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Old 08-25-2008, 10:19 AM   #1
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edmunds drives the v6 !!!!!!! ????????

i know there is the car and driver topic .......... but anyway i guess we willhave diferent opinions , PLUS THE STATE THAT IT WILL COST 22K....... i believe it look at g8 pricing is the same car with more doors

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...hotopanel..1.*

First Impressions:
If all the pieces come together as expected, this could be the first small-engine pony car we would consider driving — ever. ...............tough words

Full review:

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It feels good to be on the other side. Recently, we got a chance to pilot a 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 Prototype out on the public highways and byways of southeastern Michigan.

Typically, we're on the other side of this game, pestering development engineers and posting spy shots of some car just like these engineering prototypes of the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6. Heck, as far as we know, we might have run pictures of one or both of these very automobiles.

Yes, these two bits of spy bait still had matte-black camouflage panels (one with triangles made of what looked like white shoe polish), ill-fitting bumper covers, no Chevy bowtie and a bunch of small makeshift headlight elements, all of which taken collectively look a little bit like a rash.

But what do we care? We're driving the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro!

Progress Report
So these prototype cars were rough. Real rough.

How rough? Well, the car with the Aisin-built six-speed manual transmission carried a steering wheel with shift paddles on it. Wait...what? "Oh that," said our passenger, Camaro Chief Engineer Doug Houlihan. "That's a wheel for an automatic car they just threw in here."

And we must say for the record that we will be a bit circumspect about making any major pronouncements about what the production vehicle will be like based on this early drive.

The 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 will not be the lowly poseur's car we've come to expect of the small-engine pony car.

Oh wait, circumspect, right? OK. Well, let's say that if all the parts and pieces come together as planned and the engineers' estimates prove accurate then the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 will not be the lowly...and so forth and so on.

Not the Executive Assistant's Car
The long-standing tradition in pony car circles is to utterly dismiss the six-cylinder version as the ride of choice for sorority girls or guys who are into the vocal stylings of Huey Lewis. When Chevrolet released specifics on the new Camaro, though, the performance details for the V6 model were certainly more surprising than those of the V8.

The 3.6-liter direct-injection V6 is the same 304-horsepower engine as the upgrade engine choice in the Cadillac CTS. Officially, General Motors is saying that the Camaro V6 will make 300 hp even. Except any time you talk to the engineers, they just give you the look and say, "Well...," and then they stop short. So expect a few hp above the magic 300 mark.

Either way, it wasn't that long ago that 300 hp was a number for V8 output. It still is for the Mustang GT's V8 — at least until an upgraded version arrives in the 2010 model. This is 90 hp more than Ford's current Mustang V6 option and, perhaps more distressingly, about 50 hp more than the V6 in the newly introduced Dodge Challenger SE.

Further, the V6 Camaro won't be short on gears (six), or wheel size (18 inches standard) or appeal (use your eyes).

Paint by Numbers
The acceleration numbers we pulled on the 2009 Challenger SE with its mandatory four-speed automatic transmission were as unimpressive as you would expect from a 3,819-pound car with a 250-hp engine. Zero to 60 takes 8.1 seconds. The SE eats up 16.1 seconds traveling through the quarter-mile.

Chevrolet is estimating that the V6 Camaro can get to 60 mph in 6.1 seconds and complete the quarter in 14.4 seconds. That's with either the standard six-speed manual or the optional six-speed automatic. Houlihan thinks that with final tweaking, his team will be able to get that figure down to 5.9 seconds to 60 mph. That's not going to be enough to beat a 350Z, but it would surely take down a Mazda RX-8.

Even accounting for the not exactly impartial source of this information, it's pretty clear the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 will be quick enough to at least get a car enthusiast's attention.

Did You Feel That?
It wasn't as if Houlihan was going to let us strap our VBOX III testing gear to either of the prototypes, head off to the drag strip and pull some numbers on the thing. And our ass-calibration is not accurate enough to register differences measured in tenths of a second. But it felt good. It felt quick enough. The sound? Well, that was a bit of a different story.

We first noticed the sound when we were following the manual-transmission car out of GM's proving grounds in Milford, Michigan. On hard acceleration, the exhaust note sounded synthetic, like an old Pontiac V6 or even some Nissan V6s of the recent past. But the Camaro's voice was pitched even higher and tinnier. "Is that the, uh, final exhaust tuning on the V6?" we ventured without trying to sound too damning.

Gene Stefanyshyn, the Camaro vehicle line executive who was riding on this leg with us, said, "We've just been talking about that. No, we'll be making some changes to that. It's too much, right?"

At about 3,740 pounds, the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 is not a lightweight, but the 300 (or so) horses move its heft with relative ease. This is aided greatly by two reasonably good six-speed transmissions.

The automatic snaps off shifts quickly and smoothly. All autos come with a sequential-shift capability. The driver first puts the console-mounted shifter into the M gate and then shifts with buttons affixed to the top spokes of the steering wheel. The shifter does not toggle between gears; one must use the buttons on the steering wheel. This, according to Houlihan, is something of a cost-containment measure. Being able to shift from both the steering wheel and the shifter would add cost. (With the Camaro V6's projected starting price "in the low $20s," we're not able to swallow this rationalization.) Unfortunately, you cannot get a quick downshift if the shifter is still in Drive.

The manual transmission is the same Aisin six-speed gearbox used in the Cadillac CTS. It doesn't have quite the level of mechanical engagement that we might like, but the gates are easy to find and the action of the mechanism is light.

The Cruise Control

As we trundled along the expressway on our first leg of the day's drive, we were not looking forward to driving the twisty little route that awaited us at the end of this freeway. The Camaro felt kind of big, its steering kind of light and, well, the ride quality of the standard 18-inch wheel-and-tire package implied that boogying might not be part of this car's repertoire.

With high window sills, a tall hood and limited rear three-quarter visibility, the 2010 Camaro is destined to feel a little big and chunky from the driver seat. But once we got to the three roads in the area that actually turn, the Camaro acquitted itself nicely, feeling much more nimble and much less floppy than we expected given its compliant ride. It'll carve a corner without requiring much in the way of steering correction. Heaves and holes do not typically upset the chassis, even when encountered midcorner. This would be one of the benefits of a radical invention (are you listening, Ford?) called an independent rear suspension.

The only complaint we're willing to lodge after such a brief drive is that there's a whole bunch of noise coming from the rear suspension as it traipses over broken pavement. Houlihan says his team is considering a revised sound-deadening package for the rear, but, judging by the fact that he then launched into an explanation about keeping costs down, we're not sure it's likely to change.

We, too, would want to spend money on performance before comfort and sophistication. But if this car is to be a thoroughly modern sport coupe that just happens to have retro cues, then it would seem money well spent. Quelling excessive noise, it seems to us, is one way to increase the perceived quality of the vehicle. We'll see on that one.

Not Yet Entirely Baked
Driving the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro V6 Prototype reminded us exactly how much of the feel of a car is defined by last-minute fine-tuning. Characteristics that seem inherent to the configuration of the powertrain layout or variety of suspension type or size of tire are often enough the result instead of countless minute choices made by unnamed people with sore asses and headaches. Sort of like the GM team in Australia that has done much of the chassis tuning on the Camaro.

Take for example the fact that the 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Prototype with the manual transmission carried optional 19-inch wheels, compared to the automatic car's 18s. Yet the steering in the manual car felt light, indirect and largely unsatisfying. So we asked if the steering system differs significantly from the one in the automatic car — perhaps it's somehow some earlier version that had already been dismissed but not yet updated on that particular prototype.

"No," the answer came. "Those aren't the final 19-inch tires on that car. We're still working with Pirelli on those."

Ah, OK.

Well, the stuff that the team claimed was essentially in final form all felt great. That bodes well. Stay tuned.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:16 AM   #2
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I sensed more complaining in that article. I remember from a video that 'Father mentioned one of the protos' he was driving had more than 200K miles on it (the audience wanted him to do a burnout, but he mentioned the mileage on the car) so I wonder what the mileage was on that particular one, and if it were as high, whether-or-not they were being objective regarding the condition of the car. Not a bad article.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:34 AM   #3
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Noisy rear suspension....

I hope they fix that before production.
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Old 08-25-2008, 11:55 AM   #4
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It says in the article that the manual car had paddle shifters on the steering wheel so they would only have to use the one wheel. (not on production ofcourse) Anyway, i looked at the pictures of the manual car that they have, and i assume since i cant see the paddles, it means that they're not those annoying paddle that you have to push to upshift and pull to downshift. Yayyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!

They also say in the article, that chevy said, with some tweaking, they could have the 0-60 time around 5.9.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:27 PM   #5
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Just, please, keep in mind this was a preproduction car, with probably a million miles on it. I'm sure there won't be squeaky suspension, LOL.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:31 PM   #6
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push \ pull paddles...

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Originally Posted by AirGoya View Post
.... they're not those annoying paddle that you have to push to upshift and pull to downshift. Yayyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!
Actually, I think they may be the “push to upshift and pull to downshift” paddles – as in my Corvette A6 6L80.

Looking closely ( enlarging ) pic #8, in the very bottom left corner there is what looks to me very much like the “+” paddle in my Corvette.

http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/photogallery/

Interior picture #9 here shows the ‘Vette version . . .

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Old 08-25-2008, 12:37 PM   #7
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no there is another thread about the shifters somewhere, they are on the backside of the steering wheel.

This is what we think will be like the camaro shifters. This is not a camaro steering wheel.

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Old 08-25-2008, 01:11 PM   #8
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Is that wheel off a chevy pink? or something totally different?
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:24 PM   #9
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paddles??

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Originally Posted by pinkcamaro10 View Post
no there is another thread about the shifters somewhere, they are on the backside of the steering wheel.

This is what we think will be like the camaro shifters. This is not a camaro steering wheel.
Interesting - then what am I seeing in the bottom left of that pic, I wonder???
And why would those in the pic you posted be called ‘paddles’?
They look more like rocker switches, to me . . .
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Confused....
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 122 more than a Stang View Post
Is that wheel off a chevy pink? or something totally different?
im not sure, it was from this thread from a while back



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5771

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Interesting - then what am I seeing in the bottom left of that pic, I wonder???
And why would those in the pic you posted be called ‘paddles’?
They look more like rocker switches, to me . . .
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Confused....
like i said, that is not a camaro steering wheel, we just guess it will be similar to that.

and i think it is actually called tapshift, or something like that.
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rayainsw View Post
Interesting - then what am I seeing in the bottom left of that pic, I wonder???
And why would those in the pic you posted be called ‘paddles’?
They look more like rocker switches, to me . . .
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Confused....
I see what you're talking about in the other pic. It does look like the Corvette style.

I'm fine with either one. Though I think I'd prefer the one's Pink showed us.
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by AirGoya View Post
It says in the article that the manual car had paddle shifters on the steering wheel so they would only have to use the one wheel. (not on production ofcourse) Anyway, i looked at the pictures of the manual car that they have, and i assume since i cant see the paddles, it means that they're not those annoying paddle that you have to push to upshift and pull to downshift. Yayyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!
Yea probably just they had the prototype wheel and just bolted it on. Now on the automatic they are useful. I had a 2000 Celica GTS with the paddles and you just clicked the tranny into M manual mode and use the paddles instead.


The rear suspension noise. Probably from the coil overs, which are superior handling but might need just to be broken in. Or some more damping material in problem spots.
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Old 08-25-2008, 08:32 PM   #13
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I am extremely concerned with how big they said it felt to drive. I much prefer a small car with nimbleness, and the Camaro was already pushing my size envelope as it was. If it feels big and bulky, I might have to look elsewhere. Along with price and interior quality, this is a deal-breaker area.
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:50 PM   #14
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I am extremely concerned with how big they said it felt to drive. I much prefer a small car with nimbleness, and the Camaro was already pushing my size envelope as it was. If it feels big and bulky, I might have to look elsewhere. Along with price and interior quality, this is a deal-breaker area.
Yet the other article said the exact opposite: That it didn't feel as big and hefty as it was. And even in the edmunds article, they mentioned right after the part about it being big that "...once we got to the three roads in the area that actually turn, the Camaro acquitted itself nicely, feeling much more nimble..."
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:54 PM   #15
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I would not worry about it. It's not any bigger than the other gen's and they are cake to drive in terms of road room and parking. Only a test drive will tell if you like it.
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Old 08-25-2008, 10:30 PM   #16
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Thumbs up

anybody else besides me totally digging the IROC style alloys on that prototoype? I know I am .


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Old 08-25-2008, 10:32 PM   #17
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Yet the other article said the exact opposite: That it didn't feel as big and hefty as it was. And even in the edmunds article, they mentioned right after the part about it being big that "...once we got to the three roads in the area that actually turn, the Camaro acquitted itself nicely, feeling much more nimble..."
Cool. I didn't see that in the other article. What really worries me is the obscene weight. 3900 lbs is just too much, and hearing things like low visibility makes it seem bigger does not ease that concern at all. To give you an idea of my size preferences, Camaro is at the large end, and the MX-5 is at the small end (and the MX-5 is in a very close second too! What can I say, I'm a man of extremes) with the middle being the Mazdaspeed3, WRX, Lancer Ralliart, etc. The rumored Pontiac badged alpha car would be on there, but since Pontiac looks like it won't be anything more than rebadged Chevy Cobalts, Cruzes, and Aveos, I don't think I'll be buying a car from that brand anytime soon. I love the Camaro, but its not set in stone for me and it has very tough competition.
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Old 08-26-2008, 01:17 AM   #18
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anybody else besides me totally digging the IROC style alloys on that prototoype? I know I am .


I had some Z28 rims on my 78 Camaro lol.

Got them from a pawn shop don't remember what year they came off I think 84.
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Old 08-26-2008, 01:56 AM   #19
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I am surprised at all the people bitching about the weight. At 3700 to 3900 it is only a little heavier than a stanky Stang and lighter than Challenger with equivelent power. Also Zo6 Vette comes in around 3350 and larger price tag.

My old '68 was around 3700 and rated 375hp although they had around 425hp. That makes the '68 and 2010 pretty damn close and the new car has a lot more technology into it. It looks better than anything in it's class by far. Let's remember to compare apples to apples. If you want a Jap car just shut up and by a damn ricer.

No one knows what they are saying when they say GM copied Ford and Dodge. Didn't VW do a retro 5 years befor the '05 Stiny Stang?
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:00 AM   #20
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I would think we’ll see first drives of production cars around maybe November with full tests say in January or February. It’s getting close fellas.
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:33 AM   #21
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MT pic

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Originally Posted by pinkcamaro10 View Post
im not sure, it was from this thread from a while back



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5771



like i said, that is not a camaro steering wheel, we just guess it will be similar to that.

and i think it is actually called tapshift, or something like that.
A picture in the Motor Trend review ( preview ) seems to show paddles – poking just above the steering wheel spokes as well:

http://image.motortrend.com/f/108175...v6+cockpit.jpg

In this picture, it looks like a similar arrangement to the Corvette’s – to me . . .
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Old 08-26-2008, 09:35 AM   #22
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I am surprised at all the people bitching about the weight. At 3700 to 3900 it is only a little heavier than a stanky Stang and lighter than Challenger with equivelent power. Also Zo6 Vette comes in around 3350 and larger price tag.

My old '68 was around 3700 and rated 375hp although they had around 425hp. That makes the '68 and 2010 pretty damn close and the new car has a lot more technology into it. It looks better than anything in it's class by far. Let's remember to compare apples to apples. If you want a Jap car just shut up and by a damn ricer.

No one knows what they are saying when they say GM copied Ford and Dodge. Didn't VW do a retro 5 years befor the '05 Stiny Stang?
Well, when some people come from 4th. Gens. that were about 3500 lbs., 3900 is a pretty big jump. Don't get me wrong, IMHO, if the weight is in the right places, for the right reasons, I'm fine with that as long as there's power there to make up the difference. From everything we're learning, the power is there, and that weight is in the right places, for the right reasons. There's no use in complaining anymore about it because it's already done. I'm ready for people to just accept what is there, and start looking at the car as a whole, and make a judgement after a test drive. You can't please everyone though.
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Old 08-26-2008, 11:53 AM   #23
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Why do they talk so much about weight and so little about weight distribution?
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Old 08-26-2008, 10:11 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by CWIweldace View Post
I am surprised at all the people bitching about the weight. At 3700 to 3900 it is only a little heavier than a stanky Stang and lighter than Challenger with equivelent power. Also Zo6 Vette comes in around 3350 and larger price tag.

My old '68 was around 3700 and rated 375hp although they had around 425hp. That makes the '68 and 2010 pretty damn close and the new car has a lot more technology into it. It looks better than anything in it's class by far. Let's remember to compare apples to apples. If you want a Jap car just shut up and by a damn ricer.

No one knows what they are saying when they say GM copied Ford and Dodge. Didn't VW do a retro 5 years befor the '05 Stiny Stang?
Don't get so uppity because I'm considering foreign made performance cars. The Camaro is one of the first thoroughly modern, no excuses affordable performance cars to come from an American manufacturer in years. Generally, if you wanted something decently quick and able to handle the twisties, you had to go foreign. The pure connection between driver, road, and car and amazing handling of the MX-5 are still unmatched in its price range. So you have to respect the Japanese for their performance cars. Not all of them are rice rockets.

The fact is the weight is a big disappointment. Notice that the difference in weight between the Mustang and Corvette is significantly smaller than the difference in weight between the Mustang and Camaro, even though the Corvette has 2 fewer seats and is made of plastic. We blasted the Challenger (rightfully so) for being fat, and the Camaro is nearly the same weight. Weight is the enemy of performance. It makes it harder to stop, go, and turn.

And I think it is ridiculous to tell someone to shut up and buy a foreign car instead of criticizing the Camaro. If we all just shut up and let a flaw this bad slide, then everyone would end up buying a Japanese car. Wouldn't want that would we? GM promised us they put the car on a diet, but it seems to have regained the weight as quickly as most dieters seem to. Pity.

In the end, the numbers themselves don't matter as much to me as what they represent. A great 0-60 is important, but only because of how nice that acceleration will feel and how well it will explode out of corners. Likewise, the actually poundage doesn't directly matter, but if it feels as heavy as it really is, that's a problem. All reviews of the G8 that I've read say that it seems to shrink around you and really doesn't feel like a full-size sedan. Great. If the Camaro can do that, then this won't be a problem. Some articles says it does feel smaller. Edmunds says that while it still handles well, it ultimately feels big and bulky. We'll see who's right and that will partially decide whether I get it or not.
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Old 08-28-2008, 05:38 PM   #25
str8himalaya
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Drives: 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 117
Where does everybody expect them to cut weight with all the safety standards now days? It has IRS, that adds weight too. All these people are so upset about the weight. That weight saved my life a couple years back. If i was in a little honda or something of the sort, i would have been toast, instead i was in a midsize (intrepid) and i thank god everyday that i was. Instead of whinning about the weight, how about all of us try and figure out where to cut it out? Not going to happen, because most everything someone suggests has already been discussed and researched. They made it for a reason like it is, lets just wait to see and then make a judgement.
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