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Old 09-04-2008, 12:05 AM   #1
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too many Mustangs!

On the Ford site, I was looking at pricing to compare with the recent rumors that the Camaro will cost $22k, which coincides with Premium Mustang prices.

Anyway, here's the link. These are all ordered from the factory. In other words, these are not special editions that are made by third parties. Isn't this about the worst possible business strategy? There are too many variations. Doesn't that bring up production costs?
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:27 AM   #2
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We don't get floor mats autographed by Carol Shelby? What a gyp! I did see a "Blackjack" edition one day on the road which looked pretty sweet and is pretty rare I guess. They do have some builds that are low production but they charge an arm and a leg.

Another thing is they overprice these cars anyway and then the dealers will discount it and be all WOW, WHAT A GREAT DEAL!!1111eleven
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:35 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
On the Ford site, I was looking at pricing to compare with the recent rumors that the Camaro will cost $22k, which coincides with Premium Mustang prices.

Anyway, here's the link. These are all ordered from the factory. In other words, these are not special editions that are made by third parties. Isn't this about the worst possible business strategy? There are too many variations. Doesn't that bring up production costs?
You would think so, but since their strategy is a Ford in every driveway, they go the other way. Plus, if you noticed, all these "special editions" come with real tiny/shitty upgrades like colors, trim pieces, badges, etc. They still keep production down to a lesser degree because they essentially use the same car with a different name .
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:35 AM   #4
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According to my highly scientfic testing, Chix don't dig it much. Well maybe convertibles.

Yawn.. Unless it's a 65-72 it's boring.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:38 AM   #5
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According to my highly scientfic testing, Chix don't dig it much. Well maybe convertibles.

Yawn.. Unless it's a 65-72 it's boring.
Chicks dig it, just not with guys in it. Women are one of the highest rankings in the Mustang demographic.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:45 AM   #6
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Yeah, being able to tool up and make things in mass quantities actually lowers costs because they can spread the cost of say a new engine's development over the 140k cars they plan to sell with that engine and easily make their money back.

The Mustang seems like easy money when you look at it. They look good, have cheap interiors, cheap chassis (that's shared with a lincoln I believe) not to mention the chassis uses old simple technology, and a decent motor. That's why they can sell them so cheap. And people buy them because they're a decent value and look good.

I hate to bring it up but I think Car and Driver said "As usual, the Camaro will outperform and undersell the Mustang". Which is likely true. Hopefully the price of the Camaro is right and they compete with the Mustang in price and it's true to a lesser extent.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:50 AM   #7
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I remember seeing on the wall of a drycleaners a sign which read:

"We have no quarrel with those who sell for less. They know what their product is worth".

Cheaper isn't always a good thing.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:59 AM   #8
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I remember seeing on the wall of a drycleaners a sign which read:

"We have no quarrel with those who sell for less. They know what their product is worth".

Cheaper isn't always a good thing.
THEY might, but does the normally uninformed public know? Nope, that's why you see so many damn Mustangs out there.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:01 AM   #9
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I'm with you. I believe the Mustang is worth what it costs. But I would rather pay Camaro money for GM engineering and performance. My experience with their cars has kept my expectations high. Camaros have always had badass performance. And with the improvements GM is making in the interior department I think they'll be the total package now.

Unfortunately for GM, a lot of people only see the numbers. The Mustang is 28k for a V8 model and they want the cheapest RWD platform to start with. A few extra grand for a Camaro may seem like a no brainer with 400hp though.
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Old 09-04-2008, 01:42 AM   #10
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The best part is the option on the bottom right: "Not sure".

And yes, I'm sure that the Camaro will outperform and undersell. Just so long as it sells enough to earn its keep, I'm fine with that. The discerning driver buys a Camaro. The rest just drive Mustangs.
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Old 09-04-2008, 03:46 AM   #11
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WHO THE F CARES ABOUT PREMIUM CRAP?

Just lump them all into one : V6 Coupe and vert, GT coupe and vert, GT500 coupe and vert, GT500kr, then the Bullitt. And then 8 models is still too much. the KR is a waste, imo. It makes a fugly KITT in attack mode.


The GT sucks. It's overpriced, and the base camaro can beat it. the V6 is totally underpowered and belongs in a Focus. Not a Mustang. Bullitt is probably the only one worth getting, but is still overpriced. GT500..... I have no problem with that.....
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Old 09-04-2008, 09:07 AM   #12
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^ugh I think i can see it crying a little bit.
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Old 09-04-2008, 10:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
On the Ford site, I was looking at pricing to compare with the recent rumors that the Camaro will cost $22k, which coincides with Premium Mustang prices.

Anyway, here's the link. These are all ordered from the factory. In other words, these are not special editions that are made by third parties. Isn't this about the worst possible business strategy? There are too many variations. Doesn't that bring up production costs?
This is an ignorant post. You do know that base and premium don't make it two different models right? So,we've got V6,GT,Bullitt,CS,GT500 and GT500KR....OH MY GOD......that's too many to count,i didn't know 5 was too many. The CS doesn't even count,it's just a stripe package,and the KR is too rare,so now we've got 4. V6,GT,Bullitt and GT500.........OH MY GOD......4 different Mustangs to choose from.........OH MY GOD......WHAT THE HELL IS FORD THINKING,giving people variation.....idiots.
Wha.....wait a minute,if we're being picky,what about the Camaro.Let's see,we've got LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS....Wait,let's not forget the Convertible.......LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS.......HOLY SHIT,that's too many Camaros to choose from,my tiny little petty little brain can't handle it,damn you GM.
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:07 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatarHol View Post
This is an ignorant post. You do know that base and premium don't make it two different models right? So,we've got V6,GT,Bullitt,CS,GT500 and GT500KR....OH MY GOD......that's too many to count,i didn't know 5 was too many. The CS doesn't even count,it's just a stripe package,and the KR is too rare,so now we've got 4. V6,GT,Bullitt and GT500.........OH MY GOD......4 different Mustangs to choose from.........OH MY GOD......WHAT THE HELL IS FORD THINKING,giving people variation.....idiots.
Wha.....wait a minute,if we're being picky,what about the Camaro.Let's see,we've got LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS....Wait,let's not forget the Convertible.......LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS.......HOLY SHIT,that's too many Camaros to choose from,my tiny little petty little brain can't handle it,damn you GM.
You're the ignorant one. Don't say the CS doesn't count. Ford put it up there as a model. You should know that the RS Package doesn't add another model to the lineup. RS package is an option- right next to options like leather seats and remote start. Maybe you need to remember the Convertibles in Ford's lineup. And yes. Convertibles mean another model added to the lineup:

V6 convertible
V6 coupe
GT convertible
GT coupe
GT500 convertible
GT500 coupe
V6 Pony Package (WTF?)
Bullitt
The KR does count. It's still a mustang. That's 9.
Not counting the V6 premium coupe, V6 premium convertible, GT premium coupe and GT premium convertible... again. I say WTF.

Camaro: LS (probably only a coupe) and LT Coupe and Convertible.
SS Coupe and Convertible.......
Yep. 5 doesn't seem like too much to count compared to your 14 Mudstains.
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:28 AM   #15
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So now Ford is wrong for offering a convertible for the Mustang?? It is not a seperate model,nor are the premium options a seperate model. The CS is a stripe package,an option package much like your precious RS and The KR is too ridiculous to even lump in with the rest of the lineup,but hey,if you want to count it,go ahead,it's not like you'll ever have a Camaro to compete with it. Maybe you should stop and think that MAYBE Ford knows what they're doing with the Mustang,i mean,we're the ones who've had a car since '02,boy,GM sure knows how to sell those pony cars don't they!!
Just think,they're bringing out a Camaro about 2 years after they should have,all the while killing all the hype and buzz for this thing because of their drawnout snail's pace of putting this thing on sale.Then,GM plays up the RS and not the SS,nobody will want the RS! Gee,do you think Ford has the upper hand,again,with the '10 Mustang. They'll have all the press,all the buzz,all the newness that GM had squandered. GM couldn't even build their own car,they had to go get the Australians to do it for them,all the while,everyone has to listen to you slobbering fanboys proclaiming the 2nd coming. I love Camaros,but you Camaro people,who most people on this board don't even own a Camaro,are getting annoying. It seems like a bunch of hopeful Cobalt owners mouthing off in here.
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatarHol View Post
This is an ignorant post. You do know that base and premium don't make it two different models right? So,we've got V6,GT,Bullitt,CS,GT500 and GT500KR....OH MY GOD......that's too many to count,i didn't know 5 was too many. The CS doesn't even count,it's just a stripe package,and the KR is too rare,so now we've got 4. V6,GT,Bullitt and GT500.........OH MY GOD......4 different Mustangs to choose from.........OH MY GOD......WHAT THE HELL IS FORD THINKING,giving people variation.....idiots.
Wha.....wait a minute,if we're being picky,what about the Camaro.Let's see,we've got LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS....Wait,let's not forget the Convertible.......LS,LT,RS,SS,SS/RS.......HOLY SHIT,that's too many Camaros to choose from,my tiny little petty little brain can't handle it,damn you GM.
Please don't call members of this site ignorant. I don't appreciate that it was my post that you called ignorant, but I'll nonetheless explain my problem with the Mustang format.

If you offer a base trim with packages, it seems less overwhelming to buyers. They all get the same car with different options. Ford is advertising the Mustang as having so many different trims that there is no longer a hierarchy. In other, more generalized words, a buyer can't just purchase a fully loaded Mustang because there are still too many options. Do I want these features or those features? Do I want this stripe package or that body kit? There are too many Mustangs to order with a full load.

For Camaro buyers, the dealers will be able to sell a lot of stripe and appearance packages, but GM will invest in only 2 designs that we are certain will make production. It's a cost savings for the company. That's one of my concerns with Ford.

The Camaro will have a hierarchy. The LS will have less options than the LT. The RS is universal and can be applied to everything, making the sale of the RS package an up-sell opportunity for dealers. For Ford buyers, the CS package is presented as a whole different Mustang. Instead of costing so many more dollars than a Mustang, it has a base price of its own. Additionally, the Camaro's hierarchy is based on option packages. In fact, the Camaro has about the same number as options organized into less cars—LS, LT, SS. Packages may include LT1 and LT2, but they will have different packages organized in a certain bundle that reduces the cost. The Mustang doesn't use GT1 or GT2, like Chevrolet. Instead, Ford tends to focus on appearance. If you visit Chevrolet's website, the packages per car stack on top of one another with a list of features. Ford uses photos to identify the exterior of the car. GM only differentiates the V6 from the V8 with a different front end.

What I'm saying here is that the priorities are different, and what we know to be cost-increasing features for the manufacturer, Ford uses as major selling points. That's pretty dangerous for today's market. No manufacturer, save Nissan, is doing well right now, and that means companies, like Ford, should be cutting costs. Instead, they're building more Mustang varieties out of the factory.

How's that for being ignorant?
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Old 09-04-2008, 11:47 AM   #17
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Please don't call members of this site ignorant. I don't appreciate that it was my post that you called ignorant, but I'll nonetheless explain my problem with the Mustang format.

If you offer a base trim with packages, it seems less overwhelming to buyers. They all get the same car with different options. Ford is advertising the Mustang as having so many different trims that there is no longer a hierarchy. In other, more generalized words, a buyer can't just purchase a fully loaded Mustang because there are still too many options. Do I want these features or those features? Do I want this stripe package or that body kit? There are too many Mustangs to order with a full load.

For Camaro buyers, the dealers will be able to sell a lot of stripe and appearance packages, but GM will invest in only 2 designs that we are certain will make production. It's a cost savings for the company. That's one of my concerns with Ford.

The Camaro will have a hierarchy. The LS will have less options than the LT. The RS is universal and can be applied to everything, making the sale of the RS package an up-sell opportunity for dealers. For Ford buyers, the CS package is presented as a whole different Mustang. Instead of costing so many more dollars than a Mustang, it has a base price of its own. Additionally, the Camaro's hierarchy is based on option packages. In fact, the Camaro has about the same number as options organized into less cars—LS, LT, SS. Packages may include LT1 and LT2, but they will have different packages organized in a certain bundle that reduces the cost. The Mustang doesn't use GT1 or GT2, like Chevrolet. Instead, Ford tends to focus on appearance. If you visit Chevrolet's website, the packages per car stack on top of one another with a list of features. Ford uses photos to identify the exterior of the car. GM only differentiates the V6 from the V8 with a different front end.

What I'm saying here is that the priorities are different, and what we know to be cost-increasing features for the manufacturer, Ford uses as major selling points. That's pretty dangerous for today's market. No manufacturer, save Nissan, is doing well right now, and that means companies, like Ford, should be cutting costs. Instead, they're building more Mustang varieties out of the factory.

How's that for being ignorant?
The "HEIRARCHY" isn't options,it's V6,GT,Bullitt,Shelby.....leather seats do not make a heirarchy. People aren't stupid,it's not hard to order what you want,most people buy off the lot. Your argument is lame,you just wanted to join up with the other sheep and blast the Mustang for no reason other than it's not the car you like. Don't give me crap about "it's hard to pick options,there's too many for simple-minded buyers to choose from",that was ignorant. I'm all for any good natured Mustang vs Camaro stuff,but this was a stupid point to pick on,yeah,give the buyers what they want.....what the hell is Ford thinking?? Again,where has the Camaro been since '02,maybe GM should take some tips before they kill this one too.
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:02 PM   #18
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Old 09-04-2008, 12:49 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatarHol View Post
The "HEIRARCHY" isn't options,it's V6,GT,Bullitt,Shelby.....leather seats do not make a heirarchy. People aren't stupid,it's not hard to order what you want,most people buy off the lot. Your argument is lame,you just wanted to join up with the other sheep and blast the Mustang for no reason other than it's not the car you like. Don't give me crap about "it's hard to pick options,there's too many for simple-minded buyers to choose from",that was ignorant. I'm all for any good natured Mustang vs Camaro stuff,but this was a stupid point to pick on,yeah,give the buyers what they want.....what the hell is Ford thinking?? Again,where has the Camaro been since '02,maybe GM should take some tips before they kill this one too.


Please, don't make these assumptions. I'm not blasting the Mustang. As someone with sales experience who could be selling cars by the end of the year, I can tell you that the Mustang selling format is not as good as the Camaro one from a salesperson's point of view. When the salesperson has some power of price manipulation—to up-sell options, to encourage cheap additions—they can make better sales. A lot of buyers want to save money, but some come into a shop wanting something specific. If you want something specific, then you are not going to be affected either way. You will do your research and pick you product. Most buyers are not so thorough. Most buyers do some research but go into the business expecting some explanation and help from the salesperson. At the same time, they want to spend as little as possible. That means that the base V6 Mustang will be more appealing than a Mustang CS, but if the salesperson can sign the person up for a Mustang and add a vinyl package for less than the difference, then the salesperson is going to sell better. If you're not in sales, it's a little difficult to really explain the mindset of a salesperson. I can tell you from my experience, which includes work on commission, that more products get sold when salespeople are motivated to sell them, and the Mustang format is not all that encouraging to salespeople. It can be sold, and it has been sold well, but it could be arranged in a better way.

Furthermore, since you have such a quarrel with my hierarchy philosophy of sales, I think I should explain it again. Both the Mustang and the Camaro can be sold this way, but only the Camaro gets this treatment. This method is less confusing than any other method.

• base [insert product here]
• interior options
• exterior options
• performance options
• mid-level [insert product here]
• more interior options
• more exterior options
• same or more performance options
• fully loaded [insert product here]
• trim-specific interior options
• trim-specific exterior options
• less but better performance options
• special edition [insert product here]
• interior options
• exterior options
• few or no performance options
• separate items (through dealer or accessory company)
• interior customization options
• exterior customization options
• performance customization options
Each of these tiers has a base price. Options can be added in packages, such as LT1 or LT2 or added independently. Bundled options cost less on the whole than individual accessories, but buyers can choose different varieties for customization. Organizing it this way allows buyers to see the value of buying options in a package, but those that want some options and not the whole package can purchase them individually. By setting a base price for bundles and packages like the Mustang does, prices do not reflect a savings to the consumer, thus making them undesirable. If a customer could purchase the vinyl for the CS package for less than the CS package, they might purchase that and another option that puts them over the cost of a CS package, thus producing extra profit and reducing upkeep costs for the parts that otherwise rot in a warehouse.

This is a business plan, not a Mustang-bashing post. I'm saying that I, as a person with some notable sales experience, do not like the format of Mustang sales because it is bad for Ford and the dealership in comparison to the GM layout. They are both sellable, and I'm sure that Ford is just fine doing this layout. It puts more work on the shoulders of the buyer, which I think is unnecessary, and it makes pitching more options harder because they all have fixed base MSRPs. If there were only 2 tiers (V6 and V8) of Mustang with more options given in packages, then they would all cost less and buyers would be more likely to consider packages they would otherwise overlook. When so much weight is on the consumer, they tend to resort to the cheapest available product and shut out any additional features or options.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Chevy guy. That doesn't mean I think GM is perfect or that they always do it right. I'm just saying that Ford, from my experience and perspective, should look to GM's example.
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Old 09-04-2008, 05:42 PM   #20
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People can knock Ford all they want for having so many models, but no one can argue with their volume of sales.

Plus, when we think about it, this is the line up for the Camaro:

LS
LT
LT vert
LT/RS
LT/RS vert
SS
SS vert
SS/RS
SS/RS vert

When presented like this, it makes it look like Chevy's offering a lot more models than they really are, as the RS models are more packages than different models. It's the same with the Mustangs on Ford's homepage. The Bullitt and the CS are more like appearance packages put on the GT, but they are advertised as different models because it's a good marketing strategy. I'm sure GM will do the same with the Camaro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TorrentRS
The GT sucks. It's overpriced, and the base camaro can beat it.
The GT has one of the best horsepower-per-dollar ratio of any car out there. The Challenger is the one that's overpriced. Even though the V6 Camaro has an equal number of horses to the GT, the GT produces more torque, has better access to that power, and weighs less than the Camaro. Although I do own a GT, I'm not a fanboy and do appreciate all pony cars. However, you have to give credit where it's due, and the GT deserves far more credit than many here are willing to give.

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Old 09-04-2008, 06:07 PM   #21
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Holy cow batman... so much misinformation in this thread its amazing... where to start...

Part 1...
Officially the mustang comes in 3 trims(V6, GT, GT500). Everything else is an OPTION.

The KR and any other special models (saleen, roush, etc..) are an aftermarket upgrade (think lingefelter, berger, tom henry, etc...).

Part 2..

The mustang is cheap.. show me another car that gives you 300HP for 27k out the door? OR how about a RWD coupe that sells for under 20k?...

Thats right there isnt one.. Its also NOT overpriced for what you get. Its actually a VERY good bargin. Its not mercedes or Beemer quality .. but it doent need to be, the materials last, don't wear out, and dont look like dog poop many years down the line.

Part 3 ...
Value wise again, you can boost the base GT up to about 400HP-445HP with forced induction WITH NO ENGINE MODS. Thats right ... stock crank, pistons, valves on 400HP and still have a reliable daily driver that WONT leave you on the side of the road every 1k miles.

Really at the end of the day, you have to look at sales, guess what they made a KILLING off the new model and rightly so, it looks OK, it gets decent mileage, and its a bargin of a sports car.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:09 PM   #22
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Chix still don't dig it...

Camaro > Mustang
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
Holy cow batman... so much misinformation in this thread its amazing... where to start...

Part 1...
Officially the mustang comes in 3 trims(V6, GT, GT500). Everything else is an OPTION.

The KR and any other special models (saleen, roush, etc..) are an aftermarket upgrade (think lingefelter, berger, tom henry, etc...).

Part 2..

The mustang is cheap.. show me another car that gives you 300HP for 27k out the door? OR how about a RWD coupe that sells for under 20k?...

Thats right there isnt one.. Its also NOT overpriced for what you get. Its actually a VERY good bargin. Its not mercedes or Beemer quality .. but it doent need to be, the materials last, don't wear out, and dont look like dog poop many years down the line.

Part 3 ...
Value wise again, you can boost the base GT up to about 400HP-445HP with forced induction WITH NO ENGINE MODS. Thats right ... stock crank, pistons, valves on 400HP and still have a reliable daily driver that WONT leave you on the side of the road every 1k miles.

Really at the end of the day, you have to look at sales, guess what they made a KILLING off the new model and rightly so, it looks OK, it gets decent mileage, and its a bargin of a sports car.
I'm not saying that the Mustang has too many trims. I'm saying that the way Mustangs are sold and displayed produces the appearance of too many trims. That's the problems.

I'm also saying that the bang for the buck on the Camaro beats the bang for the buck on the Mustang. The Mustang is a great car. It has a lot of selling points. Chevy is making sure that the Camaro has more.

On your third point, I could not agree more. Ford offers kits for the GT that boost to 400 horses. They are very confident in their engines with good reason.
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Old 09-07-2008, 04:35 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
I'm not saying that the Mustang has too many trims. I'm saying that the way Mustangs are sold and displayed produces the appearance of too many trims. That's the problems.

I'm also saying that the bang for the buck on the Camaro beats the bang for the buck on the Mustang. The Mustang is a great car. It has a lot of selling points. Chevy is making sure that the Camaro has more.

On your third point, I could not agree more. Ford offers kits for the GT that boost to 400 horses. They are very confident in their engines with good reason.
did you know those same kits raise the weight on the mustang to chally's territory??


i looked at a 435hp rousch that weighed 4100-4200lbs
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Old 09-07-2008, 05:42 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
did you know those same kits raise the weight on the mustang to chally's territory??


i looked at a 435hp rousch that weighed 4100-4200lbs
I didn't even think of how much weight those parts could add.
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