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Old 02-09-2007, 09:59 PM   #26
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Yeh, and most of everything anyone buys anywhere in the world the profit will most surely find itself in communist China.
Don't forget India...
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Old 02-09-2007, 11:12 PM   #27
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If you want my advice, choose the Cobalt, or any GM product.

You may see one of these in front of your house if you don't!

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Old 02-09-2007, 11:34 PM   #28
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Alright, you guys are givin me a guilt trip about buyin non AMERICAN. I still dont know what i'm gonna get but I will share with pictures when I get it. I'm goin car shoppin next weekend. I have done alot or reaserch online which is a first for me, I usually am an impulse buyer. I HATE walkin onto a dealership lot though, you get swarmed by salesmen that ****in follow yur ass around and im just like IF I NEED YUR HELP ILL ASK LEAVE ME THE **** ALONE. But a little more polite than that.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:02 AM   #29
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Yeh, and most of everything anyone buys anywhere in the world the profit will most surely find itself in communist China.
ture true but youve got to keep as much of the money spent going to americans i always try to buy all american products wich is kind of an oxymoron but every cent helps.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:34 AM   #30
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If you want my advice, choose the Cobalt, or any GM product.

You may see one of these in front of your house if you don't!

So, you're sayin that if I don't buy a GM vehicle and I pick up a foreign car, I still get a GM Suburban?!? SWEEEEEEET!!!! Two cars for the price of one!!!
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:32 AM   #31
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So, you're sayin that if I don't buy a GM vehicle and I pick up a foreign car, I still get a GM Suburban?!? SWEEEEEEET!!!! Two cars for the price of one!!!
lol... I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the "Dreaded Black Suburban"... and I'm pretty sure that you dont want to know what's inside the "Dreaded Black Suburban" if it shows up at your house :P


hey, Marosolid... why would you consider the G5 and not the Cobalt in anything but SS trim? you know they're the same car, right? just dont like the regular Cobalt's looks?

seriously, though, I'm trying to convince my Dad that he can get alot more car for less money by buying a Chevy Cobalt instead of a Toyota Corolla... and, as said before, its buying American... and I define "buying American" as buying a car built in North America that is made by a Company that is based in the United States.
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Old 02-10-2007, 09:19 AM   #32
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seriously, though, I'm trying to convince my Dad that he can get alot more car for less money by buying a Chevy Cobalt instead of a Toyota Corolla... and, as said before, its buying American... and I define "buying American" as buying a car built in North America that is made by a Company that is based in the United States.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:38 AM   #33
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lol... I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the "Dreaded Black Suburban"... and I'm pretty sure that you dont want to know what's inside the "Dreaded Black Suburban" if it shows up at your house :P

You mean we don't get a free GM Suburban when we buy foreign???
I'm kidding, I'm kidding. I know...I had to give Ed a hard time about that.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:45 AM   #34
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Alright, as to be expected on a site of this kind I am obviously fighting a losing battle. IMO you can buy a car that is produced by an American company and fill the wallets of the executives with the profits that are driven in by said purchase while at the same time you may or may not be supporting the people who really need the money in the first place - the blue collar factory worker.

OR, you can purchase an import and instead fatten the wallets of the executives in another country while at the same time you may or may not be supporting the blue collar worker again.

Personally, I am more concerned about my money supporting the people in America that need it most, not the executives at any auto company. As long as any particular car is helping MY local economy and helping provide for any member of MY family I am going to at least consider that car. I don't care about the executives that make millions a year. I care about the workers who make $30,000 a year. That is just my opinion and it is obviously biased becasue, as i stated earlier, I have family that works at a Toyota Factory.
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Old 02-10-2007, 11:06 AM   #35
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American products are made all over the world now and our hard earned dollar does not completely stay here. Same w/ buying Toyota. Sure, you might be helping your family that works there, but you are putting even more money in the executives pockets that own the company. Toyota (and other foreign car co's) are given MAJOR tax breaks for building their assembly factories here. GM pays hundreds of millions per year in taxes for their factories. Toyota was given something like a $200 million tax break for building in San Antonio. Now, who's pockets are getting lined more in this situation?? So, buy what you will. Your direct deposit into the hands of the foriegn automaker does nothing to guarantee your family security in the long run. Imagine losing the big 3 to Toyota and Honda....hundreds of thousands of jobs lost....retirement plans canned....no medical benefits to be paid....families suffer. Toyota and Honda say they will open new factories here...if they pay NO taxes and pay minimum dollar for factory workers while putting all of our money back into their economy.

Go ahead and purchase Toyota if you wish. That WILL help your family in the present. Meanwhile, there are thousands of other families that depend on the american dollar to keep their american factory open. Don't buy american and we close our factories. I don't have to tell you the detrimental affects this will have on our economy.

You have a choice...put your money into american made, or foreign made. Putting it into american will guarantee the livelyhood of our county in the long run. Buying into foreign will guarantee your family the present. That is how I see it and THAT IS MY OPINION.
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Old 02-10-2007, 12:52 PM   #36
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I know where you're coming from, Casull, and believe me that I would do the same thing if my money helped out my family directly. However, I have to agree with Tag again, (I swear I'm not doing this on purpose Tag, you just keep beating me to the punch). The American Auto motive companies make up at least 30 percent of our Economy overall, Probably more. Putting money into GM, Ford, and Chrysler is probably the best choice right now considering their financial situation right now.
Here's my view:

1. I understand that parts are going to be made all over the world, No one can stop that and I'd rather have it that way actually, because by making EVERYTHING inide our borders if the US ever runs out of resources, we'd be so isolated it wouldn't be funny how screwed the country would be. As long as the Majority of the car originated, is designed and built, in North America(north or Mexico, but I won't go there), I'm good!

2.Wal-Mart's buisness practices are a perfect example of why I hate Asian competition. Their overall quality of life isn't too great so they will make crap for less than US made crap. I say Wal Mart because, as far as I've heard, they won't sell anything for less than the price that they set(which is extremely low). So their buisness practices efectively exclude US crap cause it's "too expensive for them". Sorry but I had to mention this issue.

I'll be quite honest. God's Truth- when I see the label: "MADE IN USA" my face lights up like a kid's on christmas. I get so proud.

And to answer the Original question on this thread, Depending on the size of car you need, Marosolid, I'd say go for a Cobalt or G5(same thing really), or the new Malibu.
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Old 02-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #37
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American products are made all over the world now and our hard earned dollar does not completely stay here. Same w/ buying Toyota. Sure, you might be helping your family that works there, but you are putting even more money in the executives pockets that own the company. Toyota (and other foreign car co's) are given MAJOR tax breaks for building their assembly factories here. GM pays hundreds of millions per year in taxes for their factories. Toyota was given something like a $200 million tax break for building in San Antonio. Now, who's pockets are getting lined more in this situation?? So, buy what you will. Your direct deposit into the hands of the foriegn automaker does nothing to guarantee your family security in the long run. Imagine losing the big 3 to Toyota and Honda....hundreds of thousands of jobs lost....retirement plans canned....no medical benefits to be paid....families suffer. Toyota and Honda say they will open new factories here...if they pay NO taxes and pay minimum dollar for factory workers while putting all of our money back into their economy.

Go ahead and purchase Toyota if you wish. That WILL help your family in the present. Meanwhile, there are thousands of other families that depend on the american dollar to keep their american factory open. Don't buy american and we close our factories. I don't have to tell you the detrimental affects this will have on our economy.

You have a choice...put your money into american made, or foreign made. Putting it into american will guarantee the livelyhood of our county in the long run. Buying into foreign will guarantee your family the present. That is how I see it and THAT IS MY OPINION.


Believe me, I understand your position, and I am in absolutely NO WAY advocating not buying American made products/autos.

However, your argument that by purchasing foreign it only helps in the short-run is a little confusing to me. If Toyota contnues to see the sales and profits that they have enjoyed over the course of the last decade, then I am sure they will continue to build vehicles in America and doing so will continue to employ thousands of American workers.

I can see how those with out a personal stake in this see an easy decision to me made. Buy American and preserve hundreds of thousands of jobs... however you have to also consider the thousands upon thousands of workers that foreign automakers also employ in America. I mean we are litterally robbing Paul to save Peter either way you look at it.

As for the Tax benefits these foreign automakers were given, I personally do not know the details of the argeements to be able to speak intelligently about them; however, the way I see it is that the US government decided that if that is what they had to do to lure thousands of new jobs tot he US, then that is what they did instead of the alternative.

We can argue this until we are all blue in the face and will get absolutely nowhere becasue all of our convictions are so strong, and that is a good thing, so I will leave it at that.

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Old 02-10-2007, 02:21 PM   #38
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I'm alright with that... I think...:o
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Old 02-10-2007, 04:50 PM   #39
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While all of the above are educated arguments, somewhere in the back of my head the issue goes deeper than that. BUT, that's an issue for a whole another day. In the end, one should always do whatever makes you the happiest and more importantly the decision that makes the most financial sense.
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Old 02-10-2007, 05:49 PM   #40
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What i believe tag is trying to say is that buying foreign autos will only help in the short run because if the government allows all of the foreign companies to come over here and build plants to produce autos here with huge bonuses and tax breaks that cause one or all of the big three to go bankrupt this will severely affect our economy. Draogneye states this number to be around 30% of the economy there is no way the US can continue if the foreign car companies take over. Yes the foreign companies are pay the factory workers to work there. However the parent company is paying cents on the dollar for taxes. Another thing is the executives of American automakers that make the big bucks on the money paid to buy the autos of said company they have to pay their share of taxes which fall in a much much higher tax bracket. So the foreign companies get huge breaks when building their factories here, then they get huge tax breaks years after the plant is opened and the majority of the money that is made by the company is sent overseasto the CEO's is not being taxed. Foreign companies will be the end of this country because of the economy being stole by these companies. I will always buy American originated cars until the day I die or until they are not available then i will simply kill myself because this country will be in the crapper shortly after such an event happens. BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:34 PM   #41
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Dodge neon. Very cheap, very good on gas, and they are pretty quick.
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Old 02-10-2007, 06:37 PM   #42
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And on the foreign deal, I understand the idea of it hurts america and benefits other countries, and I prefer american vehichles myself. The thing is, if you check the stickers on alot of American cars and trucks you will find there is still a very large part of the production that is done outside of the US, keep that in mind.
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Old 02-10-2007, 09:41 PM   #43
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Dodge neon. Very cheap, very good on gas, and they are pretty quick.
You mean the SRT-4!!! LoL, guy in my office w/ an '06 S-type 4.2 tried to take on and got smoked. Great car for sure though, glad you mentioned it as I forgot it.

IROC'em also makes a good point about the number of parts produced in foreign countries by foreign suppliers. Let's not forget that we live in a globalized economy where everyone from everywhere has their foot in something. GM is actually a global company (BIG time), something to remember as well.
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Old 02-10-2007, 10:30 PM   #44
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What i believe tag is trying to say is that buying foreign autos will only help in the short run because if the government allows all of the foreign companies to come over here and build plants to produce autos here with huge bonuses and tax breaks that cause one or all of the big three to go bankrupt this will severely affect our economy. Draogneye states this number to be around 30% of the economy there is no way the US can continue if the foreign car companies take over. Yes the foreign companies are pay the factory workers to work there. However the parent company is paying cents on the dollar for taxes. Another thing is the executives of American automakers that make the big bucks on the money paid to buy the autos of said company they have to pay their share of taxes which fall in a much much higher tax bracket. So the foreign companies get huge breaks when building their factories here, then they get huge tax breaks years after the plant is opened and the majority of the money that is made by the company is sent overseasto the CEO's is not being taxed. Foreign companies will be the end of this country because of the economy being stole by these companies. I will always buy American originated cars until the day I die or until they are not available then i will simply kill myself because this country will be in the crapper shortly after such an event happens. BUY AMERICAN!!!!!!!!!

You mean like the new '09 Camaro will be made in Canada? Just food for thought.
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Old 02-11-2007, 12:22 AM   #45
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the toyota yaris is something like 8000 and gets geed gas mileage from wat i hear
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Old 02-11-2007, 12:52 AM   #46
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Here is an interesting article, posted by Scott Settlemire, from GM on the Chirpthird.com website. Please take time to read this. I think it pertains to this discussion quite nicely.



#1 12-20-2006, 01:26 PM
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Interesting read on American cars.........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By Roger Simmermaker (Commentary) PITTSBURGH POST GAZETTE......
Dec. 19, 2006

Ford and General Motors have taken turns besting the Toyota Camry in quality surveys for the past two years, but if you talk to many Americans – especially the ones who would never consider supporting home-based auto companies – you'd never know it.

Last year, the Chevrolet Impala beat the Camry in initial quality, according to J.D. Power & Associates. And Consumer Reports just announced that both the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan scored higher than both the Camry and the Honda Accord this year.

Even as GM and Ford have accumulated award after award on vehicle quality, you'd almost never know about such quality gains made by American companies.

There's also the mythical perception that foreign automakers produce the most fuel efficient cars and that Detroit only makes gas-guzzlers when the truth is that all automakers – including Toyota, Honda and Hyundai-Kia alike – have allowed fuel economy to slide in the past 20 years since they all now sell bigger trucks and more SUVs.

Perhaps the biggest perception problem is that American automobile companies GM and Ford – Chrysler is now German-owned – squander all their money on plants overseas and foreign automakers build their factories in the United States. Foreign car lovers will surely point to Kia's plans to build its first-ever U.S. plant in Georgia, but they probably won't mention that they received $400 million in tax giveaways to do it, which translates into $160,000 per job.

Among the many benefits for the foreign-owned company, your tax dollars are going to be used for road improvements surrounding the complex, complete with flower beds and other beautification features. Hey, as long as we're going to allow states to bid for private jobs with our public tax dollars, we might as well make it look good, right?

And the foreign car lovers will probably also not tell you (or maybe they just don't know or don't want you to know) that GM and Ford pour more money into existing American facilities than foreign automakers spend on new plants, usually with little or no tax breaks. GM has already spent more than $500 million upgrading two transmission plants this year, and has spent nearly a billion dollars over the last decade, for example, for facility upgrades in Texas.

And what do GM and Ford get for making their existing plants more efficient? It isn't tax breaks. Instead, they get accusations of not being "competitive" enough! Maybe here I should also mention that the average domestic parts content for Kia is 3 percent, while the average domestic parts content of Ford and GM is 78 percent and 74 percent, respectively. This means that buying a U.S.-assembled (or even foreign-assembled, for that matter) GM or Ford supports more American jobs than a U.S.-assembled car or truck with a foreign nameplate.

Fortunately for our benefit, the United States remains the overall global leader in research and development, and a big reason for that is that American automakers. According to the Level Field Institute, U.S. car companies invest $16 billion in research and development annually, outpacing any other industry one could name.

Admittedly, the Level Field Institute counts German-owned DaimlerChrysler as an American automaker, so Ford and GM's combined R&D contribution to America is closer to around $12 billion. But who's counting, right? Certainly not the American auto-bashing media.

Japanese companies do employ 3,600 American workers in R&D, but that still leaves the foreign competition behind in the dust staring at American rear bumpers – 3,600 sounds like a big number until you realize that 65,000 Americans work in R&D facilities in the state of Michigan alone. In fact, two of the top four R&D spending companies in America as reported by the Wall Street Journal are – you guessed it – Ford and GM. The other two are also American companies: Pfizer and Microsoft.

Ford has recently made headlines as the American automaker with the most challenges to its future, but these challenges certainly are not because they "aren't making cars people want to buy." Toyota did outsell Ford in July, but since then, Ford has reclaimed the No. 2 spot.

GM has the highest market share, increasing over 2 percentage points from a year ago, so it apparently can't be accused of not making cars people want to buy either. Ford sales also are up in Europe, and Ford doubled its sales in China, where GM has the highest market share of any automaker.

GM also reported a 3.9 percent rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, it couldn't match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM's sales rose 17 percent in October from the year-ago month and Ford sales rose 8 percent the same period.

And for all the talk about the lack of fuel efficiency of American automakers, it seems three-fourths of all automakers failed to meet Europe's improved fuel-efficiency standards intended to cut carbon-dioxide emissions. Japanese and German automakers topped the list of the study's worst performers, but according to an environmental group's study, GM's Opel division and Ford both "come out well."

In closing, I'll leave some encouraging numbers for those of us who actually like to root for and support the home team. The J.D. Power 2006 Vehicle Dependability Survey reports that Mercury, Buick and Cadillac (in that order) grabbed the No. 2, 3 and 4 spots to beat Toyota, Honda, Nissan, BMW and everyone else (except Lexus) in having the least number of problems per 100 vehicles.

Perhaps someday the American media will give GM and Ford the credit they deserve. And once they do, perception among the majority of the American public will rightfully change. GM and Ford aren't only doing what they should to make gains in the American market to deserve American consumer loyalty; they're also doing what they should to make gains in the markets of China, Europe and across most of the rest of the globe.
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Old 02-11-2007, 02:46 AM   #47
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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=3997#post3997

Doug, Scott had posted that up here too back on the 20th of Dec. I wish I would have thought about it at the time but it slipped my mind. Thank you for remembering and for posting that excellent information. That says it all.

Fellas, don't get me wrong. I don't take offense to anyones post here nor meant to offend anyone as well. It's just that I feel strongly that we need to support our county as best as we can. I'm not trying to beat anyone over the head about it (although I feel like I might just be doing that). If you want to buy a Toyota or VW, go ahead and knock yourself out! Cool by me! But, if I can sway someone into buying american made, I did good for us.

Yep, I know that I will be buying a Canadian made Camaro...or at least that it will be assembled there. From what I understand, parts for the 5th Gen will be made in several countries. I imagine a great number of those parts will be made in the USA. This means there are hundreds of companies who depend on building or crafting parts for an american car. If you don't buy it, then they don't make it. Then, the factory that builds the door handles, fabricates dash parts, makes the brake pads, makes the seats, etc doesn't get business and closes down. I'm not just talking about auto factories, but many more factories and suppliers as well. Money that is put in the hands of US automakers tends to stay in american hands.

You want to support your family because they work in a Toyota plant. Cool. But what if truck owners bought Ford F-150's and Silverados instead of Tundras? Ford wouldn't have closed that factory and your neighbor wouldn't have just lost his job, pension, and health benefits. How many american jobs did Ford just cut to keep it afloat? Wasn't it something like 10 thousand jobs? Those were american jobs which could have been saved if someone bought american made. I hear Ford lost something like 2.7 Billion. That's a lot of families that could have been supported. I'm looking long term here. If we stop buying american, money goes to foriegn companies which then goes back to their countries. It doesn't go to the american family to spend on more american products. Our economy as a whole begins to slip....
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:35 AM   #48
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Awesome ride, but I'll take my Camaro thank you very much!
I like to poke it in peoples faces that one of the greatest pony cars of all time is not going to put the biggest hole in my wallet of all time,
Both at the Dealer and at the pump
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Old 02-11-2007, 07:38 PM   #49
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That was a great post by Scott. Getting away from the previous argument, I think there is a lot that goes into the general public's perception of American Autos. Unfortunately, the American auto makers are having to overcome this 'low quality' stigma that they developed through the early and mid 80's becasue of their low quality autos compared to what was then the new Asian market.

Unfortunately, actually increasing the quality of vehicles has not been enough to alter people's perceived quality. I think one of the biggest problems was American auto manufacturer's reluctance to back their products with a substantial warranty for such a long time. However, with Diamler-Chrystler and now GM stepping out on a limb and offering elongated warranties, I think a lot will be done to change the misperception, but as the saying goes... American Autos made their bed, and now they have to sleep in it.

This is also why I think the Camaro is going to be so iconic for GM. I think it is going to really represent a new era in America automobiles and show consumers GMs renewed interest in developing stylish, attractive and quality automobiles.

I think people confuse simple and plain with high quality these days. When you look inside the majority of foreign automobiles they all have very simple and plain features. I really believe that people began associating the Asian quality improvement movement of the 80's with these qualities in their autos, and now today people still associate it that way. Someone said it earlier that you can get much more car for your buck with a GM economy vehicle than you can with most imports. The next few years will certainly be interesting ones.
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Old 02-11-2007, 11:48 PM   #50
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I totally agree with you, Casull, THE problem is the PERCEPTION of quality, versus the reality of quality. Toyota has recently had many more quality recalls than GM. Sadly, the publics perceptions are going to take a while to change.
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