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Old 09-08-2008, 05:38 PM   #26
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Attachment 7547

It just never ends...

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Old 09-08-2008, 05:38 PM   #27
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Can you say Clone

Well if we don't get a Z28 we can always go clone with aftermarket stuff, lol. Look how many 69Z28 clones are out there now.

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Old 09-08-2008, 05:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
By now everyone on this forum has the information from GM that they will not be manufacturing a 2010 Z/28 Camaro.
No...we don't actually. Nobody, not even Scott has said that the Z28 is not going to be manufactured. They HAVE said, however, that there will be no Z28 out of the gate. There is a difference in terminology.

The "FACT" is it is not going to come out with a blower.
You don't know that. I don't know that. I doubt even GM knows that for 100% certain. Things change constantly; and the only FACT we have, is that the original plans for Z28 have become difficult to implement due to CAFE among other things. However your following points lend your idea credit:

The Z/28 in 1969 was built to compete in Trans Am racing."FACT" The best shot of getting a Z/28 back is to trace it to it's roots.... This car would be stripped of comfort features like leather,power windows,air conditioning etc... Have the car come in at around 3,000 to 3,200 LBS.
Such an idea will never wear the Z28 badge -- because a stripped-down-to-nothing-but-an-engine-and-a-frame car is not a Z28. What you propose (besides nearing on the impossible) will not be street legal. How do I know? Because Chrysler already did this. The Drag Challenger is near 3000 lbs, and it is NOT street legal.

But besides that, there are two problems with this thinking.
#1; a very few people will find a 100% stripped car appealing. Such a very few that the costs to implement such a Camaro will probably outweigh the sales revenue.

#2; You'll never get a streetable Zeta car down to 3000 lbs. 3600 maybe...if you try REAL hard, and spend LOTS of money, and sacrifice some durability.

However, this is not to say that I don't agree with you. I think a lower-weight, track-oriented Z28 is probably the route that will be taken. The good news is, the R+D for such a weight program could filter down to the rest of the Camaro's trim levels. Related: Holden Commodore

With bolt on parts as I described above this would indeed be the car to own and it would be cheaper than a super charged Z/28.
No it wouldn't. Most definitely not. What you proposed would be outrageously expensive. The weight-loss methods and materials alone would equal or go beyond the costs for a supercharger and supporting mods. Then you must factor in the costs associated to actually BUILDING this thing on the assembly line (it's not your average Camaro, and would require specialized attention)...or hand-building it (see: expensive).
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Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
The Camaro brand manager said there would be no Super Charged 2010 Camaro. Did you not see that statement? Lutz also stated Camaro would not have a Super Charger. That is "FACT". If you cant find these quotes I will email them to you.
I know you're talking to TAG, but I'd like to see these quotes too, please. Because it shocks me that I have no recollection of ANY of them.

In you last quote you said that GM is going to build what makes them money. You are 100% correct with that. If GM builds a Z/28 with the idea less is more regarding less weight and more power I think the car would be profitable and powerful. I am not trying to start a fight, just trying to show an option of how to get what we want. Jeff
I think you're making an awful lot of assumptions regarding losing weight v. adding a supercharger as they relate to cost......
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Old 09-08-2008, 07:55 PM   #29
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lol,lol,lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seattlecamaroboy View Post
How many threads is this guy going to create about the "Z28" that was never mentioned officially once? Talk about ridiculous. It's like watching the stages of grief after a death. Anger, Reckoning, Bargaining, Acceptance. He's on bargaining now. Trying to convince himself that there is another way to build his fantasy car. LOL HAHAAHHA

Dude, for your own sanity, here's your answer. Buy a damn SS when it comes out and shut up Convince yourself that you don't need to have more than 425 horses. Or if you do, bolt on a damn supercharger.

Dude that was funny as hell the first part. "It's like watching the stages of grief after a death. Anger, Reckoning, Bargaining, Acceptance. He's on bargaining now". I busted a gut over that one.

Love it. Dude please let me use that as a futer quote.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:28 AM   #30
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You know what? I'm done.

I see no purpose in beating a dead horse. I'm just getting no where...and am forcing people to read the same old posts over and over again.

No disrespect to you Jeff. None at all. Just tired.
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Old 09-09-2008, 02:42 AM   #31
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You know what? I'm done.

I see no purpose in beating a dead horse. I'm just getting no where...and am forcing people to read the same old posts over and over again.

No disrespect to you Jeff. None at all. Just tired.
I agree wit Tag Fam! Just give it up Jeff
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Old 09-09-2008, 08:46 AM   #32
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You know what? I'm done.

I see no purpose in beating a dead horse. I'm just getting no where...and am forcing people to read the same old posts over and over again.

No disrespect to you Jeff. None at all. Just tired.
Mybe we oughta send some of these to the rendering plant for conversion into dog food?????? Fertilizer??????

Or some similar use for this kind of stuff. (and I use the term stuff as an analogy for what I am really thinking!)
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:35 PM   #33
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It all hinges on future SS Sales. If you look at Challenger V8's, other than excited pre order folks they are sitting on the lots right now. If that happens to SS forget it. If SS does sell strong, then maybe they might have some money to spend on Z28.
Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of the Challengers on the roads, but I'm seeing a couple Challenger's also sitting at the lots at every Dodge dealer that I drive by. However what Dodge dealers did with the Challenger, Chevy dealers will do with the ZR1, and Nissan dealers are doing to the GT-R, is they are marking up the price for these cars big time. I walked in a Dodge dealer just to look at the Challenger SRT-8, early this summer and guess how much they were asking for it? 70k I'm not joking either. The dealer mark-up is horrible and chances are it's probably going to happen to the Camaro SS too when it first comes out... NOTE: Only 2000 (08) Challengers were produced so it was also in created first year in limited quantities. Hopefully GM corporate can pressure the Chevy dealers...

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Originally Posted by Txturbo View Post
True for 2010....but who knows what might become available in 2011 or 2012 model years.
Everyone can speculate all they want on here. The only fact that we know is that GM said they aren't producing a 600hp Camaro, and that the Z28 program is indefinitely on hold.

Whether that means the Z28 will come out in like 2011, or 2012 who knows... All we can do is pray it does come out.

? to consider too is how much do you think the Z28 will cost? Probably 40-55k...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
2012 45th ann LS9 Z28 limited production.
You never know...

Quote:
Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
When you sell your Cobalt and step up to the plate and buy a Camaro then come and talk to me.
lol Hey! I drive a Cobalt!
I do drive a Cobalt SS, but I'm far from a 19yr old and am planning on getting the Camaro next anyways...
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Old 09-09-2008, 01:55 PM   #34
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By now everyone on this forum has the information from GM that they will not be manufacturing a 2010 Z/28 Camaro. "FACT" Many forum members are still holding out for the almighty Super Charged Z/28.
True. There are still people holding out for the S/C Z28. Although I think your statement is more of an assertion than a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
"I was one of these people" The "FACT" is it is not going to come out with a blower.
That is not a fact. Actually it's a statement made by someone with no clue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
The Z/28 in 1969 was built to compete in Trans Am racing.
Ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
"FACT" The best shot of getting a Z/28 back is to trace it to it's roots.
This is an opinion. You need to learn how to differentiate fact and opinion. You seem to have a hard time grasping the meaning of the two.

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Originally Posted by IROCZJEFF View Post
The LS3 power plant is a good motor so how do you make power out of a motor/platform that is good to start with? REDUCE WEIGHT! Build a 2011 Camaro Z/28 with the thoughts of racing, make the car light as can be. My thoughts are to have a 1LE type package but with over the counter parts through GM avalible such as factory header, exhaust, special ground cams, etc... This car would be stripped of comfort features like leather,power windows,air conditioning etc... Have the car come in at around 3,000 to 3,200 LBS. With bolt on parts as I described above this would indeed be the car to own and it would be cheeaper than a super charged Z/28. This car would be faster and lighter than a super charged car hands down! The Shelby is a pig! Check out the power to weight ratio. Look at the new Challenger's power to weight ratio. Pig! My friends the Z/28 can be built cheaper and lighter! Let start to think forward instead of backwards! Jeff
This is all fine and dandy if you want a race-only Z28 that is not street legal. GM can make a few of them like the drag-pack Challenger, but they won't be street legal, you won't see them driving around, and you most likely won't own one. It won't compete with the GT500 because the GT500 (although a pig) has a full interior, sound system, etc... Going by what Fbodfather has said, to pass crash test safety standards, if GM really tried they might be able to get the Z28 in at 3700 pounds but that will be tough. Yes the LS3 is a great motor and with some massaging they could probably get it to 480 HP N/A and @ 3700 lbs it would be close to the GT500 in terms of power to weight. However the GT500 has the mod potential that a N/A Camaro can't really compete with.

Personally, I don't really care if they make a Z28. The SS was always king in my book anyway and I would have no problem buying a loaded SS and modding it to my own satisfaction.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:22 PM   #35
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i dont understand why couldnt they put a the z06s engine in the camaro? or is this been discussed alredy?

no flaming please
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:32 PM   #36
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The LS7 has pretty much been confirmed to be discontinued soon, along with the LS2. There was some speculation elsewhere that there was another version of a supercharged 6.2, called the LS8, that was thought to be the replacement for the LS7, but there has been no confirmation In addition, 'Father himself has said using the LS7 would put an extraordinary price on Camaro, so it's definately out.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:38 PM   #37
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The problem I always see with the Z/28 issue is that everyone either wants one of two things...

A. forced induction engine.
B. reduced weight.

The reasons against EITHER of these is so obvious its hard for me not to shake my head ...

With forced induction you start to kill gas mileage... so this is going to be a cafe negative meaning that they will want to limit the total # of produced units.. aka a marked up specialty vehicle. So all those waiting will either have to wait longer (due to lines and limited production) OR they will be paying a LARGE premium.

With reduced weight... people forget that this camaro was built on a SEDAN chasis meaning that a good portion of the weight is in the chassis, NOT in things like electronics, accessories etc.. The most absolute most the camaro could lose would be about 500lbs. BUT to achieve this you will be losing basically everything but the engine and required equipment (front airbags, turn signals, wipers, third brake light). What this means is you wont get a back seat, or sound dampening, or carpet, or a dash, or power anything, no sound, no radio, no hvac.... and now how many do you think when they charge upwards of 40-50k(yes changes in the manufacturing pocess cost this much!) for a stripped out hull? People will look at it and say.. nope i can have all that back for the same price for a GT500 with less of the wait time.

Honestly if 400HP+ HP isn't enough for you then pretty much ANY production car under 40k isn't for you. If you want to spend more than that start looking into the right market because the camaro isn't it.
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Old 09-12-2008, 05:38 PM   #38
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I'm going looking for the aftermarket place that can build me this
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Old 09-12-2008, 09:51 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
The problem I always see with the Z/28 issue is that everyone either wants one of two things...

A. forced induction engine.
B. reduced weight.

The reasons against EITHER of these is so obvious its hard for me not to shake my head ...
I wonder though, Diarmadhi...if you nailed the reasons we're talking about this....but kept them separate. When the Z28 comes out...chances are it'll cost more than an SS. Probably, like you said, in the range of ~$40,000-$50,000. As far as I can tell -- people generally accept this. So...the underlying argument at this point is what to do with that extra $10-$20 grand?

Should they take some mass out (maybe a little less than the V6), bump the V8 a few ponies, and severely beat down the GT500 on the track?

Or should they strap on a blower, reinforce the drive-train, and beat down the GT500 on the drag strip?

Both of these routes would stay comfortable in the sense that you still have HVAC, and radio, etc...but they differ in their approach to performance and conformity to CAFE, imo.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:17 PM   #40
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Could def see it happening. But who in their right mind is going to wait yet another 4 years??
who in their right mind would pay the price dealers would want for that lol.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:30 PM   #41
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If GM is looking to reduce weight on the vehicle. Perhaps they could go in this direction for frame metal use.
1. Aircraft aluminum alloy
2. Titanium carbon w/ compressed Aluminum alloy.
3. 4142 steel “chromoly”
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:34 PM   #42
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If GM is looking to reduce weight on the vehicle. Perhaps they could go in this direction for frame metal use.
1. Aircraft aluminum alloy
2. Titanium carbon w/ compressed Aluminum alloy.
3. 4142 steel “chromoly”
prob. too expensive.
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:46 PM   #43
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In regards to being very $. I am all to aware of that. People are already saying that the car would be limited production. They are expecting to pay $45-50K, for the car. So keep the car as is for the most part. Maybe add a blower and do a cam/ pulley swap. Lower the car 1 inch with the reduced weight. Tune the suspension similar but not exactly like the ZR1, and there you go. Reduce weight with synthetic or elemental materials, and there you have it. No CAFÉ issues, no use of a more expensive engine, and every ones happy.
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Old 09-12-2008, 11:09 PM   #44
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In regards to being very $. I am all to aware of that. People are already saying that the car would be limited production. They are expecting to pay $45-50K, for the car. So keep the car as is for the most part. Maybe add a blower and do a cam/ pulley swap. Lower the car 1 inch with the reduced weight. Tune the suspension similar but not exactly like the ZR1, and there you go. Reduce weight with synthetic or elemental materials, and there you have it. No CAFÉ issues, no use of a more expensive engine, and every ones happy.
probably more towards the 50-60k range IMO.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:56 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
The problem I always see with the Z/28 issue is that everyone either wants one of two things...

A. forced induction engine.
B. reduced weight.

The reasons against EITHER of these is so obvious its hard for me not to shake my head ...

With forced induction you start to kill gas mileage... so this is going to be a cafe negative meaning that they will want to limit the total # of produced units.. aka a marked up specialty vehicle. So all those waiting will either have to wait longer (due to lines and limited production) OR they will be paying a LARGE premium.

With reduced weight... people forget that this camaro was built on a SEDAN chasis meaning that a good portion of the weight is in the chassis, NOT in things like electronics, accessories etc.. The most absolute most the camaro could lose would be about 500lbs. BUT to achieve this you will be losing basically everything but the engine and required equipment (front airbags, turn signals, wipers, third brake light). What this means is you wont get a back seat, or sound dampening, or carpet, or a dash, or power anything, no sound, no radio, no hvac.... and now how many do you think when they charge upwards of 40-50k(yes changes in the manufacturing pocess cost this much!) for a stripped out hull? People will look at it and say.. nope i can have all that back for the same price for a GT500 with less of the wait time.

Honestly if 400HP+ HP isn't enough for you then pretty much ANY production car under 40k isn't for you. If you want to spend more than that start looking into the right market because the camaro isn't it.
Dude you just made some really good sense! I like how you worded that! LoL!
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Old 09-13-2008, 08:41 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
The problem I always see with the Z/28 issue is that everyone either wants one of two things...

A. forced induction engine.
B. reduced weight.

The reasons against EITHER of these is so obvious its hard for me not to shake my head ...

With forced induction you start to kill gas mileage... so this is going to be a cafe negative meaning that they will want to limit the total # of produced units.. aka a marked up specialty vehicle. So all those waiting will either have to wait longer (due to lines and limited production) OR they will be paying a LARGE premium.

With reduced weight... people forget that this camaro was built on a SEDAN chasis meaning that a good portion of the weight is in the chassis, NOT in things like electronics, accessories etc.. The most absolute most the camaro could lose would be about 500lbs. BUT to achieve this you will be losing basically everything but the engine and required equipment (front airbags, turn signals, wipers, third brake light). What this means is you wont get a back seat, or sound dampening, or carpet, or a dash, or power anything, no sound, no radio, no hvac.... and now how many do you think when they charge upwards of 40-50k(yes changes in the manufacturing pocess cost this much!) for a stripped out hull? People will look at it and say.. nope i can have all that back for the same price for a GT500 with less of the wait time.

Honestly if 400HP+ HP isn't enough for you then pretty much ANY production car under 40k isn't for you. If you want to spend more than that start looking into the right market because the camaro isn't it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
I wonder though, Diarmadhi...if you nailed the reasons we're talking about this....but kept them separate. When the Z28 comes out...chances are it'll cost more than an SS. Probably, like you said, in the range of ~$40,000-$50,000. As far as I can tell -- people generally accept this. So...the underlying argument at this point is what to do with that extra $10-$20 grand?

Should they take some mass out (maybe a little less than the V6), bump the V8 a few ponies, and severely beat down the GT500 on the track?

Or should they strap on a blower, reinforce the drive-train, and beat down the GT500 on the drag strip?

Both of these routes would stay comfortable in the sense that you still have HVAC, and radio, etc...but they differ in their approach to performance and conformity to CAFE, imo.
I'd plan on spending about $45K on what I'd like regarding a higher performance Camaro. It would definately be nice for GM to do on of these (the latter, preferably ) but I guess we have to wait and see

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevin2323 View Post
probably more towards the 50-60k range IMO.
I wonder how much of the price of an LS7 is affected by the materials they use. The titanium rods, according to: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showth...price+ls7+rods are $441 EACH Additionally, considering the price (allegedly - http://www.z06vette.com/forums/f7/c6...enders-106015/) of a single CF fender on a Z06 is about $400 a fender, the talk of using exotic materials, and keeping price close to a GT500, IMVHO, just don't add up. GM isn't going to use titanium in the suspension, and they aren't likely to go through more crash testing for CF body panels so I just can't bite on the whole light-weight thing. People may point to aftermarket examples as being relatively cheap, however, I'm pretty sure GM's testing standards really explode the price because of all the R&D they do on everything. No disrespect, but I just don't see the light-weight thing happening. I don't see a $70K Camaro, from GM, in the cards...
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Old 09-13-2008, 09:30 AM   #47
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I didn't even bother reading this entire thread after the first post before I thought of my response......

There is nothing to say about any Z/28 untill you hear it directly from Fbodfather. I'm sick and tired of people formulating their own opinions, and then trying to shop them around to us as "facts", when all they are are myths and possibilities.

Untill Scott gives us the truth as he knows them to be, whether they will make the Z/28 or not, and if so how it will be built, there is nothing for anyone to say about it.

As Scott has said, all their plans for the car are up in the air, but nothing has been comitted. In other words, if he don't know, then YOU don't know!

Give it a rest and move on with life. Buy an SS and be happy.
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Old 09-13-2008, 11:36 AM   #48
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I didn't even bother reading this entire thread after the first post before I thought of my response......

There is nothing to say about any Z/28 untill you hear it directly from Fbodfather. I'm sick and tired of people formulating their own opinions, and then trying to shop them around to us as "facts", when all they are are myths and possibilities.

Untill Scott gives us the truth as he knows them to be, whether they will make the Z/28 or not, and if so how it will be built, there is nothing for anyone to say about it.

As Scott has said, all their plans for the car are up in the air, but nothing has been comitted. In other words, if he don't know, then YOU don't know!

Give it a rest and move on with life. Buy an SS and be happy.

With all due respect, I don't think it's appropropriate to leave a response without reading the content of the thread if you are going to tell someone what to do, buy, or be happy with. If you're sick and tired of reading threads like these, then stop. Some people value opinions and ideas of others.

JMVHO.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:46 PM   #49
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if the CAFE regulations dont go into affect until 2020, i dont understand why they cant build the s/c version now and then still have time to change a few things about it and get within the standards before then. they could build it for a few years and then totally re do it before regulations kick in.
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Old 09-13-2008, 02:48 PM   #50
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personally speaking, i just want a camaro with the name plate "Z/28", i dont care if its lighter, or flames come out of the tailpipe, cause for me to say "I onw a Camaro Z/28", thats like saying "I own you, now go get me a donut", but anyway no one else can associate their car name with Z/28 unless they have a camaro, and Z/28 is like the most unique title EVER

i wouldnt mind some fire breathing tailpipes though
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