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Old 09-15-2008, 11:20 PM   #1
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High Compression Ratio + Boost = Uh Oh

Even though the V6 is definitely no slouch, I have always told myself I have to get the SS. The past week in my engine principles class we have been going over forced induction. I've known a little bit about super and turbochargers but never really knew the potential of either of them. It has really gotten me interested in turbos.
I know we've talked about a turbocharging the V6 but I want to know more about the technical side of it.
If I remember right the compression ratio of the LLT 3.6 DI V6 is 11:1. That means a lot of pressure. So the first thing that comes to mind is the last thing I would want to do is add more boost risking blown engine parts. I know I could still boost the engine like it is, but at very low boost. I was wondering how I could turbo this engine as a safe daily driver if I wanted to? I dont know whats needed for boost, like what parts need to be stronger? And how could I lower the compression ratio? Dish pistons, larger cylinder head...?
Whats the potential? 400 whp? Safely
What do you think?
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:27 PM   #2
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Take into account Direct Injection, too. The engine compresses air-only for the most part of the compression cycle. Then the fuel cools the air charge as it enters the combustion chamber...Given that this thing pumps out 300+ hp on regular fuel at that CR -- there's definitely potential there.

Not that I'm any expert...but I expect this engine could take 'normal' (5-7psi) boost like other 'normal' engines without any significant risk. And at that level...tuned for premium, obviously, 400hp should be reachable.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:28 PM   #3
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You would bith safe with 5, no more than 7 psi. Lowering the C/R takes alot more work than assembling parts compatible with it. Make sure the turbo/s are properly cooled and your not running high pressure on the stock rotating assembly and you will be fine. Some of the other guys can help you more with specifics.
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Old 09-15-2008, 11:44 PM   #4
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Ok If you get a turbo I highly recommend dish top pistons. Best pistons to use when installing forced induction. Also ProCharger systems offer really good intercoolers on low boost turbos. I don't know what they'll have fo the V6 Camaro but on average every system they have for other vehicles that offer 5-7 Pounds Per Square Inch(psi) guarantee a 35% hp gain! Which will take that 6 cylinder from 300 hp to about 405. Check out the website. Procharger.com
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:11 AM   #5
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Take into account Direct Injection, too. The engine compresses air-only for the most part of the compression cycle. Then the fuel cools the air charge as it enters the combustion chamber...Given that this thing pumps out 300+ hp on regular fuel at that CR -- there's definitely potential there.

Not that I'm any expert...but I expect this engine could take 'normal' (5-7psi) boost like other 'normal' engines without any significant risk. And at that level...tuned for premium, obviously, 400hp should be reachable.
We can't forget about potency either. I mean, the thing gained 31rwhp from an intake and exhaust. No headers or tune either. A first for the V6 Camaro.
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:07 AM   #6
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Yeah this is something that I'm considering as well. I'll definitely be getting a Camaro LT w RS package, and while boosting would be something I'd consider down the road, I'd be happy just to get the Camaro up to at least 350-370hp...
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Old 09-16-2008, 10:21 AM   #7
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We can't forget about potency either. I mean, the thing gained 31rwhp from an intake and exhaust. No headers or tune either. A first for the V6 Camaro.
We went over this in another thread. There is no street proof of this. The 31 HP claim was from a manufacturer that just threw up a dyno chart of the intake that they are producing and selling.

There is no way any car will gain 31 hp from intake and exhaust with no change in tune. Unless there was a squirrel living in the tailpipe and then you removed it lol.

Believe me I know, I was/am in the tuning business. People claim rediculous HP increased on their own products to GET YOU TO BUY THEM. Look for real world 3rd party dyno results from mods they have done. Thats where the real figures are.

Back to topic at hand.....you also have to remember that kits to boost these cars are thousands of dollars and thousands to install. They will totally void all warrenties and more then likely by the time you are done it will have been more expensive then a new SS and still slower.

Depending on the size of the turbos and the bearings the V6 might not be able to spool them as quickly as an 8 would creating a bit of turbo lag too. I am in the subaru community and I am a V8 guy at heart. Lag stinks. Once going it is nice but down low it is a bummer. If they spool then you wouldn't have an issue.

My point is that you will have a more expensive V6 camaro that is probably slower then an SS with worse mileage now (boost kills MPG) and no warranty.

If you want to go fast buy the SS it is much more economical at that point. If you want a few ponies in the V6 get an intake, cat back and a tune. Anything else would be a waste of $.

You buy the V6 for economic reasons (mpg, insurance, low cost to maintain). You buy the V8 for ultimate performance.
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:50 PM   #8
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I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:16 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by AirGoya View Post
I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
Hopefully that holds true when they release the pricing of the SS...
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:19 PM   #10
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I have been running ProChargers on my street cars for years so that is my personal preference but not a reflection on other brands or types of FI systems. Being able to bolt on a FI system that has dramatic effect on performance and minimal impact on fuel economy makes it more desirable than ever. My G8 is still running factory AFM. At 55 MPH with five people and full of luggage it delivers 28.8 MPG. Including road courses, drag strips, auto crosses, highway and city driving my MPG is 18.2 with over 470 RWHP. When we are finished with the exhaust refinements at CORSA we expect to be in the 485 RWHP range and maybe as much as 490.

There is no reason the same % range of performance gains cannot be delivered with FI a 300 HP six cylinder.
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:35 PM   #11
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We went over this in another thread. There is no street proof of this. The 31 HP claim was from a manufacturer that just threw up a dyno chart of the intake that they are producing and selling.

There is no way any car will gain 31 hp from intake and exhaust with no change in tune. Unless there was a squirrel living in the tailpipe and then you removed it lol.

Believe me I know, I was/am in the tuning business. People claim rediculous HP increased on their own products to GET YOU TO BUY THEM. Look for real world 3rd party dyno results from mods they have done. Thats where the real figures are.
The guy did a baseline dyno of 263rwhp, then added an intake and exhaust, and it made 294rwhp(supposedly). We all know 294-263=31, so I guess this guy made up fake dyno charts? If that's the case, then how come NOBODY has called the guy out? I want you to go over to the other forum and reply to that thread. What you're basically saying is the guy is false advertising. Here's the thread:

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ains-over.html

Have at it. Also, I'm not saying you're wrong. 31hp from an intake and exhaust is a lot to claim, but not entirely impossible for every car. I'm not attacking you. I just want to know why, if this guy is posting fake dyno charts(if that's what they really are), nobody is saying anything.
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:24 PM   #12
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I have read the entire post. Notice that pages in they are still bumping their topic but have nothing to show for it and no parts that anyone can buy or test?

My best example is KN intakes. They claim "13 HP" just from bolting it on. Time and time again we tested just intakes on cars from subarus, to audis, to camaros, to supras. The intake alone got the car like +1 HP if not NEGATIVE HP. If you don't TUNE for it the car and MAF sensor have no idea what to do with the air and the computer can only trim so much AFM.

We tested the SPT (Subaru Performance Tuning) intake for the legacy GT. They calaimed like 10HP and put up a dyno chart and everything. No intake and then with intake. And sure enough there was a 10 hp peak change. Well we tested it 3rd party on a totally stock car like they did. It produced -3 HP across the range. You can make dyno charts do whatever you want. Click and drag. It is simply unrealistic to think that you will get 31 RWHP out of an air filter and a bigger exhaust pipe.

The other thing is....you don't get good reads on intakes on a dyno anyway b/c there is no air rushing in. Yes you have fans but it isn't the same EVER. So unless they Street tuned for that intake then redyno'd it would never really produce much on the graph.

My point is they never claim that they have or haven't tuned that car in that thread, and no one ever asked as far as I read. So if they TUNED the car for 93 oct with those mods maybe I would believe it. But since they are the manufacturer and they are selling the product, that post is nothing more then a big ad for them and most people in the aftermarket are suckers for dyno charts. And companies know it.

Also they didn't even touch the headers, it is a cat back system. That is simply a Y pipe and mufflers. If they did manifolds back that is another story but just a cat back won't get you much in gains especially on a V6.
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:34 PM   #13
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I have been running ProChargers on my street cars for years so that is my personal preference but not a reflection on other brands or types of FI systems. Being able to bolt on a FI system that has dramatic effect on performance and minimal impact on fuel economy makes it more desirable than ever. My G8 is still running factory AFM. At 55 MPH with five people and full of luggage it delivers 28.8 MPG. Including road courses, drag strips, auto crosses, highway and city driving my MPG is 18.2 with over 470 RWHP. When we are finished with the exhaust refinements at CORSA we expect to be in the 485 RWHP range and maybe as much as 490.

There is no reason the same % range of performance gains cannot be delivered with FI a 300 HP six cylinder.

I may have lost you along the way in your post. But are you trying to say that you think you will get the same power out of a FI 3.6 V6 as a FI 6.2 V8?

I would love to see that. When you say % gains i am hoping you mean like if the V6 can go from 270 WHP to 350 WHP that is 30% WHP improvement. Then the V8 would also get about 30% which would take it from 390 WHP to 507 WHP.

Yes that is the same % gain but it means a LOT more HP for the V8 which weighs only like 100 lbs more then the V6. So my point is that even if a boosted tuned V6 can gain 80 RWHP with a supercharger or turbo setup, it would still only give it like 80 RWHP bringing it about 30-40 HP short of a stock SS.

Im not saying you can't do amazing things with a V6 and probably THIS v6 but it simply isn't worth putting 8 grand into the V6 to come up 30 RWHP short of an SS when you could have had the SS for maybe 6 grand over the V6
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Old 09-16-2008, 03:40 PM   #14
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I thought that a turbo could improve or keep the same fuel economy if you dont push it because of the wastegate.
This was just an idea. I'm pretty sure i'm goin with the SS. Everything is so much easier and its a steal for what your getting.
No the wastegate is to control the boost pressure. The reason a turbo car should get you decent mileage when OFF the gas is the low compression the engine has.

For example, subarus come with around an 8.5:1 compression then they turbo it. This V6 will be I think 11:1 or 11.5:1 i forget exactly which. Now when you are in vacuum in the subaru you are more or less driving a 4 cyl low compression car which would get terrific mileage but have like no power at all. Once in positive boost though all that changes and it eats up fuel like you wouldn't believe.

One time I blew off my boost tube from the intercooler to the intake manifold and it was leaking like CRAZY. I had like no power but I got the most amazing gas mileage I have ever seen hahaha.

Since the turbos are so small on the subaru it spools very quickly and it is very hard to stay out of boost. The legacy with a drag coef of .28 (same as a vette coupe) will only get you about 26mpg on the highway for a 4 cyl. It is all b/c of the turbo. It eats too much gas even if you are very light on the pedal.
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