-2010, 10:25 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
The KB blower looks good and efficient but I believe you will get more power out of a bigger blower. I am not taking anything away from KB but it looks like they were the ones who did the test in the article and not a 3rd party. I think the tests will always be skewed towards a manufacturers product that is doing the test. I can't remember the comparison between the Hennessey 650 car and the 725 Super Snake - didn't they dyno close to the same?? It will be interesting to see these on the new camaros - can't wait.
The Hennessey and Super Snake were close, but the 650 had ported heads and a blower cam; it's just not the same. If they did testing of both blowers on a 6.2, or whatever, that'd be something I'd be interested in. Also, the 650 had IRS, and big ole' wheels and tires, and such. That Shelby only had a blower upgrade (and maybe intake - I can't remember); the 650 was gone through a lot more...

There's a good write-up on this blower in a recent MM&FF. Yeah - it read like KB was doing the test, not a third party, just as you noticed. The improvements make sense (to my simple mind), but it just seems to me that this article points out facts that just aren't apples-to-apples (like I've read from this company before...). They make a big deal about the 3.6 making A LOT more power with the same size pulley than their 2.8H, but the boost is SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER! Of course it should make more power, right? What am I missing?! Why does this matter? How is it relavent? What if they post numbers at the same boost levels? Will the benefit of this huge blower be a lot less, and maybe expose some inefficiency? I'm sure it's a lot more efficient at higher boost levels, and I think they showed that, but whenever I've ready about the screw compressors and comparisons among them, or to even a TVS, it just seems the comparisons are not under the same circumstances...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
Man, what are you doing up in SD at 4:05 AM reading car articles?
Yes, the article was a bit biased, but still KB and Whipple are excellent PD S/C. I wish I could have one of each (Maggie, KN and Whipple)
I don't want to make it sound like I don't believe this statement, because I do. Going back to my reference above, in another article, by the same magazine, if I remember correctly, they compared a 2.8H (on a GT500) to a 2.3 TVS. There were obvious differences in efficiency, in terms of heat and power consumption, but MM&FF like make it a point to say that they're using the same diameter pulleys in the comparison, but they're spinning the blowers at significantly different boost levels. Shoot - they even test the KB with their Mammoth intake and compare it to the TVS that doesn't even have a similar upgrade (at least that they show in the comparison). I don't care about pulley size as much as testing at the same boost levels. They also go to point out how hot the TVS gets with the same size pulley, but it seems to be out of it's design range compared to the KB; that goes to show the headroom of the KB - no problem there. It's one thing to say we're going to run these blowers, b@lls-out, and see who's king. It's another to TRY to make direct comparisons when they aren't close to being set-up similarly.

The bottom line is I think it's time for someone to see about getting these blowers together, test them under the same conditions, see where they peak, check their efficiency, etc. I work in a lab myself, and so many of these comparisons just don't much sense IMHO. Personally, with what I've read, I think the twin screws have the advantage, but I don't think it's as big as we're being led to believe
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Old 01-11-2010, 11:08 AM   #28
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i see what your saying about keeping it at equal boost for the test and that they didnt do that, just kept the same size pulley

but when they put them on a different motor to test for efficiency, they had both blowers set to put out 20psi. it may not be the exact results your looking for but you can piece together the puzzle. at equal boost the KB was more efficiency in all aspects, how much better would it be power wise at the same boost would have to left to that specific test. but its not like a KB cost $10K and a magancharger is $1.50, they are not that far off in price (generally speaking)
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Old 01-11-2010, 11:10 AM   #29
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Old 01-11-2010, 11:53 AM   #30
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i see what your saying about keeping it at equal boost for the test and that they didnt do that, just kept the same size pulley

but when they put them on a different motor to test for efficiency, they had both blowers set to put out 20psi. it may not be the exact results your looking for but you can piece together the puzzle. at equal boost the KB was more efficiency in all aspects, how much better would it be power wise at the same boost would have to left to that specific test. but its not like a KB cost $10K and a magancharger is $1.50, they are not that far off in price (generally speaking)
THANK YOU! I was starting to think I was the only one thinking about that I just really begin to question a company making claims when the testing seems skewed; of course, I could just be interperating it wrong...

As far as the 20 psi test, I didn't really have a problem with that test. The KB was clearly superior - no question. Where I questioned it a little bit, is whether-or-not the 2300 was designed to be running at the 18,000 or 20,000 RPMs I think it was running at, and it didn't even get to 20 psi if I remember correctly... I mean, if I don't have an intention on running at 20 psi (and it isn't even designed to be spun that high), I don't need a blower that goes that high, so I'll be less interested in it. However, if I'm running at 15 psi, I'm certainly going to be looking at it's efficiency and power consumption at that level and lower RPMs. I'm all for having enough headroom, but it's not like I need a Top Fuel dragster-sized blower - even I know that, lol. I just want to see conclusive testing, under the same conditions, apples-to-apples
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:31 PM   #31
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Were Glad you guys like it..

Hey All,

Some of you may know our compay from other GM KB products, but some of you may not.

I have been working closely with Kenne Bell since 2004 designing the LS based twin screw kits. We became involved with them on the original C5 kit, and have continued to aid in design and R&D since then.

When it comes to this kit, and the system in general, we are probably the most knowledgeable in the industry. That being said, I will be more than happy to answer pretty much any question yu may have. Chances are, if you call KB, they will refer you to me anyways.

BUT, this kit is a COMPLETE redesign from the ground up. From the lower manifold, to the new patented head unit, to the anxiously awaited redesigned inlet manifold. It carrys nothing from the original C5 kit (For a few reasons.) Lets just say we learned ALOT from that system.

Although originally we had anticipated a final release on 1/1/10, we have had to push back the release until right around 2/1/10. This has nothing to do with the kit itself, we are just waiting on a few shipments of some gears, and 100 of the inlet manifolds. But the lkit is 100% complete, and the car is actually sitting on the dyno. The instructions are written, and final. We did have to make a few changes for the automatic at the last minute, but that has already been addressed.

I will be installing the very first production unit around the first week of Feb, as well as showing you guys the 3.xH on the dyno. We have a purpose built 416 stroker that was built to pop... What do I mean??? well, were gonna kep turning the wick up until she blows. .Were gonna start with the 2.8, then go to the 3 and 4L head units. we want to show the capabilities of each unit in a purpose built application.

I can tell you this though. In the production kit, in order to keep the bost low, we had to run a much larger pulley. We were seeing 600rwhp when properly tuned, on a STOCK setup. Well, the pulley was so freaking large, that it was hitting the hood, so we had to run a slightly smaller pulley. This upped our boost higher than we wanted for our "Manufacturers Tune" kit. So in order to make the kit completely safe, we had to detune the spark tables, and a few other areas. This allows us to run a safe street tune, and clear the stock hood.

What does this mean?? It means with a few keystrokes of a compitent tuner, you will have a much more powerfull car by doing NOTHING.

Although pricing has not been publicly released, it is slated to run very very close to the other kits (Challenger kit). So expect them to retail in the mid 6K range. You CAN upgrade to the 3.XH, for a small fee. It should run right around 400-500 plus polishing. The larger head units are currently not avail in black, so if you had a black 2.8H, and wanted the 3 or 4L head unit, then it would be the cost of the polish, plus the upgrade. Hope that clarifys a few things.

Be looking out for new dyno sheets very soon, along with videos.

Please feel free to ask any technical question you like. Also, if you are interested in having one installed, hit us up. Theres no better place in the country, then the place that helps design them.

Both my company and Kenne Bell are in the process of becoming supporting vendors of this site, so dont hesitate to let us know your opinions. We will do our best to help in any way possible.

Jeff
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:39 PM   #32
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The kit is completely done. If you called and ordered one from TPE right this second, it would ship the first few days of feb.

We will be installing the first production kit in the coming weeks. This is not one of those kits where its being released without being avail.

Due to the holidays, there was a delay on some gearsets from europe, as well as the rear inlets. We are expecting to have the inlets in the next few days, and the gearsets shortly after that. Then, they need to be assembled.

HTH
Quote:
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Are these blowers actually "available"? As in, can you really buy one and bolt it on your Camaro?
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:43 PM   #33
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1) Yes, the TB is a major restriction. The inlet was designed to be modular, and accept a variety of different size TB's. Currently, we have TB's all the way to 110MM's. But the largest restriction of all, and the part that was given the most possible attention, was the inlet. Now, its a monster. It flows like no tomorrow.

2nd question) No..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
Thirdly, the throttle body and see how much bigger it is than the stock (even if you port the stock). This has a huge bottleneck on performance, if it's not large enough. In fact the new Mustange GT for 2011, has changed theirs to the shape and size of KB.

The big question is, do you have to cut the hood or drop the engine?
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:50 PM   #34
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I know I'm interested in the results you find when you run a production unit. It'll be interesting to see how dissimilar/similar the results will be with other SCs out there. Can you tell me if it's going to also be run on a 100% stock SS?

Thanks and I look forward to the upcoming information
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Old 01-11-2010, 02:51 PM   #35
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This is where the new patented design comes into play. YES, there is still an intercooler

Think of it as 2 cooling circuits. The first circuit is designed specifically to balance the head unit temps from back to front. By keeping these temps stable, it allows for a better operating, cooler head unit. The temp differential from back to front, is huge. By adding the head unit cooling, it balances them out, thus aiding in a cooler discharge, much greater life of front seals, and better overall durability. If you think of thermal expansion, then factor in bearings at both ends, plus add in rotors, you will quickly understand why it is so critical. Especially when you ingest ambient air in the rear, then compress it, and heat it up, finally discharging it at the front.

The 2nd circuit is for the intercooler itself. This is an air/water system that sits directly below the discharge port.

So with both systems you get a much cooler, much more balanced system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JM10 View Post
So, no intercooler under the radiator?
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:20 PM   #36
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The car is 100% stock.

Its a stock SS2 RS, with about 1500 miles. We are installing cutouts, but they most likely wont be on at that time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I know I'm interested in the results you find when you run a production unit. It'll be interesting to see how dissimilar/similar the results will be with other SCs out there. Can you tell me if it's going to also be run on a 100% stock SS?

Thanks and I look forward to the upcoming information
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:28 PM   #37
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So no changing of injectors?.......and also is the washer fluid reservoir relocated?
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:39 PM   #38
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Yes, injectors will be changed, but that comes with the kit. The WW reservoir is replaced, and relocated to the other side.
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So no changing of injectors?.......and also is the washer fluid reservoir relocated?
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Old 01-11-2010, 03:42 PM   #39
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Perfect.
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:10 PM   #40
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The car is 100% stock.

Its a stock SS2 RS, with about 1500 miles. We are installing cutouts, but they most likely wont be on at that time.
Jeff,
Is this kit going to have a C.A.R.B. EO number for us California guys?

thanks
Dean
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Old 01-11-2010, 04:15 PM   #41
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Absofreakinglutely....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilydean View Post
Jeff,
Is this kit going to have a C.A.R.B. EO number for us California guys?

thanks
Dean
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:31 PM   #42
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Are there any plans on making the 3.6 and 4.2 in black? I'm not really into the polished look.
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Old 01-11-2010, 05:44 PM   #43
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Not at the moment. The company cutting the housings in europe is only shipping in polish. I could see it much later down the road, but nothing in the immediate. I too prefer black, but one of the things you can do to offset it, is run a black front cover, and black rear inlet. This really breaks up the bling look.


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Are there any plans on making the 3.6 and 4.2 in black? I'm not really into the polished look.
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Old 01-11-2010, 06:13 PM   #44
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What mods are required to fit the 3.6 or 4.2 under the hood?? Will the stock hood work??
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Old 01-11-2010, 06:31 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Total_Perf_Eng View Post
Hey All,

Some of you may know our compay from other GM KB products, but some of you may not.

I have been working closely with Kenne Bell since 2004 designing the LS based twin screw kits. We became involved with them on the original C5 kit, and have continued to aid in design and R&D since then.

When it comes to this kit, and the system in general, we are probably the most knowledgeable in the industry. That being said, I will be more than happy to answer pretty much any question yu may have. Chances are, if you call KB, they will refer you to me anyways.

BUT, this kit is a COMPLETE redesign from the ground up. From the lower manifold, to the new patented head unit, to the anxiously awaited redesigned inlet manifold. It carrys nothing from the original C5 kit (For a few reasons.) Lets just say we learned ALOT from that system.

Although originally we had anticipated a final release on 1/1/10, we have had to push back the release until right around 2/1/10. This has nothing to do with the kit itself, we are just waiting on a few shipments of some gears, and 100 of the inlet manifolds. But the lkit is 100% complete, and the car is actually sitting on the dyno. The instructions are written, and final. We did have to make a few changes for the automatic at the last minute, but that has already been addressed.

I will be installing the very first production unit around the first week of Feb, as well as showing you guys the 3.xH on the dyno. We have a purpose built 416 stroker that was built to pop... What do I mean??? well, were gonna kep turning the wick up until she blows. .Were gonna start with the 2.8, then go to the 3 and 4L head units. we want to show the capabilities of each unit in a purpose built application.

I can tell you this though. In the production kit, in order to keep the bost low, we had to run a much larger pulley. We were seeing 600rwhp when properly tuned, on a STOCK setup. Well, the pulley was so freaking large, that it was hitting the hood, so we had to run a slightly smaller pulley. This upped our boost higher than we wanted for our "Manufacturers Tune" kit. So in order to make the kit completely safe, we had to detune the spark tables, and a few other areas. This allows us to run a safe street tune, and clear the stock hood.

What does this mean?? It means with a few keystrokes of a compitent tuner, you will have a much more powerfull car by doing NOTHING.

Although pricing has not been publicly released, it is slated to run very very close to the other kits (Challenger kit). So expect them to retail in the mid 6K range. You CAN upgrade to the 3.XH, for a small fee. It should run right around 400-500 plus polishing. The larger head units are currently not avail in black, so if you had a black 2.8H, and wanted the 3 or 4L head unit, then it would be the cost of the polish, plus the upgrade. Hope that clarifys a few things.

Be looking out for new dyno sheets very soon, along with videos.

Please feel free to ask any technical question you like. Also, if you are interested in having one installed, hit us up. Theres no better place in the country, then the place that helps design them.

Both my company and Kenne Bell are in the process of becoming supporting vendors of this site, so dont hesitate to let us know your opinions. We will do our best to help in any way possible.

Jeff
Total Performance Engineering
WOW, Thankyou, very valuable information.
I had a couple questions specific to my application, but likely to be of interest to other camaro owners?

- You mentioned some last minute changes to the Automatic version; can you elaborate as I have the 2SS L99 car?

- What’s the boost for the stock Automatic application, and if in the future I wish to see 12psi with a mild cam, (already have long tubes and a tune) would I be better off considering the 3.6L unit? I mean there must be a place were you move away from the 2.8s sweet spot and into that of the 3.6. Where might that be? Does the upgrade to the 3.6 factor in a larger belt drive? (is it required?)

- You mentioned a cooling system to equalize head temperature. Does the coolant run through a heat exchanger, or just circulate to equalize the temperature across the head unit? (I see the logic in this, you can keep closer tolerances between the rotors and housing else the back end might have more expansion than the parts in the front.)

- With my modifications (long tubes, and proposed blower cam), should I consider upgrading my TB?

- It was interesting that you mentioned the need to run a smaller pulley (higher boost) for clearance and then detune at the computer to keep the combination streatable. What boost does this turn out to be, whats excluded in the tuner kit (which I assume I need with cam and exhaust)?

Thanks again, I wish I lived in Vegas.
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Old 01-11-2010, 06:44 PM   #46
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You will not get the 4.2 to fit unles you plan on a serious hood change. That head unit is really for only the hardcore racer, or the street rod guy. It is useless on anything streetable. The 3.6 will be more than capable for everything up to about 1300-1400rwhp, and 450cid.

The 3.6 is still being "Massaged" but will most likely require a hood swap/trim also. We are working on a few alternatives, but its most likely gonna fall under the "Hood Needed" catagory as well. But surprisingly, its not much larger than the 2.8H.

Please keep in mind that the 2.8H will FAR surpass any normal customers needs. The 2.8 has already been ran to just under 1200rwhp, so it is definately no slouch. This is kinda how we determine what headunit you need.

Stock 364cid motor, or forged low/moderate boost= 2.6
Stroker motor, or high boost (15psi+)= 2.8H
Large stroker motor (Above 427cid) or REALLY high boost= 3.6H
Pure freaking insanity, ALL OUT drag car, or 500+cid = 4.xH

The 2.6 has been taken to just under 800rwhp, and 798rwtq. The 2.8 has been taken to just under 1200rwhp (On ford Motor). The 3.6H has already seen multiple 1150+rwhp runs, and its still in prototyping.
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What mods are required to fit the 3.6 or 4.2 under the hood?? Will the stock hood work??
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Old 01-11-2010, 07:21 PM   #47
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do you have a website to order them from?
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Old 01-11-2010, 07:57 PM   #48
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Being that were not completely set up with this forum as a vendor yet, i'd prefer to wait at giving that stuff out. We have sent in their required docs, so im assuming by tomorrow we can provide that stuff.
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do you have a website to order them from?
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Old 01-11-2010, 07:58 PM   #49
Speed74SS

 
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Drives: 2010 LPE 650+ CTS-V
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Posts: 1,640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
Man, what are you doing up in SD at 4:05 AM reading car articles?
Yes, the article was a bit biased, but still KB and Whipple are excellent PD S/C. I wish I could have one of each (Maggie, KN and Whipple)
Lol - have to head out on the road early this morning.....and I am addicted to this site.

I love the information on this site and all the S/C options. It's fun to see all these coming out and compared on our cars. The KB's have always seemed like good blowers and I have heard a lot about them. I love the Maggie that I have on my car and can't wait to see the KB's running too. I also love seeing the different S/C options and "friendly" comparisons.
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'10 CTS-V : LPE 650+ Package 587hp / 582tq

2.55 Upper / 8.6 Lower / ID850's / Kooks Longtubes / New Era CAI
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Old 01-11-2010, 08:05 PM   #50
ZZcamaro


 
Drives: 2SS w/ ZZ427 Package!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,706
I expect to have these systems listed on my website tomorrrow sometime. KB has some great kits out there and I am sure this will be no different.

If anybody needs more info, please feel free to contact me, I will do my best to hook you up.
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