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Camaro V6 LLT Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 09-16-2008, 12:20 AM   #1
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High Compression Ratio + Boost = Uh Oh

Even though the V6 is definitely no slouch, I have always told myself I have to get the SS. The past week in my engine principles class we have been going over forced induction. I've known a little bit about super and turbochargers but never really knew the potential of either of them. It has really gotten me interested in turbos.
I know we've talked about a turbocharging the V6 but I want to know more about the technical side of it.
If I remember right the compression ratio of the LLT 3.6 DI V6 is 11:1. That means a lot of pressure. So the first thing that comes to mind is the last thing I would want to do is add more boost risking blown engine parts. I know I could still boost the engine like it is, but at very low boost. I was wondering how I could turbo this engine as a safe daily driver if I wanted to? I dont know whats needed for boost, like what parts need to be stronger? And how could I lower the compression ratio? Dish pistons, larger cylinder head...?
Whats the potential? 400 whp? Safely
What do you think?
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:27 AM   #2
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Take into account Direct Injection, too. The engine compresses air-only for the most part of the compression cycle. Then the fuel cools the air charge as it enters the combustion chamber...Given that this thing pumps out 300+ hp on regular fuel at that CR -- there's definitely potential there.

Not that I'm any expert...but I expect this engine could take 'normal' (5-7psi) boost like other 'normal' engines without any significant risk. And at that level...tuned for premium, obviously, 400hp should be reachable.
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:28 AM   #3
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You would bith safe with 5, no more than 7 psi. Lowering the C/R takes alot more work than assembling parts compatible with it. Make sure the turbo/s are properly cooled and your not running high pressure on the stock rotating assembly and you will be fine. Some of the other guys can help you more with specifics.
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:44 AM   #4
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Ok If you get a turbo I highly recommend dish top pistons. Best pistons to use when installing forced induction. Also ProCharger systems offer really good intercoolers on low boost turbos. I don't know what they'll have fo the V6 Camaro but on average every system they have for other vehicles that offer 5-7 Pounds Per Square Inch(psi) guarantee a 35% hp gain! Which will take that 6 cylinder from 300 hp to about 405. Check out the website. Procharger.com
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:11 AM   #5
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Take into account Direct Injection, too. The engine compresses air-only for the most part of the compression cycle. Then the fuel cools the air charge as it enters the combustion chamber...Given that this thing pumps out 300+ hp on regular fuel at that CR -- there's definitely potential there.

Not that I'm any expert...but I expect this engine could take 'normal' (5-7psi) boost like other 'normal' engines without any significant risk. And at that level...tuned for premium, obviously, 400hp should be reachable.
We can't forget about potency either. I mean, the thing gained 31rwhp from an intake and exhaust. No headers or tune either. A first for the V6 Camaro.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:07 AM   #6
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Yeah this is something that I'm considering as well. I'll definitely be getting a Camaro LT w RS package, and while boosting would be something I'd consider down the road, I'd be happy just to get the Camaro up to at least 350-370hp...
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:21 AM   #7
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We can't forget about potency either. I mean, the thing gained 31rwhp from an intake and exhaust. No headers or tune either. A first for the V6 Camaro.
We went over this in another thread. There is no street proof of this. The 31 HP claim was from a manufacturer that just threw up a dyno chart of the intake that they are producing and selling.

There is no way any car will gain 31 hp from intake and exhaust with no change in tune. Unless there was a squirrel living in the tailpipe and then you removed it lol.

Believe me I know, I was/am in the tuning business. People claim rediculous HP increased on their own products to GET YOU TO BUY THEM. Look for real world 3rd party dyno results from mods they have done. Thats where the real figures are.

Back to topic at hand.....you also have to remember that kits to boost these cars are thousands of dollars and thousands to install. They will totally void all warrenties and more then likely by the time you are done it will have been more expensive then a new SS and still slower.

Depending on the size of the turbos and the bearings the V6 might not be able to spool them as quickly as an 8 would creating a bit of turbo lag too. I am in the subaru community and I am a V8 guy at heart. Lag stinks. Once going it is nice but down low it is a bummer. If they spool then you wouldn't have an issue.

My point is that you will have a more expensive V6 camaro that is probably slower then an SS with worse mileage now (boost kills MPG) and no warranty.

If you want to go fast buy the SS it is much more economical at that point. If you want a few ponies in the V6 get an intake, cat back and a tune. Anything else would be a waste of $.

You buy the V6 for economic reasons (mpg, insurance, low cost to maintain). You buy the V8 for ultimate performance.
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:50 PM   #8
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I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:16 PM   #9
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I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
Hopefully that holds true when they release the pricing of the SS...
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:19 PM   #10
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I have been running ProChargers on my street cars for years so that is my personal preference but not a reflection on other brands or types of FI systems. Being able to bolt on a FI system that has dramatic effect on performance and minimal impact on fuel economy makes it more desirable than ever. My G8 is still running factory AFM. At 55 MPH with five people and full of luggage it delivers 28.8 MPG. Including road courses, drag strips, auto crosses, highway and city driving my MPG is 18.2 with over 470 RWHP. When we are finished with the exhaust refinements at CORSA we expect to be in the 485 RWHP range and maybe as much as 490.

There is no reason the same % range of performance gains cannot be delivered with FI a 300 HP six cylinder.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:35 PM   #11
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We went over this in another thread. There is no street proof of this. The 31 HP claim was from a manufacturer that just threw up a dyno chart of the intake that they are producing and selling.

There is no way any car will gain 31 hp from intake and exhaust with no change in tune. Unless there was a squirrel living in the tailpipe and then you removed it lol.

Believe me I know, I was/am in the tuning business. People claim rediculous HP increased on their own products to GET YOU TO BUY THEM. Look for real world 3rd party dyno results from mods they have done. Thats where the real figures are.
The guy did a baseline dyno of 263rwhp, then added an intake and exhaust, and it made 294rwhp(supposedly). We all know 294-263=31, so I guess this guy made up fake dyno charts? If that's the case, then how come NOBODY has called the guy out? I want you to go over to the other forum and reply to that thread. What you're basically saying is the guy is false advertising. Here's the thread:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ains-over.html

Have at it. Also, I'm not saying you're wrong. 31hp from an intake and exhaust is a lot to claim, but not entirely impossible for every car. I'm not attacking you. I just want to know why, if this guy is posting fake dyno charts(if that's what they really are), nobody is saying anything.
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Old 09-16-2008, 04:24 PM   #12
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I have read the entire post. Notice that pages in they are still bumping their topic but have nothing to show for it and no parts that anyone can buy or test?

My best example is KN intakes. They claim "13 HP" just from bolting it on. Time and time again we tested just intakes on cars from subarus, to audis, to camaros, to supras. The intake alone got the car like +1 HP if not NEGATIVE HP. If you don't TUNE for it the car and MAF sensor have no idea what to do with the air and the computer can only trim so much AFM.

We tested the SPT (Subaru Performance Tuning) intake for the legacy GT. They calaimed like 10HP and put up a dyno chart and everything. No intake and then with intake. And sure enough there was a 10 hp peak change. Well we tested it 3rd party on a totally stock car like they did. It produced -3 HP across the range. You can make dyno charts do whatever you want. Click and drag. It is simply unrealistic to think that you will get 31 RWHP out of an air filter and a bigger exhaust pipe.

The other thing is....you don't get good reads on intakes on a dyno anyway b/c there is no air rushing in. Yes you have fans but it isn't the same EVER. So unless they Street tuned for that intake then redyno'd it would never really produce much on the graph.

My point is they never claim that they have or haven't tuned that car in that thread, and no one ever asked as far as I read. So if they TUNED the car for 93 oct with those mods maybe I would believe it. But since they are the manufacturer and they are selling the product, that post is nothing more then a big ad for them and most people in the aftermarket are suckers for dyno charts. And companies know it.

Also they didn't even touch the headers, it is a cat back system. That is simply a Y pipe and mufflers. If they did manifolds back that is another story but just a cat back won't get you much in gains especially on a V6.
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Old 09-16-2008, 04:34 PM   #13
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I have been running ProChargers on my street cars for years so that is my personal preference but not a reflection on other brands or types of FI systems. Being able to bolt on a FI system that has dramatic effect on performance and minimal impact on fuel economy makes it more desirable than ever. My G8 is still running factory AFM. At 55 MPH with five people and full of luggage it delivers 28.8 MPG. Including road courses, drag strips, auto crosses, highway and city driving my MPG is 18.2 with over 470 RWHP. When we are finished with the exhaust refinements at CORSA we expect to be in the 485 RWHP range and maybe as much as 490.

There is no reason the same % range of performance gains cannot be delivered with FI a 300 HP six cylinder.

I may have lost you along the way in your post. But are you trying to say that you think you will get the same power out of a FI 3.6 V6 as a FI 6.2 V8?

I would love to see that. When you say % gains i am hoping you mean like if the V6 can go from 270 WHP to 350 WHP that is 30% WHP improvement. Then the V8 would also get about 30% which would take it from 390 WHP to 507 WHP.

Yes that is the same % gain but it means a LOT more HP for the V8 which weighs only like 100 lbs more then the V6. So my point is that even if a boosted tuned V6 can gain 80 RWHP with a supercharger or turbo setup, it would still only give it like 80 RWHP bringing it about 30-40 HP short of a stock SS.

Im not saying you can't do amazing things with a V6 and probably THIS v6 but it simply isn't worth putting 8 grand into the V6 to come up 30 RWHP short of an SS when you could have had the SS for maybe 6 grand over the V6
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Old 09-16-2008, 04:40 PM   #14
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I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
No the wastegate is to control the boost pressure. The reason a turbo car should get you decent mileage when OFF the gas is the low compression the engine has.

For example, subarus come with around an 8.5:1 compression then they turbo it. This V6 will be I think 11:1 or 11.5:1 i forget exactly which. Now when you are in vacuum in the subaru you are more or less driving a 4 cyl low compression car which would get terrific mileage but have like no power at all. Once in positive boost though all that changes and it eats up fuel like you wouldn't believe.

One time I blew off my boost tube from the intercooler to the intake manifold and it was leaking like CRAZY. I had like no power but I got the most amazing gas mileage I have ever seen hahaha.

Since the turbos are so small on the subaru it spools very quickly and it is very hard to stay out of boost. The legacy with a drag coef of .28 (same as a vette coupe) will only get you about 26mpg on the highway for a 4 cyl. It is all b/c of the turbo. It eats too much gas even if you are very light on the pedal.
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:07 PM   #15
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just a question do you need a mechanic to install a turbo

or could you just put in a turbo yourself?

is there anything else you need to do other than installing a turbo,
Maintenance?
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Old 09-16-2008, 09:58 PM   #16
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oh yeah it is not that simple at all. You would need to pipe from the exhaust manifolds to the hot side of the turbo (to spin it) and put it in the air intake line to boost the incoming air, then pass it through an intercooler, and then into the intake manifold. So uppipes downpipes intercoolers etc.

For a not originally turbo'd car it is a LOT of work. Simply swapping a turbo for a larger turbo isn't too bad, mostly just oil lines, water lines, bolts, wastegate etc. But a whole kit is hours and hours of work and you would want an experienced professional to install it. Boosting a car is like putting a gernade in your engine and if not done right, boom!
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:33 PM   #17
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thanks but i have a few more questions

are super charger fuel efficient as turbos?

are they reliable

supercharger maintenance?

thanks
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #18
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thanks but i have a few more questions

are super charger fuel efficient as turbos?

are they reliable

supercharger maintenance?

thanks


Typically turbochargers are way more fuel efficient then superchargers. It also depends on which type of supercharger you are comparing too. Centrifugal? Roots-type?

Superchargers take power to make power. Turbochargers don't.

Now Eaton's new TVS supercharger is actually very advanced and is both powerful and fuel efficient. I know with my SS/SC alot of owners are converting from the traditional M62 roots type S/C to the new TVS S/C.

I think the LSA actually has a TVS S/C, but don't quote me on that.

And Audi is switching from their traditional bi-turbo setup, or single turbo on their next RS4, RS6 in favor of the TVS S/C.

Superchargers can just be as reliable as turbos. I haven't owned a turbo engine myself, although I plan to. From what I know S/C's tend to be a little less complicated.

As far as maintenance goes, that I can't tell you either seeing as I have not owned both, but with S/C cars the superchargers of course have their own lubricant in them (oil) that needs to be replaced maybe every 50k miles or 100k miles depending in the supercharger, engine, etc.

I'd say turbos are better for smaller displaced engines such as 4cyl's and 6cyl's... but for the V8, like the LS3, a supercharger would be more beneficial, but it depends. Really it comes down to personal preference.

Although I do imagine for the V6 Camaro, just slapping on a Procharger, or Vortech may get you the best bang for your buck... We'll have to wait and see.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:00 AM   #19
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The other thing to remember is that superchargers are linear power while turbos have a curved powerband.

What I mean by this is......a supercharger is driven off of the belt system turned by the crank. As the RPMs increase it spins the supercharger and builds the boost in a linear fashion. A turbo may have little to no effect on a car at say 1500 RPM even up to 3000-4000 RPM. Until you can get the turbine to spin fast enough from the hot exhaust gases it will not compress the air on the cold side enough to really give you a boosting effect. But once a turbo is spooled to lik 20,000-35,0000 RPM it will kick in and give crazy power.

So the effieiency of a turbo helps fuel economy when you are at low RPM since you aren't using higher air/fuel charts to compensate for all that boost. With a supercharger you have no choice, the RPM determines the boost and you really can't "get out of it"

I would say that superchargers are easier to bolt on and there may be less to maintain. But they will not make as much peak HP and TQ potential as a turbo setup can. So there are pros and cons to both. Superchargers can add a big whiny sound too (think 2003-4 Cobras) where a turbo will add a spool whistling sound (if that makes sense - listen next time you pass a mack truck they are all turbos)

Usually superchargers are much cheaper then turbos as well. The APS TT kit for the corvette is one of the most potent systems out there. It will make like 650-700 RWHP at peak but it is like 9k for the kit and then you need to install it too. Maggie chargers for the vette run like 6500-7500 and then install. But they will produce in the 500-600 rwd hp range depending on other mods and if you intercoor and meth inject it.

My advice is to learn and research research research. If you don't know what you are getting into then you probably shouldn't be boosting a car just yet. There isa wealth ok knowledge out there and all drivers like something different. Read up and see what you think would suit you and then see if you can test drive something with that setup
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:15 AM   #20
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I recommend you don't go over 5psi and get a good quality intercooler, like pay 3K or more for one
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:49 AM   #21
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In response to the original poster, I would say that 5 psi is a good number. Before installing a turbo, I strongly encourage you to upgrade pistons and beams to ones that are stronger than your needs. It's worth avoiding the risk of accidentally blowing up your car.

In response to subsequent post, I strongly encourage everyone, including myself, to heavily research forced induction of all types before making any decisions. We all know that power is dangerous for control reasons. Sometimes power is dangerous for budget reasons because it costs more to build, maintain, and keep for a long time. Before installing anything that may change the future of your car, make sure that it is street legal depending on your goals, affordable, done properly (get help if necessary), and, most importantly, safe.

You don't want to lose your car. Everyone on this site has a sacred bond to their machines.

You don't want to lose your life. It's just not worth it.
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Old 09-17-2008, 04:49 PM   #22
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In response to the original poster, I would say that 5 psi is a good number. Before installing a turbo, I strongly encourage you to upgrade pistons and beams to ones that are stronger than your needs. It's worth avoiding the risk of accidentally blowing up your car.

In response to subsequent post, I strongly encourage everyone, including myself, to heavily research forced induction of all types before making any decisions. We all know that power is dangerous for control reasons. Sometimes power is dangerous for budget reasons because it costs more to build, maintain, and keep for a long time. Before installing anything that may change the future of your car, make sure that it is street legal depending on your goals, affordable, done properly (get help if necessary), and, most importantly, safe.

You don't want to lose your car. Everyone on this site has a sacred bond to their machines.

You don't want to lose your life. It's just not worth it.
Smartest thing I've read today!
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:17 PM   #23
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Detonation is caused not by the pressure of compression, but by the heat generated by that heat. This is important because there are a lot of ways to mitigate that heat and the LTT uses several of them to good effect. Since the GM says to use regular unleaded, you should be able to add a fair amount of boost if you are willing to buy premium fuel. I bet you could do 10 psi all day, but I am happy to wait and see how it works out for a few people before I try.

Those of you who say that a turbo only works at high revs need to look at the modern DI turbo engines, it’s not your dads turbo. GM’s LNF and the twin turbo 6 in BMW’s 335 and 135 make their max torque by 2k and hold it past 5k.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:50 PM   #24
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Detonation is caused not by the pressure of compression, but by the heat generated by that heat. This is important because there are a lot of ways to mitigate that heat and the LTT uses several of them to good effect. Since the GM says to use regular unleaded, you should be able to add a fair amount of boost if you are willing to buy premium fuel. I bet you could do 10 psi all day, but I am happy to wait and see how it works out for a few people before I try.

Those of you who say that a turbo only works at high revs need to look at the modern DI turbo engines, it’s not your dads turbo. GM’s LNF and the twin turbo 6 in BMW’s 335 and 135 make their max torque by 2k and hold it past 5k.
I'm going to wait as well, and see if any kits make their way out too.

Yeah, the turbo in the LNF 2.0L DI, VVT, 4cyl uses a twin scroll turbocharger, and it's also a smaller turbo which spools up much quicker, completely diminishing the effects of turbo lag...

I'm predicting that if they offer both a turbo kit, and a supercharger kit eventually for the V6 Camaro, that the S/C kit will probably cost around 1k less (at least) than a turbo, usually because of a few less parts with the S/C kits. But on an average this is usually what I've seen for most other vehicles...

I'm sure if Procharger made a kit, I'm also going to predict that we could see a kit going for like $2900-$3500, and probably a turbo kit depending on what kind (or stage) maybe in the 3-4k range...

Which as far as cost-effectiveness goes, you're probably better off just getting a SS, IF a turbo kit + labor if you get it professionally installed could cost you total what a SS would be, but if there are any affordable supercharger kits that become available 6 months to a year after the Camaro comes out and if I get one I'll probably look into it, just from owning a supercharged car...

Although I like turbos more...
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:06 PM   #25
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This may be true that the 335 has little to no spool and makes max tq at 2000 but holding to 5500 means it is dead up top. That is the problem with turbos you cannot get big power through the entire range its either small turbos for fast spool and quick takeoff or large single turbos for max kick but major bog down low.


Don't forget that these cars are created and designed from the factory with turbo setups making them much more resonsive and adaptive. You will not get the same effect when throwing a turbo on the v6 camaro as a stock 335 its just totally different.
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