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Old 01-29-2010, 11:19 PM   #1
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Lightbulb The COPO of Today

Years ago, when you placed your Camaro order, you could choose from a variety of engines. It wasn't just an SS. It was the SS 350 or the SS 427 or whatever was available at the time. It was what you made it to be through the central office. It even had matching numbers and that GM warranty because GM made everything and could do the work.

There are a lot more complications today, and that is why we don't have this today. This is line we're all fed, and GM has enough on its plate not to make this a priority. Let's take a look at GM production.

There are plants committed to making engines. They build the engine, stamp a number on it, and send it to a car. There are plants committed to making cars. They build the car, paint it, stuff an engine in it, stamp a number on it, and send them to the dealership. Notice how the engine stamp has to match the car stamp for the ones that aren't crate engines.

In this process, there are issues of timing, supply, and making sure there are enough products to have extras for repairs and special orders.

Now, let's say I'm crazy for a moment. Let's say I want the LSX in my Camaro. To do it today, I have to get my L99 and my LSX, adding roughly $9k to my order. At this point, I'm at the mercy of whoever will buy my slightly used L99. Plus, my car insurance plan assumes I have the L99 in my Camaro, and the value of my car does not consider the extra value of my new engine. The numbers won't match, meaning that resale value is reduced. If someone ever totals my car, I'm taking a huge loss.

With today's technology, it is possible to place special orders. All you've really got to do is stamp a crate engine with the same VIN as the car and ship both to the dealer. Include the proper ECM and tune with the engine, and any dealer is prepared to do the install.

Imagine the possibilities. Dealers could make special edition, high-profit 427 Camaros on demand. The Yenko and Berger era could return with dealers adding fuel to the aftermarket fire.

Let's discuss our support for more options and more possibilities. I'm sure you're all with me.
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:23 PM   #2
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I agree Blur, exactly what would really have to change to do this, you do not have to produce barely any new parts if any at all.
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:24 PM   #3
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I have called GM many times over things like this... they don't wanna talk. GM hates us... they just want our money, lol.
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:27 PM   #4
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I have called GM many times over things like this... they don't wanna talk. GM hates us... they just want our money, lol.
Another problem is demand on your case.

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Old 01-29-2010, 11:36 PM   #5
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Well here a copy of my last communication with GM...

11-23-09
"Hello,
I am wondering if the 4.5L Duramax is still in the works for the 1/2 ton pickups. I am looking to buy a new truck in the next year or two depending on the options available. What are the chances the 6.2L will be available in a single cab Silverado 1500 or the 5.3L/6.0L in the single cab Colorado?

I am a GM loyal consumer. I currently own a 2006 LT Trailblazer SS and a 2006 Silverado. Just a comment, many of us GM fanatics still appreciate performance where it is least expected. We would like to see more power even if it may sacrifice a bit of fuel economy. Some, like myself, couldn't care less about warranty. We know the vehicle is reliable when we purchase it, but also know how to protect it even after adding a few more horsepower.

I myself would like to see more gearing options and engine combinations for the trucks. That alone can be a major selling point on a new truck. Tell me, how can any performance minded individual use a 3.23/3.42 gear? Even a 3.73 is not enough when you have a heavy 20" wheel package.

I feel like in this time, when not many people are buying new vehicles, you should want to offer something that appeals to everyone. Gears and a more powerful engine are an easy addition when the parts are readily available and cost would be the same. If not, this cost could be put on the consumer if they choose to order a vehicle with that extra option.

All I am asking is that the option be available for special order vehicles. If a single cab Silverado with the 6.2L and 4.10/4.56 gears without me having to do the work myself. Well, just say you already have one sold.

Thanks,
Wade Rhodes"

11/24/09 Their response was...
"Dear Mr. Rhodes,

Thank you for contacting Chevrolet and your interest in the 2010 Silverado 1500 and Colorado. We appreciate your loyalty and the time you have taken to write us. We spoke by phone and I am sending this reply email as you requested.

The 4.5L Duramax for the 2010 Silverado 1500 is still under review, and there have not been any additional official announcements. While we do not have details of the new Duramax and options/models at this time, the all-new Duramax diesel begins production in May for the 2010 Silverado/GMC Sierra. It appears this new Duramax applies to the larger Duramax diesels. Please stay in contact with your Chevrolet dealer for the most up to date product availability information. If you are not currently working with a Chevrolet dealership in your area and you would like to locate one, you may visit http://www.findchevydealer.com.

Closer to start of production, details of the new Duramax may be available at GM Powertrain. To reach this website, go to http://www.gm.com and click on the down arrow at the right top of the screen at All GM Sites and then click on GM Powertrain. We apologize for any inconvenience.

There has been an announcement that this is the last lifecycle of the current Colorado and Canyon. Production is expected to end for these products no later than mid 2012 or sooner, depending on market demand.

We would like to thank you for your feedback regarding increasing performance via more power, gearing options, and engine combinations for the Silverado 1500 and Colorado. Many of our decisions regarding our vehicles are dependent on the market place. Customers provide feedback to us regarding our current vehicles, future vehicles, and the different components on them. From the information provided, we, in turn, make decisions and changes towards our product. We have documented your suggestions and comments.

To facilitate your suggestions, you also may consider submitting your idea via our website. General Motors welcomes your innovative ideas for product and process improvements. For information regarding submission procedures, please visit http://www.gm.com/explore/technology...ions/index.jsp

We recommend that you periodically contact your dealer or us for updates. You may also get updates on http://www.chevrolet.com as new information becomes available. Once the 2010 Silverado with the new Duramax is available, contact your local dealer to take a test drive.

At Chevrolet, we strive to provide outstanding customer service. If we can be of any further assistance, please email us or call 1-800-950-2438 between the hours of 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. E.S.T., Monday thru Friday, 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. E.S.T., Saturday. Thank you for contacting Chevrolet!

Sincerely,

The Chevrolet Marketing Team
http://www.chevrolet.com/"

Then a day or so after receiving that email, I received a phone call from GM thanking me for the support. I asked a few quick questions about the Camaro and 54 days later, on 1-17-09, I purchased my 2010 Camaro SS 6M. Just felt like I should throw this information out there for others to read. I know this was truck related, but hey... I work too! I just want something that may be able to get me back and forth a bit faster than your average truck can muster.

Last edited by WongBob; 01-30-2010 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:49 PM   #6
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My guess is the new Duramax they speak of being built in may is for the 2011 HD trucks. I'm glad they said the 4.5 D-Max is still under consideration. I want a D-Max 1500 Sierra right now!!
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Old 01-29-2010, 11:55 PM   #7
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Im with you bro.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:02 AM   #8
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Start a petition.....

-Ivan
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:03 AM   #9
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Don't forget that they have to certify that engine for emissions in the Camaro if it is available from the factory. That is part of what makes it expensive if only a small percentage of people order their car this way.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:15 AM   #10
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I would buy a diesel Tahoe or Burb right now if they offered it.
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Old 01-30-2010, 05:19 AM   #11
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That could become a reality becuase the 4.5 duramax is to be produced for the half-ton trucks which just so happens to be the same platform as the Tahoe, Suburban, and Avalanche.
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Old 01-30-2010, 07:23 AM   #12
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well if the colorado is leaving, will the S10 return?
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:38 AM   #13
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Blur: Your plan will never work. It's all because of the EPA.

Each model year vehicle cannot be sold unless its engine and drivetrain is EPA certified - FOR THAT YEAR. If you choose to install a non-certified engine, you're on your own and it will never fly by either the factory or the dealer.

Back in 1999, I purchased 22 crate motors from a GM clearing house. They were production supercharged 3800 GM engines, 240 HP, originally earmarked for the Grand Prix GTP. The reason I was able to purchase them was because the model year changed, and they had 140 of them earmarked as surplus (they already had a "lifetime" supply for the parts bins). They could not use them for the 2000 model year production because they were the wrong certification year...so I bought them REAL cheap. They had the factory oil in them and they were never even run. They were complete with supercharger and injectors.

I also purchased 45 Eaton long-snout superchargers from the same source, brand new GM, in these special clam-shell crates, 6 per crate...again, not certified for the current production and only a year old. Again, REAL inexpensive. And I'd challenge anyone to tell the difference between these "new old stock" and the current production parts.

Amazing the expense GM goes thru to appease the government.
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Old 01-30-2010, 08:48 AM   #14
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SLP is the COPO of today -- huge horsepower, full warranty, handled through dealer as if it came from GM, not cheap but a good deal compared to doing the same modifications yourself

Last edited by Bert; 01-30-2010 at 08:48 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:00 AM   #15
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One word:

EMISSIONS

The LSX is not emissions-compliant anywhere in North America, so the chances of getting one "factory-installed" for licensed, street-driven purposes is ZERO...

Another word:

LIABILITY

Ever wonder why you can go to a GM Dealer, order an LS9 crate engine, but NOT be able to purchase through GM the proper electronics to "speak" to anything but a Corvette? Yup...liability... GM will take the risk, for warranty AND liability, on a ZR1 (I'm sure it's factored into it's price...), but at the moment that's the ONLY chassis the LS9 is "cerified and validated" for, by GM.

NO chassis has that "blessing" for the LSX, and no street version of the LSX is expected...
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
One word:

EMISSIONS

The LSX is not emissions-compliant anywhere in North America, so the chances of getting one "factory-installed" for licensed, street-driven purposes is ZERO...

Another word:

LIABILITY

Ever wonder why you can go to a GM Dealer, order an LS9 crate engine, but NOT be able to purchase through GM the proper electronics to "speak" to anything but a Corvette? Yup...liability... GM will take the risk, for warranty AND liability, on a ZR1 (I'm sure it's factored into it's price...), but at the moment that's the ONLY chassis the LS9 is "cerified and validated" for, by GM.

NO chassis has that "blessing" for the LSX, and no street version of the LSX is expected...
emissions could put a hamper on it but i dont think that way myself i think its a great idea. I like the way you think blur
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:19 AM   #17
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If we are talking about certification and CARB numbers, both the LS7 and LS9 are certified for the Vette. There is no reason that those engines couldn't be available for the Camaro based on what is being said here.
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:22 AM   #18
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Quote:
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There is no reason that those engines couldn't be available for the Camaro based on what is being said here.
Heard about a "Z28", coming to a Chev Store near you, soon? Wonder what IT will be powered by...
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Old 01-30-2010, 10:25 AM   #19
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With all the changes who knows, but mostly has to do with the balls of the dealer. Which also means you can only get warranty work done there as it would be dealer installed. [he can fudge paper work to get GM to cover it]

in the mid 80s GM never sold a 350 T5 3rd gen, but you can find documented ones that were sold by a dealers who were able to get it done.
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Old 01-30-2010, 11:54 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jferrell88 View Post
emissions could put a hamper on it but i dont think that way myself i think its a great idea. I like the way you think blur
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear View Post
If we are talking about certification and CARB numbers, both the LS7 and LS9 are certified for the Vette. There is no reason that those engines couldn't be available for the Camaro based on what is being said here.
ME and Blur had a rather lengthy conversation about this last night.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:06 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GNVenom View Post
Blur: Your plan will never work. It's all because of the EPA.

Each model year vehicle cannot be sold unless its engine and drivetrain is EPA certified - FOR THAT YEAR. If you choose to install a non-certified engine, you're on your own and it will never fly by either the factory or the dealer.

Back in 1999, I purchased 22 crate motors from a GM clearing house. They were production supercharged 3800 GM engines, 240 HP, originally earmarked for the Grand Prix GTP. The reason I was able to purchase them was because the model year changed, and they had 140 of them earmarked as surplus (they already had a "lifetime" supply for the parts bins). They could not use them for the 2000 model year production because they were the wrong certification year...so I bought them REAL cheap. They had the factory oil in them and they were never even run. They were complete with supercharger and injectors.

I also purchased 45 Eaton long-snout superchargers from the same source, brand new GM, in these special clam-shell crates, 6 per crate...again, not certified for the current production and only a year old. Again, REAL inexpensive. And I'd challenge anyone to tell the difference between these "new old stock" and the current production parts.

Amazing the expense GM goes thru to appease the government.
I was waiting for someone to point this out. Having spent my college career studying government, I learned a few interesting things. One thing about government regulations regarding cars is that any car with less than 2,000 in production that year is exempt from certain regulations. Here's how you work the loophole. You call each configuration a different model. If one guy has the LS7 with an automatic transmission and another guy has the LS9 with a manual transmission, you call them two different configurations. That way, you can build 1,998 more of each that year. Notice I mentioned the transmission. That means that GM can make 1,999 of each engine with each transmission. That makes 4 short of 4,000 special cars. Just give each a different name: Camaro LS7-A and Camaro LSA-A. These special configurations may not fall under EPA standards in such low production unless the loophole closes. In the meantime, there's room for a lot of special cars.

There won't be that many special orders for good reason. GM won't be doing all of the work. The dealers will have to install the engines and transmissions as if they were installing crate motors in hollow Camaro shells. Plus, GM could price these products as special editions, requiring a higher MSRP. These costs would make dealers less likely to order special Camaros unless customers specifically ordered them. Plus, this would reduce the special Camaros on the lot, meaning that the number of special Camaros would stay low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bert View Post
SLP is the COPO of today -- huge horsepower, full warranty, handled through dealer as if it came from GM, not cheap but a good deal compared to doing the same modifications yourself
It's close. See the below response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coolman View Post
Slp is more like the Yenko of today than the copo. Slp is not a factory built car for one , and its way to flashy.
SLP is not the same as a COPO. With COPO products, you had lots of customization. Today, we have similar RPO codes and ordering procedures, but the process must go entirely through a dealer with limited options. At the small expense required to restructure and consolidate these RPO codes across all of its cars and trucks, GM could produce additional high-profit items and do less work to produce them. If the dealers have to foot the labor, then GM would save itself the time to fully build as many as 1,999 cars per configuration. It costs less to produce special models because GM wouldn't have to pay factory workers to actually do the factory work of putting together some parts of the car, instead shipping the labor to the dealership who will then mark up the car to compensate for the hours. GM sells it at a premium, the dealer gets a limited edition markup, and the customer gets to order whatever custom car they can afford. Everyone is happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2ndgenz28 View Post
With all the changes who knows, but mostly has to do with the balls of the dealer. Which also means you can only get warranty work done there as it would be dealer installed. [he can fudge paper work to get GM to cover it]

in the mid 80s GM never sold a 350 T5 3rd gen, but you can find documented ones that were sold by a dealers who were able to get it done.
Today, it's all about the dealer. Not enough dealers have the chutzpah that Yenko and Berger had back in the day. Now, those dealerships have less a name than Classic and Newman, both exceptional dealerships by any standard, on this forum. The new Yenko isn't really a Yenko. It's built by Nickey Chicago with licensing from the family. The family really isn't the Yenko we knew. The Yenko we knew was a salesman who loved products so much that he wanted to build them to their potential and smartly sell them as high-profit items. That is exactly what I propose GM do. We know GM loves their cars. We don't know why they leave some of these fantastic crate engines in garages and warehouses. Take them out and throw them into Impalas, Corvettes, and Camaros! Give us the option to order something great and a great expense. GM hasn't given us this opportunity, but if they did, we'd see some great machines out there, adding to the respect and reputation of the GM brand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
One word:

EMISSIONS

The LSX is not emissions-compliant anywhere in North America, so the chances of getting one "factory-installed" for licensed, street-driven purposes is ZERO...

Another word:

LIABILITY

Ever wonder why you can go to a GM Dealer, order an LS9 crate engine, but NOT be able to purchase through GM the proper electronics to "speak" to anything but a Corvette? Yup...liability... GM will take the risk, for warranty AND liability, on a ZR1 (I'm sure it's factored into it's price...), but at the moment that's the ONLY chassis the LS9 is "cerified and validated" for, by GM.

NO chassis has that "blessing" for the LSX, and no street version of the LSX is expected...
An emissions explanation is provided at the beginning of this very post.

All GM has to do is tune the ECM. Most ECMs are similar and can handle similar tuning. There is nothing fundamentally different with the LS7 that makes it impossible to tune on the LS3 ECM. They are both LS-series engines, and plenty of aftermarket companies have shoved the 7.0-L giant into a Camaro. GM can handle it, and so can your dealer.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:25 PM   #22
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The reason, as stated by others, is emissions compliance.

For a vehicle to be sold in this country, it MUST meet emissions standards for the market it is sold into.

Let's think about a few of the cars sold over the years not offered in certain configurations - The 330 hp LT4 Corvettes of 1996 come to mind...

The LT4 Corvette was a manual transmission-only model for 1996 and was standard in the 1996 Grand Sport Corvette and available on the rest. If you ordered an automatic transmission Corvette in 1996, you received the LT1 (300 hp) engine in your car.

Some have claimed over the years, they had a special, one-of-a-kind automatic LT4. GM would lose their tail by letting a non-certified car out of their doors. Not going to happen!

So.... Back to the COPO cars of the past... The 427 (ZL1) Camaros of the past, are legendary today. No doubt about it! However, 40 years ago, the auto manufacturers were not choked and burdened with the regulations of today.

COPO exists today in limited form today - paint colors and certain trim may fall under a Central Office Production Order. Higher hp engines, just don't happen though...

The good news today, is you can get an engineered, high-powered supercar from your local Callaway/Chevrolet dealer, delivering volumes of power in an (50 state) emissions complaint package, and with an unparalleled Powertrain warranty.

http://www.callawaycars.com/las/Call...Literature.htm

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Old 01-30-2010, 12:30 PM   #23
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If we are talking about certification and CARB numbers, both the LS7 and LS9 are certified for the Vette. There is no reason that those engines couldn't be available for the Camaro based on what is being said here.


While true they are certified for use in the Corvette, that does not get them an automatic pass for installation in the Camaro. It's much more complicated than that...
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:32 PM   #24
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But the fact is, I could build a high performance numbers matching car like anyone else, no one except Gm is capable of producing an ls? block that matches the vin number. Like blur stated, there is a way around the EPA if the production is under 2000. Which would make it rare.
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Old 01-30-2010, 12:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Callaway Chris View Post
The reason, as stated by others, is emissions compliance.

For a vehicle to be sold in this country, it MUST meet emissions standards for the market it is sold into.

Let's think about a few of the cars sold over the years not offered in certain configurations - The 330 hp LT4 Corvettes of 1996 come to mind...

The LT4 Corvette was a manual transmission-only model for 1996 and was standard in the 1996 Grand Sport Corvette and available on the rest. If you ordered an automatic transmission Corvette in 1996, you received the LT1 (300 hp) engine in your car.

Some have claimed over the years, they had a special, one-of-a-kind automatic LT4. GM would lose their tail by letting a non-certified car out of their doors. Not going to happen!

So.... Back to the COPO cars of the past... The 427 (ZL1) Camaros of the past, are legendary today. No doubt about it! However, 40 years ago, the auto manufacturers were not choked and burdened with the regulations of today.

COPO exists today in limited form today - paint colors and certain trim may fall under a Central Office Production Order. Higher hp engines, just don't happen though...

The good news today, is you can get an engineered, high-powered supercar from your local Callaway/Chevrolet dealer, delivering volumes of power in an (50 state) emissions complaint package, and with an unparalleled Powertrain warranty.

http://www.callawaycars.com/las/Call...Literature.htm

You guys do make beasts. I at one point interviewed at Superior Chevrolet in Kansas City and had a chance to take a close look at a couple of your Callaway Corvettes. Those are truly beautiful machines. I wish I had a chance to look at a C16, though. They are, however, well out of the price range of the average custom tuner. After all, we have to pay for your expertise, professionalism, and well-engineered product. The suggestion here is that the product isn't on par with the aftermarket but that GM simply makes a few more customizable options available.

Let's forget the engine issue and talk about other options for a moment.

If I want to order a stripper, I will have to order a 1SS and call it a day. Imagine being able to order without OnStar. A GM employee wouldn't have to install that on the car. That's a cost reduction. Imagine being able to order without a sound system at all. Now no one has to install the speakers. Do you see how this makes customization easier? I can go to a fine electronics retailer and pick up these items without them being included in the cost of the car. At the same time as I do this, it is still a street legal machine. It has a VIN. I can insure it as a daily driver. I just don't have to pay for parts that I don't want, and GM can reduce the price by these items in proportion to the profit that they want to gain. For instance, if a feature costs $1,000 to install, but GM only take $700 off my price, GM gets $300 for me to remove an option. It's actually profitable to do this.

Now, let's get back to engines and transmissions.

The first and most obvious solution to getting around regulations is getting Americans to call their elected officials and make them pass a law. Because Americans are oftentimes too busy or, as I would argue, too politically lazy to tell their elected officials how they really feel, this may never happen. Sadly, most people think the only way to be involved in democracy is voting. What they should be doing is calling their elected officials monthly to give them feedback. No one does this, so elected officials, instead of responding to their constituents, operate on their own opinions. We elect them to listen to their boss, the people, but their boss never tells them what to do.

Of the listed regulations that should be changed, I reference the rule that the highest trim is usually tested. It's the heaviest, biggest, and least efficient trim. Of course, the EPA gives this rating to all cars that have similar characteristics when in fact they could do better. This rule sucks. Call your elected officials about it.

The next solution is to look for loopholes. If we call the Camaro a truck, it basically gets a free ride through the EPA, so a future El Camino might be a powerful solution to the performance problem. Another loophole is minimum production numbers. Notice what the EPA does not list in the fuel economy list. Do you see the world's fastest car, the SSC Ultimate Aero TT? I couldn't find it. The production numbers are low enough that the EPA does not have to test it. GM could use the very same trick.
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