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Old 02-08-2010, 10:23 AM   #43
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I would say that comparison is right on. Sorry , but that's the way I feel.

There were a lot of great QB's that didn't win the big game and because of that they are just a little under the great ones that did. And What I'm talking about is comparing the greats to the greats. Some went all the way and some came up short. No different than Nascar. Some won races put couldn't get it completely done so they are just a little less than the ones that did.

Tell me, what's the goal in playing football? To have great stats or to win the superbowl. Just like nascar is all about winning a championship, football is about winning the superbowl. If you never get it done then your just another stat.
The question is not what the goal is, but what is needed to achieve it.

Lets say for discussion purposes, that Joe Montana was the best QB to ever play the game.


Now you put him the Lions or the Bills...

How many Superbowls does he win? Is he any less of a Quarterback because his team doesn't have what it takes to win a Superbowl?



Are the Saints RB's any greater than Barry Sanders because they have more rings?

No of course not, that would be a ridiculous assumption.



QB's often get too much blame for games going the wrong way, and too much credit when all they do is manage the game. The Colts loose, its because Peyton can't win the big game. Not because the Colts Defense couldn't keep the Saint's off the field, not because Reggie Wayne dropped a pass in the enzone on 4th and goal, but because Peyton didn't have what it takes. Ridiculous.

How bout a couple years ago with Eli Manning, he plays on a team (much like Terry Bradshaw did) dominated by their Defense and running game, all he had to do was manage the game and make sure they moved the chains on 3rd down... So he did. They rode them all the way to the superbowl, and now he is an elite QB because he has a ring? Yea right.

My roomate in college was the biggest steeler fan of all time, and he would be the first to tell you Bradshaw was a top 10 QB at best.


And for the record Racecar driving is a poor example because it is not a team sport in the same sense that Football, Baseball, Hockey, etc...
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:52 AM   #44
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That depends on what your evaluating. If your evaluating an individual's career, like we are, then why would you use a team accomplishment over an individual accomplishment?

Simple, you wouldn't.
"team accomplishment over an individual accomplishment?" Is it possible to seperate these two... really...??? Barry Sanders is as close to a one man team as I ever witnessed, and he only won a co-MVP in 1997...Yet he was a ten time pro bowler, and missed by ten yards the League Rushing title in his rookie year... He didn't win more MVP's because he had nothing around him to speak of...IMO

Despite the loss in the Superbowl yesterday, Manning has still moved up on my personal list... as has Brees, though Manning is still far ahead of Brees.

I tried to factor in some of the intangibles in my list, but you bring up the MVP vs Championships... Super Bowls etc...

MVP, most valuable player... a comparison against the other players....
on his team, in the conference, in the league... subjective

Superbowls, a comparison of the same in direct head to head competition... objective

Terry Bradshaw won four superbowls, and won back to back Superbowl MVP's, something only previously done by Bart Starr... QB's are often too much in the limelight... and get too much credit for failures and accomplishments... Barry Sanders won the League MVP one time, in 1997, and depending on whom you talk to that was a co-mvp award... I feel that is a travesty... Why did he not win more MVP's... because his team never amounted to much...they never got to the big show while he was there, does that make him less of a player, nope, just unlucky in some peoples eyes...If Indy wasn't going so deep in the playoffs every year, Manning wouldn't be getting the recognition he is...

Yes he is a GREAT player, but there is a tremendous line, backs, and defense around him, an intangible is that he is part of the influence that makes those others better, IMO, but there it is...

This is how I considered Terry Bradshaw and the others on "my" list... all in all, it's an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own...

As for Superbowl MVP's... how about Garrett Hartley... yup, three field goals over 40 yards in his first appearance, kept the Saints within reach, upon the scoreboard and in their heads until the rest of the team could get their act together...
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Old 02-08-2010, 10:53 AM   #45
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You really don't under stand racing if you say it's not a team sport. The driver will never win a race without someone that has the ability to build the car, someone to set up the cars, someone to build great motors that last, someone give get them through quick pit stops, someone to help the driver see on the track, a crew chief to make the right call at the right moment. It's as much as a team effort as any other sport. That's why it's a fare comparison to make.
Back to Joe Montana you never know, he might not of had the stat's with out that great 49er team to back him up.
My point.


Superbowls don't = best of all time.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:16 AM   #46
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How did that make your point when your argument is that it's the man not the man and his team. Boy you took a 180 pretty quick. How about we both bang our heads off the key board three times and agree to disagree.


Superbowls don't equal best of all time ,but for me to make the list you need to have at least one superbowl. Stats were made up by losers that need some way to make themselves feel better about not being able to win the big game.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:27 AM   #47
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You have to be kidding. I just spent the last half dozen posts talking about how its the team and not the man.



If your not following then this is clearly a conversation better suited for someone else.
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:54 AM   #48
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This is where I picked up from. And your talking about just because a QB didn't win a superbowl doesn't mean he should make the list.

No... I'm saying it shouldn't be the most significant point of comparison.

Thus putting your guys ahead of Bradshaw. What I was saying is in order to make the list they should a least win one superbowl.

I would tend to agree with that, except that Dan Marino is clearly a top 5 QB who never won a Superbowl

I don't see were your talking about the QB and the team.

I called the superbowl a 'Team Accomplishment'. How can I make it any more clear?

What is the the big prize? It's the superbowl. So, you can take an Qb with great stats and compare him with one with less stats but even one superbowl ring put him ahead as far as I'm concerned.

Well thats your opinion.

I never saw them ask the losing QB at the end of the game what there doing after the superbowl ,and that's because know body cares.

Ok

Edit: I think you might be the one that doesn't get it. Pretty low blow to call someone stupid because they don't agree with you.

I implied you weren't following because you clearly weren't and this post proves it. I didn't imply you were stupid for dissagreeing with me... that would be stupid.
Who is the best quarterback playing in the National Football league right now?
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:08 PM   #49
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Well, that's pretty obvious. Drew Brees.

And that's because no matter what Manning did all year long. He didn't win the only one that counts. I think the problem is you kind of changed the argument. You do what a lot of folks do on here and pick up on one or two words without really seeing what someone is trying to say. I do the same thing sometimes. You kind of went in another direction from what the topic was when I first chimed in. I don't fault you as it is hard to read some by just seeing words and not hearing them in person. I hold no grudges with you and it's just a game. It comes down to we just don't agree on how we rate QB's. It's really not the end of the world.
And Peyton Manning would be the better player had the cards fallen differently last night?


I get what your saying, and yes it's just a game. Nothing to get heated about, and I'm sorry if it appeared I was taking it too seriously.
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:21 PM   #50
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:28 PM   #51
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Yes, Peyton would be the man, but he came up short last night. But, really our argument wasn't about Peyton because he already won a ring. So in my book he gets a shot to be up on the list. All I was trying to say is take all the superbowl winners and compare them. Then ,everyone else goes on the list from there.
Yea I know, my original comments were based on how Peyton/Brady/Brees? are all better than Bradshaw even though they don't have the rings.


Bradshaw is a great example of why having the most rings doesn't mean your the best.

Last edited by Zeus; 02-08-2010 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:41 PM   #52
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I've come to the conclusion you just hate the Steelers, Bradshaw was an awesome QB, you just don't like him, Bradshaw has 4 SB's, 2 time SB mvp, led the NFL with 28 td's in 1978. Bradshaw is a top 5 QB.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:29 PM   #53
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I've come to the conclusion you just hate the Steelers, Bradshaw was an awesome QB, you just don't like him, Bradshaw has 4 SB's, 2 time SB mvp, led the NFL with 28 td's in 1978. Bradshaw is a top 5 QB.
There is no way he is a top 5 QB.

Montana
Elway
Brady
Manning
Farve
Marino
Staubach

All better.


I'd put him at 8 if you leave off Unitas.... if not, 9.

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I get you we were arguing two different thing. I do agree with that. The most rings don't make you the best. I just say have a ring should be one of the things needed along with the other stats to put you up on list.

Anyhow Staubach and Aikman were the best ever.
I'd put Staubach above Bradshaw... but Aikman... meeeeeeeeh..... He was just like Bradshaw.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:01 PM   #54
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:13 PM   #55
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[QUOTE=Zeus;1462092]There is no way he is a top 5 QB.

Montana
Elway
Brady
Manning
Farve
Marino
Staubach

All better.


I'd put him at 8 if you leave off Unitas.... if not, 9.



Number 8, yea you are the NFL genius, can I have your autograph, you have Brady at number 3,

Montana
Bradshaw
Elway
Manning
Staubach
Favre
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:36 PM   #56
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[QUOTE=coolman;1462874]
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I think your both wrong putting favre anywhere near the top five.
That wasn't in order, but I'd put him top 7 based on his statistics
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