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Old 08-20-2008, 04:14 PM   #1
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Hmm...higher octane?

So, I was thinking about this, if we reflashed the ecu to run on 93 octane... I wonder how much hp we would gain...?
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:48 AM   #2
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I don't know. Maybe a bunch, maybe none at all. Not sure.
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:50 AM   #3
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probably not that much only so much can be earned throught timing.and timings is all you gain with higher octane fuel
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Old 08-21-2008, 11:49 AM   #4
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Apparently, the L76 in the G8 GT gains near 40hp when reflashed for premium...

I wonder what role the Direct Injection and VVT could play as far as timing and increased power output. The potential could be great.
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:07 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Apparently, the L76 in the G8 GT gains near 40hp when reflashed for premium...

I wonder what role the Direct Injection and VVT could play as far as timing and increased power output. The potential could be great.
That's a great thought! We need to test this out when HPTuners becomes available with a variety of octanes.
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:13 PM   #6
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Apparently, the L76 in the G8 GT gains near 40hp when reflashed for premium...

I wonder what role the Direct Injection and VVT could play as far as timing and increased power output. The potential could be great.
This is true, but it's also entirely possible that because of the actual function of VVT (adjust timing to avoid knock) and the complex algorithms in the ECM from the factory, this gain could be totally very small or totally negated.
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:45 PM   #7
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Apparently, the L76 in the G8 GT gains near 40hp when reflashed for premium...

I wonder what role the Direct Injection and VVT could play as far as timing and increased power output. The potential could be great.
IF, and thats a big if, the LLT gains about the same, we could see 330hp at the wheels with just a tune, cai and exhaust Thats Pretty nice for a v6 with minor mods.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:06 PM   #8
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Its more horses than the challenger R/T has, and still lighter too. But would you really need to reflash for premium to gain that much? Maybe just a dyno tune in general would do the trick.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:12 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowsong View Post
IF, and thats a big if, the LLT gains about the same, we could see 330hp at the wheels with just a tune, cai and exhaust Thats Pretty nice for a v6 with minor mods.
In another spread, there was a post that suggested that we could see even more benefit than that without endangering the motor.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:13 PM   #10
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In another spread, there was a post that suggested that we could see even more benefit than that without endangering the motor.
Got a link? I'd like to read into it
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:56 PM   #11
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IF, and thats a big if, the LLT gains about the same, we could see 330hp at the wheels with just a tune, cai and exhaust Thats Pretty nice for a v6 with minor mods.
That 40 HP bump was on a V8, with two more cylinders realizing a power gain.

And 330HP at the wheels is close to 380HP at the crank, the same amount of HP the stock L76 (6.0L V8) makes.

Also, the power may be 330 HP at the wheels, but what is the average HP compared to an equivalent HP V8? Probably a lot less, with torque also being less.

I agree, the power gains for the V6 sound very impressive for a cheaper motor (than the V8), but I don't want people to think that their V6 will be a V8 beater...(well maybe a GT beater )
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Old 08-24-2008, 07:25 PM   #12
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Its more horses than the challenger R/T has, and still lighter too. But would you really need to reflash for premium to gain that much? Maybe just a dyno tune in general would do the trick.
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Well, what exactly do you think you're tuning on the dyno? Yup, you're tuning the fuel map of ECU (aka-flashing)! So essentially you're referring to the exact same thing.
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Old 08-24-2008, 09:45 PM   #13
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the direct injection engine doesnt benefit allot from changing the octane because it injects the fuel directly into the cylinder right before the apex of the cylinder stroke so it. so there is no threat of detonation.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:11 AM   #14
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The engine control probably will be able to detect the octane level and make adjustments without programming anything. That's part of how high compression engines self tune to reduce knock.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:50 AM   #15
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headpunter has it exactly right.

DI works very similarly to a diesel engine, in that it has a vastly more powerful fuel pump in order to atomize fuel into a cylinder near top dead center of the compression stroke. Main differences of course being that it's injecting gasoline and that it has a spark plug in there too to initiate combustion. There is virtually NO chance of detonation, because the cylinder is not compressing fuel/air mixture, it is compressing air. Compressed air doesn't detonate. Timing retardation to avoid detonation is now more a function of the ECM's fuel injector timing than it is cam phase. This means a lot of good things: 1, that you can run ridiculous CR with crappy 85 octane gas. 2, if someone were to boost this engine, intercooling is less mandatory, as the atomization of fuel into the hot, extremely high-pressure combustion chamber at near TDC has a remarkably effective cooling effect.

To be more on topic though, Premium gas doesn't contain more energy than regular. It just has a lower flash point, meaning you can compress it in an air mixture to a higher point without it detonating. This why the LS3 recommends premium. The 3.6 DI doesn't care what it burns because the fuel doesn't enter the combustion chamber until the air in that chamber has completed almost all of its compression. People get the idea in their heads (understandably) that premium gas = go faster because typically higher performance engines have required premium, this because of higher compression ratios. (higher CR = more performance per displacement)

Premium will most likely have little to no effect on performance in the 3.6l VVT DI V6. Now, boosting, on the other hand...
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:52 AM   #16
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the direct injection engine doesnt benefit allot from changing the octane because it injects the fuel directly into the cylinder right before the apex of the cylinder stroke so it. so there is no threat of detonation.



Awww beat me to it!
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:21 AM   #17
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Is there any info on estimated city MPG?
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:35 PM   #18
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Is there any info on estimated city MPG?
5mpg....



yes im serious...


about you using the search function...
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:40 PM   #19
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5mpg....



yes im serious...


about you using the search function...
Hey you don't have to be like that. It's a discusson forum and we are talking about fuel. I am just trying to get a better picture of the engine.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:14 AM   #20
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Hey you don't have to be like that. It's a discusson forum and we are talking about fuel. I am just trying to get a better picture of the engine.
not trying to be an ass to ya, just making a point. instead of posting the same questions over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over, we have the little search button that will lead you to the threads with these topics already being discused. and its not all aimed at you, there's plenty more others that are doing it every day lol.
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Old 08-27-2008, 08:38 AM   #21
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I used to be in the business of tuning (for subarus) and going from say 87 or 89 to 91 or 93 isn't going to get you very much. There just isn't a ton of room there to increase timing. Especially with the crap CA91 gas california and a few other western states get. That stuff is garbage so the cali cars will never make the same power (safely) as in say NJ or Texas.

Now if you start mixing Torco into your tank that is another story. with 32 oz of Torco in NJ 93 octane it brought a 4 banger turbo up to about 100 octane mix. Which on the dyno cars would go from 280 HP to about 310. Again that is allowing more timing and boost without knock. So when you are only moving 2 points of octane you might get like 5-7 HP on AN ALREADY TUNED CAR.

The reason the G8 sees 40 HP is because the car isn't opimized from the factory for racing. It is a mix between MPG and performance and reliability. You can tune ANY car from the factory with a nice ECU only gain.

So simply tuning the G8 for the same gas (say 87) would get you 20-30 Hp. Then tuning it for 93 octane would get you another 5-7 HP. Then from there you only have room to make more power as you add mods. But there is always a gain from tuning an ECU.

My guess is the new V6 will be putting down about 265 HP at the wheels. Tune it back fro ECU maybe 280-285 and for premium 290 TOPS at that wheels

The V8 will dyno about 385-390 at the wheels (vettes have seen 400). Tune the car for 93 again since it already requires it and you will maybe see 405 at the wheels.

Im not sure how well NA cars take to tunes b/c there is a benefit to boosted cars in tuning. NA cars can't "turn up boost" to make more power. You can only adjust AFR's and lean out the car to a safe point then you are really done.
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:03 PM   #22
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Oh hey, has this question in my head for a while and this topic seems perfect for it.

The thing is, in Europe there're two types of gasoline and both pretty hi-octane, that is 95 and 98.
New cars for european market (since about 1995 or earlier) have engine systems able to distinguish between the two (or somehow detect octane number of fuel) and thus burn 98 more efficiently, giving the engine a bit more kick (dynamics, that is).

My question is, could Camaro also do it (behave better on 98)? Or is it made specifically for american market dominated by 87-93 octane gasoline and thus won't distinguish a 95 from 98, having same performance and feeling on both?
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Old 08-27-2008, 01:11 PM   #23
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The computer has fuel maps that determine how to handle the diferent octane levels. I'm not sure if the US Cars will have an Octane map for levels that high. But a reflash will allow them to be added if needed.
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Old 08-27-2008, 03:01 PM   #24
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Aye it should have it already built in to the ecm. When I was young and dumb in the 80's and had my 78 I would put super or Howell Racing Fuel 104 thinking it was better. All it was doing was fouling my plugs.
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Old 08-27-2008, 05:00 PM   #25
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The guy who talked about subarus has the right idea. You can get a few hp from tuning to run on a higher octane, but not that much. I've heard that the G8 is an exception because it was basically an LS2 in disguise ready to run 91 and have the same 400hp. But that's even a bit questionable.




I think the Camaro V6 is going to be cool, but I think some people are overestimating it and thinking it's going to be able to run 12s for 25k. That'd be great. But it's obviously way optimistic. You should really do some real research before getting your hopes up. Stop believing what you hope is true and start believing what is likely to be true. I hope a V6 Camaro whoops a Mustang GT, but it's not likely to happen. It'd be the ultimate burn, but let's be realistic.
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