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View Poll Results: Pay for the performance?
Yet, whatever it takes to beat the GT500. 107 70.39%
No, I want this car to be cheap as possible, but remain competitive. 45 29.61%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-26-2010, 06:52 AM   #1
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Z/28: Pay for the performance.

For the sake of argument, assume the following:
*Z/28 and GT500 are in the same target market.
**Z/28 receives the CTS-V powertrain, while remaining at the same HP/TQ ratings found in the CTS-V.
***An increase in the LSA's power would be given by economical means, such as a less restrictive tune, exhaust, etc.
****Lightweight parts tend to cost more.

As Camaro5 members are aware of by now is that the 2011 GT500 has managed to lose ~100lbs while boosting its HP up to 550. It now currently weighs under the 2010 SS. The diet and newfound power of the upcoming GT500 makes for a formidable opponent.*

The Z/28 will roughly weigh in around 4000 lbs. This combined with the LSA's power, will not manage to outdo the 2011 GT500 in the 1/4 mile.** As the SVT Performance Package has yet to be tested (as far that I'm aware of), the circuit abilities of the vehicle are unknown. GM has two directions they can go in order to outperform the GT500: Increase the LSA's output, or shed some weight. Both have their consequences; the LSA's increased output may reduce its already average MPG ratings and reduce aftermarket gains.*** Losing weight would result in a decent hike price that some may not want to pay.****

Now the question is, would you pay extra money for the pride of beating its competition?
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:04 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by a_Username View Post
For the sake of argument, assume the following:
*Z/28 and GT500 are in the same target market.
**Z/28 receives the CTS-V powertrain, while remaining at the same HP/TQ ratings found in the CTS-V.
***An increase in the LSA's power would be given by economical means, such as a less restrictive tune, exhaust, etc.
****Lightweight parts tend to cost more.

As Camaro5 members are aware of by now is that the 2011 GT500 has managed to lose ~100lbs while boosting its HP up to 550. It now currently weighs under the 2010 SS. The diet and newfound power of the upcoming GT500 makes for a formidable opponent.*

The Z/28 will roughly weigh in around 4000 lbs. This combined with the LSA's power, will not manage to outdo the 2011 GT500 in the 1/4 mile.** As the SVT Performance Package has yet to be tested (as far that I'm aware of), the circuit abilities of the vehicle are unknown. GM has two directions they can go in order to outperform the GT500: Increase the LSA's output, or shed some weight. Both have their consequences; the LSA's increased output may reduce its already average MPG ratings and reduce aftermarket gains.*** Losing weight would result in a decent hike price that some may not want to pay.****

Now the question is, would you pay extra money for the pride of beating its competition?
Personally gas mileage isn't a big deal for me. I grew up driving a lifted jeep so my gas mileage was horrible to start with so that's pretty much what I'm used to. However, my jeep wasn't fast at all... So it's time for me to have something fast that gets bad gas mileage . The only problem is, what weight would they be able to shed. I've heard that the stock mufflers are heavy, so that could go. But other than that nothing comes to mind. Time to move over to carbon fiber but you can definitely expect the Z28 to be outrageously priced if it's made of carbon fiber.

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Old 02-26-2010, 07:09 AM   #3
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I would hands down, but I don't have a money for a Z28 anymore after buying my camaro. But if I hadn't bought mine I definitely still would be saving for the z28. I just didn't think it would come out for quite a few years and I couldn't wait that long. Plus I don't really think it will take much to beat the GT mustangs. This acutally just happened two days ago on my way home from work. I saw a mustang in my rearview mirror and he was riding my butt. As soon as he can he gets into the right hand lane to pull up next to me and I see that it's a GT. So she looks over at me revs her engine and tries to pass me in the right lane. I let her get ahead because where we were usually has a lot of speed traps. I was just hoping she would get a ticket for speeding and wouldn't that be hilarious, but of course no cops out at that time. So as soon as I realize it's safe I accelerate to pull up next to her. She gets pissed that I caught up so she puts her foot to the floor and tries to speed off again. I drop my car into 4th and book it past her. She tried to keep up for a good mile, but no luck so she gave up. I can't even imagine how pissed she was that 1) a camaro beat her and 2) it's a 2LT. If I was her I would be quite embarrassed buying that slow, ugly, waste of money car. I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I've never cared for the look of any mustang. I now the camaro has gone through a few rough generations too, but at least GM finally figured it out. Not trying to change this thread to a bash on mustangs, bottomline is that I don't think GM will have to do much more to stay ahead of nexts years GT's if their 2LT's are already beating them.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:13 AM   #4
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Not trying to change this thread to a bash on mustangs, bottomline is that I don't think GM will have to do much more to stay ahead of nexts years GT's if their 2LT's are already beating them.
The entire point of the thread was comparing the Z28 to the new GT500's not the regular GT's. Hope I didn't come off rude, I definitely wasn't trying to .

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Old 02-26-2010, 07:49 AM   #5
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I am under the impression that GM no longer builds any car to meet the competition, but rather to beat them. If the GT500 is the target, and I am sure it is, we can expect that by whatever means it will be superior in all categories, and like the SS it will probably be priced a little above the GT500. The big wildcard is if they will allow it to have a gas guzzler tax.
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Old 02-26-2010, 07:57 AM   #6
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let's be realistic here.how much does a shelby gt500 cost.it's a lot more than most of us can afford.yes,if indeed gm desides to build a Z28,i certainly would love to own one,but i can't afford $50,000 for an automobile.so if gm builds the car they have got to keep it affordable for the average car buyer.let's also not forget,the shelby is not a factory production car.we are not talking apples and apples here.if you want to run with the gt 500,go get a hennessey and you will have a warranty.if the z28 is built,gm is probably doing it to run with the new ford 5.0L engine.that engine will be strong.so in conclusion,to answer your question,yes i would love to have a camaro to out run the gt 500,but i am not going to hock my house to do it.
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Old 02-26-2010, 08:14 AM   #7
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let's be realistic here.how much does a shelby gt500 cost.it's a lot more than most of us can afford.yes,if indeed gm desides to build a Z28,i certainly would love to own one,but i can't afford $50,000 for an automobile.so if gm builds the car they have got to keep it affordable for the average car buyer.let's also not forget,the shelby is not a factory production car.we are not talking apples and apples here.if you want to run with the gt 500,go get a hennessey and you will have a warranty.if the z28 is built,gm is probably doing it to run with the new ford 5.0L engine.that engine will be strong.so in conclusion,to answer your question,yes i would love to have a camaro to out run the gt 500,but i am not going to hock my house to do it.
The GT500 is a factory car built at the Ford Mustang plant in Michigan, i believe. Its base price is 48K.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:19 AM   #8
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For the sake of argument, assume the following:
*Z/28 and GT500 are in the same target market.
**Z/28 receives the CTS-V powertrain, while remaining at the same HP/TQ ratings found in the CTS-V.
***An increase in the LSA's power would be given by economical means, such as a less restrictive tune, exhaust, etc.
****Lightweight parts tend to cost more.

As Camaro5 members are aware of by now is that the 2011 GT500 has managed to lose ~100lbs while boosting its HP up to 550. It now currently weighs under the 2010 SS. The diet and newfound power of the upcoming GT500 makes for a formidable opponent.*

The Z/28 will roughly weigh in around 4000 lbs. This combined with the LSA's power, will not manage to outdo the 2011 GT500 in the 1/4 mile.** As the SVT Performance Package has yet to be tested (as far that I'm aware of), the circuit abilities of the vehicle are unknown. GM has two directions they can go in order to outperform the GT500: Increase the LSA's output, or shed some weight. Both have their consequences; the LSA's increased output may reduce its already average MPG ratings and reduce aftermarket gains.*** Losing weight would result in a decent hike price that some may not want to pay.****

Now the question is, would you pay extra money for the pride of beating its competition?
Yes I would (I'm not sure if I can, but I'm going to do my best ). I spent upwards of $10K on top of my '02, in total, with experimentation and with parts and such. I know that I'm going to at least get an SS, so if we assume Z28, under your ideas, would start about where the GT500 does, then I think there are many little things GM can do to address your concerns.

It's, for me personally, a given GM will further tune Z28's suspension and chassis (I hope they continually refine LS/LT/SS) and think it would entirely be reasonable to expect some more exotic suspension parts, among other things. Some lightweight control arms and cradles are the first to come to mind. Hollow swaybars; maybe some thinner glass (i.e. older Z06s); aluminum driveshaft; light weight wheels/tires; maybe even some two-piece brakes. I don't really think that it wouldn't really be stretching it to ask that some of these things be implemented. I further think that the output of LSA can be boosted over CTS-V. I've read many reviews where the exhaust being too subdued was posted, and think that eliminating some resonators and higher-flowing (see GMPP AB) mufflers could easily be added. I'm pretty sure GM would further increase the size of the pipes over what SS already has too. Heck, if they felt really spirited, increase boost to what ZR1 runs and get up to 600 HP. I bet Z28 could easily get another 20-30 HP without even physically touching LSA.

I do believe Z28 should be affordable, however. I don't think it should be limited in numbers, arbitrarily, but I think it needs to directly compete with the GT500. Affordable is also relative. I think they should build what the market will support; look how many people we are seeing upgrading to Hennessey, Lingenfelter, and SLP, just to name a few. Also, I think that the market is there because of how popular GT500s and Terminators have been in the aftermarket and how easy it was to get monster power out of them with relatively simple bolt-ons. Z28 could easily do well here with the right formula, IMHO.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:24 AM   #9
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The forum has been discussing the Z28 a lot. It's as if we all expect to be driving one soon. Let's say GM releases a GT500-killer Z28. Are we as a community going to complain that the price will logically surpass the tag on the GT500? We already know the SS is more expensive than the GT. We know that the technology is superior, and the vehicle just looks that much better. It will happen again.

Are we as a community prepared for a top product that very few of us can afford? Will knowing that the best is unattainable taint your interest in the Camaro?

It might be time to wake up from the dream. The SS is a killer product, and we should be grateful for what we have. Asking for more and then not being able to reach it might be a whole can of worms we're not ready to open.
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Old 02-26-2010, 09:52 AM   #10
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The forum has been discussing the Z28 a lot. It's as if we all expect to be driving one soon. Let's say GM releases a GT500-killer Z28. Are we as a community going to complain that the price will logically surpass the tag on the GT500? We already know the SS is more expensive than the GT. We know that the technology is superior, and the vehicle just looks that much better. It will happen again.

Are we as a community prepared for a top product that very few of us can afford? Will knowing that the best is unattainable taint your interest in the Camaro?

It might be time to wake up from the dream. The SS is a killer product, and we should be grateful for what we have. Asking for more and then not being able to reach it might be a whole can of worms we're not ready to open.
I respectfully have to disagree... Enthusiasts who could afford and are willing to spend the money on this example should have to almost be punished just because others can pay for it. Again, I'm basing my statements off the though AND assumption the market would support it due to the way the GT500 is embraced.

Also, technologically, I think the cars are about neck-and-neck now, especially with the most recent '11 changes to the Mustang line-up. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about efficiency and simplicity, as long as it works, and our Gen IVs do the work without sweating, but they are relatively simple pushrod designs, compared to what's coming out from across Detroit. We have IRS, but the culmination of the tuned SRA across town is pretty much making that car at least the equal of the best of what we have at the moment. Ultimately, our IRS is probably a smidge better, under all conditions, but their car, as a whole, because of their tuning, is at least an equal; I can stand that, for the record

As far as pricing goes, I would hope the community would complain about any similar "premium" Z28 might have over the GT500. Look at what SS had over the GT; it wasn't too bad, and I think we got a better car. I can't see why GM couldn't do that again (there are areas I think GM is behind, but they aren't too relavent to me, personally). I think it would be a shame for our community, or Camaro Community as a whole to complain that there's a Camaro that is easily the equal to the best that the Blue Oval puts out. Why would we want to put a limit on a car that there are those that would pay money for; especially one, that if reports are correct, that is already so far under development?

I'm not remotely trying to sound like I'm not greatful that we have as great a cars as we do right now; not at all. I do get suprised by some of the comments members post regarding what seems like a resentment toward a car improving on what SS has already established. There's no doubt in my mind GM can make improvements that would be substaintial and relative to what our community would appreciate. They seem to be pretty in touch with the pulse of the people, and I think not supporting Z28 would be stifling; and honestly, very disappointing to me. There's almost an anger element, in most Z28 threads, where member(s) post something along the lines of we should be grateful that we even have Camaro back. Well, I know many are, and I think a perfect analogy would be that these sorts of posts are like suggesting the original colonists should've been happy to get out of England, but not have fought for independence and break from all the taxes and oppression that they were under. That's a little dramatic, yes, but that's about as dramatic as these comments makes me feel
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:34 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I respectfully have to disagree... Enthusiasts who could afford and are willing to spend the money on this example should have to almost be punished just because others can pay for it. Again, I'm basing my statements off the though AND assumption the market would support it due to the way the GT500 is embraced.

Also, technologically, I think the cars are about neck-and-neck now, especially with the most recent '11 changes to the Mustang line-up. Don't get me wrong, I'm all about efficiency and simplicity, as long as it works, and our Gen IVs do the work without sweating, but they are relatively simple pushrod designs, compared to what's coming out from across Detroit. We have IRS, but the culmination of the tuned SRA across town is pretty much making that car at least the equal of the best of what we have at the moment. Ultimately, our IRS is probably a smidge better, under all conditions, but their car, as a whole, because of their tuning, is at least an equal; I can stand that, for the record

As far as pricing goes, I would hope the community would complain about any similar "premium" Z28 might have over the GT500. Look at what SS had over the GT; it wasn't too bad, and I think we got a better car. I can't see why GM couldn't do that again (there are areas I think GM is behind, but they aren't too relavent to me, personally). I think it would be a shame for our community, or Camaro Community as a whole to complain that there's a Camaro that is easily the equal to the best that the Blue Oval puts out. Why would we want to put a limit on a car that there are those that would pay money for; especially one, that if reports are correct, that is already so far under development?

I'm not remotely trying to sound like I'm not greatful that we have as great a cars as we do right now; not at all. I do get suprised by some of the comments members post regarding what seems like a resentment toward a car improving on what SS has already established. There's no doubt in my mind GM can make improvements that would be substaintial and relative to what our community would appreciate. They seem to be pretty in touch with the pulse of the people, and I think not supporting Z28 would be stifling; and honestly, very disappointing to me. There's almost an anger element, in most Z28 threads, where member(s) post something along the lines of we should be grateful that we even have Camaro back. Well, I know many are, and I think a perfect analogy would be that these sorts of posts are like suggesting the original colonists should've been happy to get out of England, but not have fought for independence and break from all the taxes and oppression that they were under. That's a little dramatic, yes, but that's about as dramatic as these comments makes me feel
I think we're more on the same side than I came off. I'm suggesting that the Z28 discussion has led a lot of Camaro5 members to make a car with no released specs or pricing their target car and that any future Z28 will not fit the needs or budgets of most members. For those people, the SS is a phenomenal car.

For those whose budgets and consideration includes the GT500, a Z28 that competes and beats the GT500 is a sure sale, and it should be available to them. That being said, people who can't afford cars in the price range are posting all over the boards as if they are certain that this will be their next car.

I'm glad we have a Camaro SS. I'm hoping we have a Z28, and I'm hoping that people realize that a car of that caliber is going to cost more. I would not like to see any production or performance limitations on the Z28.

I hope that clarifies my position.
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:40 AM   #12
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I think we're more on the same side than I came off. I'm suggesting that the Z28 discussion has led a lot of Camaro5 members to make a car with no released specs or pricing their target car and that any future Z28 will not fit the needs or budgets of most members. For those people, the SS is a phenomenal car.

For those whose budgets and consideration includes the GT500, a Z28 that competes and beats the GT500 is a sure sale, and it should be available to them. That being said, people who can't afford cars in the price range are posting all over the boards as if they are certain that this will be their next car.

I'm glad we have a Camaro SS. I'm hoping we have a Z28, and I'm hoping that people realize that a car of that caliber is going to cost more. I would not like to see any production or performance limitations on the Z28.

I hope that clarifies my position.
I respectfully I, honestly, was hoping that was the case, and it seemed so out of character from what I recall reading from your posts in the past (and I haven't read but a fraction of them admittedly) so I'm on the same page now
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:48 AM   #13
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I respectfully I, honestly, was hoping that was the case, and it seemed so out of character from what I recall reading from your posts in the past (and I haven't read but a fraction of them admittedly) so I'm on the same page now
Get reading! I'm not posting for my health!
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:11 AM   #14
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Get reading! I'm not posting for my health!
Oh - I know
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Old 02-26-2010, 11:56 AM   #15
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This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:17 PM   #16
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This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?

Believe it or not the Z28 and GT500 were completely two different types of cars back in the late 60's. Never were competitive at the time. Now it is the case. Mustang had so many models at the time the GT, the Boss, the Mach 1, etc... Camaro had the RS, the SS, the Z28, etc... and Shelby had the GT500, the GT350, the Cobra (which was an off shoot model based on the Mustang platform nothing more).

It's interesting how things change. But car companies could never afford to have as many models out as they did at that time. And that was only dealing with Ford and Chevy, nevermind: Pontiac, Mercury, Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge which all did the same thing!
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:30 PM   #17
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This is an interesting topic. How has Chevy responded historically? Has the Z/28 always been designed in the past to exceed the GT500?
Traditionally, the SS and Z28 were both designed in the same performance range. The Z28 would have less displacement with similar power, less features, and a track-tuned suspension. The SS would have more street-oriented luxuries and demonstrate the newest technology.

The ZL1 was more of a supercar in contrast.

Now, GM doesn't have the same room in the lineup. Maybe we'll see a ZL1 Camaro someday, but for now, we have a Z28 to fill the GT500-fighter spot.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:48 PM   #18
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I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:50 PM   #19
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I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.
The SS isn't very far behind the GT500 in the quarter. With some more power and an upgraded suspension, there's no reason a Z28 would fall behind the GT500.
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Old 02-26-2010, 12:51 PM   #20
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Here, check this out:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2009-feature

check out the CTS-V lap times versus the GT500 and the BMW M3. It spanks both of them. Now is the Z/28 going to be lighter than the CTS-V? Yes. What it may not have is the electromagnetic suspension system but I imagine the Z/28 lap times to equal or better the CTS-V. Therefore Z/28 > GT500.
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:08 PM   #21
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I'm going to disagree regarding acceleration performance, even with having not seen any information, I know from past GT500 models (and this is in an improvement...) that the GT500 will eat SS's lunch. Around a road course, that margin is going to shrink significantly, but if the course favors power, I'm pretty sure the GT500 is going to be on top. I can't take anything away, nor would I, from SS, but it's just not the same class. A Track Pack GT even is AT LEAST SS's equal around a course. Now, I know it wouldn't take much to get SS on track, however, that needs to happen first.

I think Z28 should be able to improve on CTS-V because of weight, and because I don't really think, packaging-wise, Camaro really restricts the power potential of LSA. What I mean is, Cadillac wanted to keep the exhaust volume down (unlike the last car, from what I remember) so I believe there is a fair amount of restriction in, at least, the exhaust on CTS-V. If LSA were to come over to Z28, with not actually mechanical changes, I think it would make more power in Camaro - straight off (I think the little bit of more power would require a little tuning to the PCM, but that's the absolute limit to the changes to LSA that I'm thinking about). Having said all that, I'm fairly certain Z28 would weigh less, not to mention additional weight savings I think that it would benefit from over CTS-V. I know there's going to be a limit to how much they change in the chassis, but I really hope we'll see shock from ZR1/CTS-V on Z28. Even without significant weight savings, I believe it'd be a Hell-of-a Z28. Look how many supercars get close to 2-tons of weight; they still perform extremely well, and I don't think it's a stretch to expect Z28 to get comparitively close to a base 'Vette - not much more though...

Alpha is too far away, IMHO, for Z28 to be on; they're still going to use Zeta II, IMO.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:11 PM   #22
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I don't think the Z/28 will "beat" the GT500 unless they move it to the alpha platform. But do they have to? The SS has better handling than the GT500 and I imagine the Z/28 will have better handling than the GT500, so it may very well beat the GT500 on the lightning lap/Nurburgring. I think the LL/Nurburgring is a more important target than straight-line acceleration.

Last time I checked the 2010 GT handled better than the SS. Nevermind the GT500. But that doesn't mean the Z28 won't handle better. But lets not forget the 2011 GT500 just shaved off another 3-4 seconds, with the SVT Performance Package, around the track it was tested on in the Lightning Lap. We won't know until it comes out.
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:14 PM   #23
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Here, check this out:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p_2009-feature

check out the CTS-V lap times versus the GT500 and the BMW M3. It spanks both of them. Now is the Z/28 going to be lighter than the CTS-V? Yes. What it may not have is the electromagnetic suspension system but I imagine the Z/28 lap times to equal or better the CTS-V. Therefore Z/28 > GT500.
2011 GT500 with SVT Perf Pack anyone?
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Old 02-26-2010, 02:59 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by radz282003 View Post
I'm going to disagree regarding acceleration performance, even with having not seen any information, I know from past GT500 models (and this is in an improvement...) that the GT500 will eat SS's lunch. Around a road course, that margin is going to shrink significantly, but if the course favors power, I'm pretty sure the GT500 is going to be on top. I can't take anything away, nor would I, from SS, but it's just not the same class. A Track Pack GT even is AT LEAST SS's equal around a course. Now, I know it wouldn't take much to get SS on track, however, that needs to happen first.
first: no-one is comparing the SS with the GT500.

second: did you check the lightning lap results of the Stang GT? The times are no where near as good as the SS.
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Old 02-26-2010, 03:32 PM   #25
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first: no-one is comparing the SS with the GT500.

second: did you check the lightning lap results of the Stang GT? The times are no where near as good as the SS.
To start: Check your tone; there's no need to respond this way.

Next: Read the posts above

Finally: Several 'rag reviews are getting great times with the Stang and compliment it's handling more than SSs; at least at this time. It is constantly praised, much to my dismay...
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