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Old 01-25-2010, 02:25 AM   #26
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There has never, and I dare say never will be a better running back than Barry Sanders...

no line, no QB, no recievers, and no defense to speak of...

QB's ,

1.) Rodger the Dodger, He played at a time when I personally did not care at all for the cowboys... I grew up a Packers fan... but if you were in the last two minutes of a game and trailing by only a couple of scores, hang on to your hats and don't sit down or blink... Staubach could do and did more in the final two minutes than any I ever saw play...

2.) Johnny Unitas, yup, someone mentioned he hasn't proved himself against the calibre of player of today... Dooohhhhh , who has that played in the sixties... an average lineman was 250, and considered more or less fat, the backs were in the 180's the linebackers were in the 210's, and not one of them in that day and age could compete against the current leagues best... Yeah computer ratings are out there, so what... proof is in the day to day comparison... 1969 Camaro was a bad motorscooter, but it doesn't compare to what many of us drive today...Johhny Unitas was a man among men,, and to many in the league, he was a man among boys... Leader, Athlete, etc...

3.) John Elway... he of the Elway Cross.... recievers didn't like to catch passes in practice from him, he hurt their hands and left crosses on their bodies... A cannon mounted on his shoulder, improved with age...

4.) Bart Star, the Leading on the field piece in a Dynasty that may never be matched... Yeah the Steelers on the seventies, and the Cowboys of the 80's, the Patriots, etc... But, IMO, the Packers were the Original and still true dynasty... and Star and Max McGee were two of the reasons for that...

5.) Terry Bradshaw... wow, fun to watch, amazing timing and what a cut up...

6.) Joe Montana/Steve Young...I put them together for a reason... joe was dammit good, and he had motivation... He got to watch Steve Young in practice everyday and say to himself,... self, I better put up amazing numbers or he will take my job... and Steve Young for knowing how good he was, and being the team player he was to sit on the pine behind joe for so those years he would have started for any other team in the league, and then being humble when it was handed to him and had the country going holy hell,,, where has this guy been...

7.) Peyton Manning.... The modern day warrior, smart, athletic, personable, and what a leader... Coach's that try to work on anything with him other than a little pep talk once in a while are idiots... Peyton, a true student of the game since birth or maybe in his case before... has forgotten more than most will ever learn about the game of football...

8--- on down... there is a host...

Those not mentioned from the class of 83... Jim Kelly,, Dan Marino, etc...
Don Schula, Kenny Stabler... a game wrecker, a bad boy on a bad boys team...
Brett Favre, Love him, but... everybody needs to know when to bow out... Thx Elway... , Ben, got lots to prove yet... ala jim McMahon, one trip with too much talent around you to lose doesn't count...
I can live with that list. Very deserving guys. And you scored point from me for putting Kelly as at least a mention. He's not top 10 but he's one of the great.
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:18 AM   #27
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All the major game changes to me, happend when Favre threw to the wrong team.

And if it was favre making the play calls he should get shiet canned, or who ever was.

only needed 1 field goal to win but hey lets let the old man throw it one more time......... [he threw the game on purpose, weather he mentally knew it or not. Unconscious self-sabotage is a problem for many professionals.]
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:23 PM   #28
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All the major game changes to me, happend when Favre threw to the wrong team.

And if it was favre making the play calls he should get shiet canned, or who ever was.

only needed 1 field goal to win but hey lets let the old man throw it one more time......... [he threw the game on purpose, weather he mentally knew it or not. Unconscious self-sabotage is a problem for many professionals.]
They were out of field goal range and needed to throw down field........
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Old 01-25-2010, 05:36 PM   #29
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He had 5 to 7 yards if he ran and that would of gave them a chance from 50 yards and the Vikings would have won that game cuz Longwell wouldn't have missed. Just saying!!!
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:12 PM   #30
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This has earned a RANT, Sorry but you do not have to read it...

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All the major game changes to me, happend when Favre threw to the wrong team.

And if it was favre making the play calls he should get shiet canned, or who ever was.

only needed 1 field goal to win but hey lets let the old man throw it one more time......... [he threw the game on purpose, weather he mentally knew it or not. Unconscious self-sabotage is a problem for many professionals.]


Is this your expert medical opinion derived from years of study... I, unfortunately, wasn't able to watch the game, and this reply doesn't address this game in particular, but professional athletes... and
"unconscious self-whatever the hell you said" Self refers to an individual, yet, he in your opinion, obviously caused the whole team to lose, and Minnesota residents... and the League, and .....

I don't know or profess to know what ticks in their minds, but I can say this beyond a shadow of a doubt... as I am the father of a professional athlete talented enough to have been drafted, signed, and has played two years already...

There are those in professional sports that lose sight of why they are there.. money, fame, glory, whatever. There is not one athlete there that isn't deserving to be there... and none of them got there inspite of their "Unconscious self-sabotage" BS. If you think there are athletes in the pro's that shouldn't be there, then you need to pay more attention. At the very minimum, the pro athletes we watch on TV throughout the year, almost certainly make at least 350,000 to 400,000 a year, roughly league minimum for a first year player... The business people that own these teams, regardless of your personal thoughts, are very astute, clean or dirty matters not, honest or dishonest, whatever... they got lots of damn money, and they did not get it by signing players that haven't done something to earn that recognition. Do some of them fail, sure, team dynamics, personality conflicts, coaching styles, or game management... The incredible detail that goes into every moment of preparation for a game, much less a season is beyond your comprehension...obviously... or you're "unconsciously self sabotaging" your ability to see it... Thats a problem for many armchair QB's, pitchers, point guards etc... I guess...

The game is over, look forward to the superbowl and watch it or don't, I don't care, but leave the medical mumbo jumbo psychiatric armchair nonsense out of it... Get over it....

Brett Favre, win or lose is the comsumate athlete and competitor... He tries to win with every fiber of his being, and whether you like it or not, given the same situation, I would hope they do the same thing...

GIVE... FARVE, MANNING, BREES, Kelly, Sanders, Smith, Aikman, Elway, Bush, Jordan, Robinson, Majic, Rose, Ryan, The Big Unit, and a thousand other SUPERSTARS etc....THE BALL...You put it in the hands of the guy most likely to make the play...


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Old 01-25-2010, 07:20 PM   #31
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I can live with that list. Very deserving guys. And you scored point from me for putting Kelly as at least a mention. He's not top 10 but he's one of the great.
Agreed,

The Class of 83 will, in my estimation never be matched, Led by Kelly, Marino, Elway etc... Wow... By far the best GROUP to ever come into the league.... The best of them is arguable due to the personnel around them... Put Kelly in Miami, Marino in Denver and Elway at Buffalo, certainly it's a different picture...or any others of the class...
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:57 AM   #32
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Mike and Mike just had TJ from the Blitz on and they talked about Peyton Manning.



TJ played with, against or reported on every major QB since Roger the Dodger, and he is convinced without a doubt that Peyton Manning is the best to ever play the game.


He calls him the 'Football Genius'
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:49 PM   #33
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I see no one has mentioned Bob Griese Miami Dolphins played from 1967-1980.
2 Super Bowls wins (VII and VIII) and a perfect season (1972).

Edit; Earl Morrall led Miami to victory in their nine remaining games of the perfect "72" season.

And just for good measure let me throw out some very good old time QB`s.

1. Milt Plum. Cleveland Browns

2. Y. A. Tittle. N.Y. Giants

3. Jack Kemp. Detroit Lions (Drafted and cut), Pittsburgh Steelers, taxi squads of the San Francisco 49ers & New York Giants, (Old AFL. Los Angeles-San Diego Chargers, Buffalo Bills)

As for Jim Kelly they (the Bills) may have lost 4 strait Super Bowls but I doubt that any QB with any team will ever make it there 4 strait year!

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Old 02-06-2010, 08:19 AM   #34
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Peyton Manning has won league MVP more times than Terry Bradshaw made the probowl.
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:05 AM   #35
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Manning is good, but not THAT good. If he wins tomorrow and plays a couple more years at the same level, I'll put him at the top of my list.
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:09 AM   #36
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Manning is good, but not THAT good. If he wins tomorrow and plays a couple more years at the same level, I'll put him at the top of my list.
I agree, but I still think he is better than guys like Bradshaw
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Old 02-06-2010, 12:34 PM   #37
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I agree, but I still think he is better than guys like Bradshaw


Pure Passer.
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Old 02-07-2010, 12:49 PM   #38
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Since I have been watching Football at the age of 6 (1994), I remember


Dan Marino
Brett Favre
Tom Brady
Troy Aikman
Jon Elway
Peyton Manning
Steve Young
Warren Moon
Jim Kelly

I don't remember anybody in the NFL (since 94) that deserves to be on the list of the "top 10". I know I included 9, and that's my opinion.

I always go for my Dolphnins first, then I go for a good game. Brady will more than likely be on the list of the top 5 QB's ever. He hasn't even been in the NFL for 10 years and he's being considered 1 of the best? Give him some receivers without hands & an offensive line that has a combined weight of 800 pounds, then let's see how he holds up. I can guarantee you that all of the QB's on this list could have gone to 4 SB's with the team that Brady had.


Since #10 was bugging you so much, I'll just include Kordell Stewart.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:53 AM   #39
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Peyton Manning has won league MVP more times than Terry Bradshaw made the probowl.
Bradshaw has 4 Super bowls which mean much more than MVP's.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:08 AM   #40
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Bradshaw has 4 Super bowls which mean much more than MVP's.
That depends on what your evaluating. If your evaluating an individual's career, like we are, then why would you use a team accomplishment over an individual accomplishment?

Simple, you wouldn't.
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Old 02-08-2010, 09:15 AM   #41
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Well, I sort of compare what your saying to a nascar driver. It's like winning poles, and races but never completing it and winning a championship. Until you win the big game everything else you do is a mute point.
exactly, it's all about the Super bowl wins, just like all you Brady lovers go by.
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:48 AM   #42
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Well, I sort of compare what your saying to a nascar driver. It's like winning poles, and races but never completing it and winning a championship. Until you win the big game everything else you do is a mute point.
Horrible comparison.

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exactly, it's all about the Super bowl wins, just like all you Brady lovers go by.



I don't know if I have the patience for this conversation
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:23 AM   #43
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I would say that comparison is right on. Sorry , but that's the way I feel.

There were a lot of great QB's that didn't win the big game and because of that they are just a little under the great ones that did. And What I'm talking about is comparing the greats to the greats. Some went all the way and some came up short. No different than Nascar. Some won races put couldn't get it completely done so they are just a little less than the ones that did.

Tell me, what's the goal in playing football? To have great stats or to win the superbowl. Just like nascar is all about winning a championship, football is about winning the superbowl. If you never get it done then your just another stat.
The question is not what the goal is, but what is needed to achieve it.

Lets say for discussion purposes, that Joe Montana was the best QB to ever play the game.


Now you put him the Lions or the Bills...

How many Superbowls does he win? Is he any less of a Quarterback because his team doesn't have what it takes to win a Superbowl?



Are the Saints RB's any greater than Barry Sanders because they have more rings?

No of course not, that would be a ridiculous assumption.



QB's often get too much blame for games going the wrong way, and too much credit when all they do is manage the game. The Colts loose, its because Peyton can't win the big game. Not because the Colts Defense couldn't keep the Saint's off the field, not because Reggie Wayne dropped a pass in the enzone on 4th and goal, but because Peyton didn't have what it takes. Ridiculous.

How bout a couple years ago with Eli Manning, he plays on a team (much like Terry Bradshaw did) dominated by their Defense and running game, all he had to do was manage the game and make sure they moved the chains on 3rd down... So he did. They rode them all the way to the superbowl, and now he is an elite QB because he has a ring? Yea right.

My roomate in college was the biggest steeler fan of all time, and he would be the first to tell you Bradshaw was a top 10 QB at best.


And for the record Racecar driving is a poor example because it is not a team sport in the same sense that Football, Baseball, Hockey, etc...
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:52 AM   #44
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That depends on what your evaluating. If your evaluating an individual's career, like we are, then why would you use a team accomplishment over an individual accomplishment?

Simple, you wouldn't.
"team accomplishment over an individual accomplishment?" Is it possible to seperate these two... really...??? Barry Sanders is as close to a one man team as I ever witnessed, and he only won a co-MVP in 1997...Yet he was a ten time pro bowler, and missed by ten yards the League Rushing title in his rookie year... He didn't win more MVP's because he had nothing around him to speak of...IMO

Despite the loss in the Superbowl yesterday, Manning has still moved up on my personal list... as has Brees, though Manning is still far ahead of Brees.

I tried to factor in some of the intangibles in my list, but you bring up the MVP vs Championships... Super Bowls etc...

MVP, most valuable player... a comparison against the other players....
on his team, in the conference, in the league... subjective

Superbowls, a comparison of the same in direct head to head competition... objective

Terry Bradshaw won four superbowls, and won back to back Superbowl MVP's, something only previously done by Bart Starr... QB's are often too much in the limelight... and get too much credit for failures and accomplishments... Barry Sanders won the League MVP one time, in 1997, and depending on whom you talk to that was a co-mvp award... I feel that is a travesty... Why did he not win more MVP's... because his team never amounted to much...they never got to the big show while he was there, does that make him less of a player, nope, just unlucky in some peoples eyes...If Indy wasn't going so deep in the playoffs every year, Manning wouldn't be getting the recognition he is...

Yes he is a GREAT player, but there is a tremendous line, backs, and defense around him, an intangible is that he is part of the influence that makes those others better, IMO, but there it is...

This is how I considered Terry Bradshaw and the others on "my" list... all in all, it's an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own...

As for Superbowl MVP's... how about Garrett Hartley... yup, three field goals over 40 yards in his first appearance, kept the Saints within reach, upon the scoreboard and in their heads until the rest of the team could get their act together...
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:53 AM   #45
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You really don't under stand racing if you say it's not a team sport. The driver will never win a race without someone that has the ability to build the car, someone to set up the cars, someone to build great motors that last, someone give get them through quick pit stops, someone to help the driver see on the track, a crew chief to make the right call at the right moment. It's as much as a team effort as any other sport. That's why it's a fare comparison to make.
Back to Joe Montana you never know, he might not of had the stat's with out that great 49er team to back him up.
My point.


Superbowls don't = best of all time.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:16 PM   #46
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How did that make your point when your argument is that it's the man not the man and his team. Boy you took a 180 pretty quick. How about we both bang our heads off the key board three times and agree to disagree.


Superbowls don't equal best of all time ,but for me to make the list you need to have at least one superbowl. Stats were made up by losers that need some way to make themselves feel better about not being able to win the big game.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:27 PM   #47
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You have to be kidding. I just spent the last half dozen posts talking about how its the team and not the man.



If your not following then this is clearly a conversation better suited for someone else.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:54 PM   #48
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This is where I picked up from. And your talking about just because a QB didn't win a superbowl doesn't mean he should make the list.

No... I'm saying it shouldn't be the most significant point of comparison.

Thus putting your guys ahead of Bradshaw. What I was saying is in order to make the list they should a least win one superbowl.

I would tend to agree with that, except that Dan Marino is clearly a top 5 QB who never won a Superbowl

I don't see were your talking about the QB and the team.

I called the superbowl a 'Team Accomplishment'. How can I make it any more clear?

What is the the big prize? It's the superbowl. So, you can take an Qb with great stats and compare him with one with less stats but even one superbowl ring put him ahead as far as I'm concerned.

Well thats your opinion.

I never saw them ask the losing QB at the end of the game what there doing after the superbowl ,and that's because know body cares.

Ok

Edit: I think you might be the one that doesn't get it. Pretty low blow to call someone stupid because they don't agree with you.

I implied you weren't following because you clearly weren't and this post proves it. I didn't imply you were stupid for dissagreeing with me... that would be stupid.
Who is the best quarterback playing in the National Football league right now?
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:08 PM   #49
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Well, that's pretty obvious. Drew Brees.

And that's because no matter what Manning did all year long. He didn't win the only one that counts. I think the problem is you kind of changed the argument. You do what a lot of folks do on here and pick up on one or two words without really seeing what someone is trying to say. I do the same thing sometimes. You kind of went in another direction from what the topic was when I first chimed in. I don't fault you as it is hard to read some by just seeing words and not hearing them in person. I hold no grudges with you and it's just a game. It comes down to we just don't agree on how we rate QB's. It's really not the end of the world.
And Peyton Manning would be the better player had the cards fallen differently last night?


I get what your saying, and yes it's just a game. Nothing to get heated about, and I'm sorry if it appeared I was taking it too seriously.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:21 PM   #50
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Just kiss and make up already!!!!
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