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Old 09-17-2008, 10:29 AM   #18
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thanks but i have a few more questions

are super charger fuel efficient as turbos?

are they reliable

supercharger maintenance?

thanks


Typically turbochargers are way more fuel efficient then superchargers. It also depends on which type of supercharger you are comparing too. Centrifugal? Roots-type?

Superchargers take power to make power. Turbochargers don't.

Now Eaton's new TVS supercharger is actually very advanced and is both powerful and fuel efficient. I know with my SS/SC alot of owners are converting from the traditional M62 roots type S/C to the new TVS S/C.

I think the LSA actually has a TVS S/C, but don't quote me on that.

And Audi is switching from their traditional bi-turbo setup, or single turbo on their next RS4, RS6 in favor of the TVS S/C.

Superchargers can just be as reliable as turbos. I haven't owned a turbo engine myself, although I plan to. From what I know S/C's tend to be a little less complicated.

As far as maintenance goes, that I can't tell you either seeing as I have not owned both, but with S/C cars the superchargers of course have their own lubricant in them (oil) that needs to be replaced maybe every 50k miles or 100k miles depending in the supercharger, engine, etc.

I'd say turbos are better for smaller displaced engines such as 4cyl's and 6cyl's... but for the V8, like the LS3, a supercharger would be more beneficial, but it depends. Really it comes down to personal preference.

Although I do imagine for the V6 Camaro, just slapping on a Procharger, or Vortech may get you the best bang for your buck... We'll have to wait and see.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:00 AM   #19
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The other thing to remember is that superchargers are linear power while turbos have a curved powerband.

What I mean by this is......a supercharger is driven off of the belt system turned by the crank. As the RPMs increase it spins the supercharger and builds the boost in a linear fashion. A turbo may have little to no effect on a car at say 1500 RPM even up to 3000-4000 RPM. Until you can get the turbine to spin fast enough from the hot exhaust gases it will not compress the air on the cold side enough to really give you a boosting effect. But once a turbo is spooled to lik 20,000-35,0000 RPM it will kick in and give crazy power.

So the effieiency of a turbo helps fuel economy when you are at low RPM since you aren't using higher air/fuel charts to compensate for all that boost. With a supercharger you have no choice, the RPM determines the boost and you really can't "get out of it"

I would say that superchargers are easier to bolt on and there may be less to maintain. But they will not make as much peak HP and TQ potential as a turbo setup can. So there are pros and cons to both. Superchargers can add a big whiny sound too (think 2003-4 Cobras) where a turbo will add a spool whistling sound (if that makes sense - listen next time you pass a mack truck they are all turbos)

Usually superchargers are much cheaper then turbos as well. The APS TT kit for the corvette is one of the most potent systems out there. It will make like 650-700 RWHP at peak but it is like 9k for the kit and then you need to install it too. Maggie chargers for the vette run like 6500-7500 and then install. But they will produce in the 500-600 rwd hp range depending on other mods and if you intercoor and meth inject it.

My advice is to learn and research research research. If you don't know what you are getting into then you probably shouldn't be boosting a car just yet. There isa wealth ok knowledge out there and all drivers like something different. Read up and see what you think would suit you and then see if you can test drive something with that setup
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:15 AM   #20
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I recommend you don't go over 5psi and get a good quality intercooler, like pay 3K or more for one
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:49 AM   #21
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In response to the original poster, I would say that 5 psi is a good number. Before installing a turbo, I strongly encourage you to upgrade pistons and beams to ones that are stronger than your needs. It's worth avoiding the risk of accidentally blowing up your car.

In response to subsequent post, I strongly encourage everyone, including myself, to heavily research forced induction of all types before making any decisions. We all know that power is dangerous for control reasons. Sometimes power is dangerous for budget reasons because it costs more to build, maintain, and keep for a long time. Before installing anything that may change the future of your car, make sure that it is street legal depending on your goals, affordable, done properly (get help if necessary), and, most importantly, safe.

You don't want to lose your car. Everyone on this site has a sacred bond to their machines.

You don't want to lose your life. It's just not worth it.
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Old 09-17-2008, 04:49 PM   #22
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In response to the original poster, I would say that 5 psi is a good number. Before installing a turbo, I strongly encourage you to upgrade pistons and beams to ones that are stronger than your needs. It's worth avoiding the risk of accidentally blowing up your car.

In response to subsequent post, I strongly encourage everyone, including myself, to heavily research forced induction of all types before making any decisions. We all know that power is dangerous for control reasons. Sometimes power is dangerous for budget reasons because it costs more to build, maintain, and keep for a long time. Before installing anything that may change the future of your car, make sure that it is street legal depending on your goals, affordable, done properly (get help if necessary), and, most importantly, safe.

You don't want to lose your car. Everyone on this site has a sacred bond to their machines.

You don't want to lose your life. It's just not worth it.
Smartest thing I've read today!
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:17 PM   #23
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Detonation is caused not by the pressure of compression, but by the heat generated by that heat. This is important because there are a lot of ways to mitigate that heat and the LTT uses several of them to good effect. Since the GM says to use regular unleaded, you should be able to add a fair amount of boost if you are willing to buy premium fuel. I bet you could do 10 psi all day, but I am happy to wait and see how it works out for a few people before I try.

Those of you who say that a turbo only works at high revs need to look at the modern DI turbo engines, it’s not your dads turbo. GM’s LNF and the twin turbo 6 in BMW’s 335 and 135 make their max torque by 2k and hold it past 5k.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:50 PM   #24
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Detonation is caused not by the pressure of compression, but by the heat generated by that heat. This is important because there are a lot of ways to mitigate that heat and the LTT uses several of them to good effect. Since the GM says to use regular unleaded, you should be able to add a fair amount of boost if you are willing to buy premium fuel. I bet you could do 10 psi all day, but I am happy to wait and see how it works out for a few people before I try.

Those of you who say that a turbo only works at high revs need to look at the modern DI turbo engines, it’s not your dads turbo. GM’s LNF and the twin turbo 6 in BMW’s 335 and 135 make their max torque by 2k and hold it past 5k.
I'm going to wait as well, and see if any kits make their way out too.

Yeah, the turbo in the LNF 2.0L DI, VVT, 4cyl uses a twin scroll turbocharger, and it's also a smaller turbo which spools up much quicker, completely diminishing the effects of turbo lag...

I'm predicting that if they offer both a turbo kit, and a supercharger kit eventually for the V6 Camaro, that the S/C kit will probably cost around 1k less (at least) than a turbo, usually because of a few less parts with the S/C kits. But on an average this is usually what I've seen for most other vehicles...

I'm sure if Procharger made a kit, I'm also going to predict that we could see a kit going for like $2900-$3500, and probably a turbo kit depending on what kind (or stage) maybe in the 3-4k range...

Which as far as cost-effectiveness goes, you're probably better off just getting a SS, IF a turbo kit + labor if you get it professionally installed could cost you total what a SS would be, but if there are any affordable supercharger kits that become available 6 months to a year after the Camaro comes out and if I get one I'll probably look into it, just from owning a supercharged car...

Although I like turbos more...
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:06 PM   #25
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This may be true that the 335 has little to no spool and makes max tq at 2000 but holding to 5500 means it is dead up top. That is the problem with turbos you cannot get big power through the entire range its either small turbos for fast spool and quick takeoff or large single turbos for max kick but major bog down low.


Don't forget that these cars are created and designed from the factory with turbo setups making them much more resonsive and adaptive. You will not get the same effect when throwing a turbo on the v6 camaro as a stock 335 its just totally different.
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Old 09-18-2008, 10:42 AM   #26
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Correct, that is the downside with the smaller turbos... They spool up quicker, but they suck on the top end.

Yeah, IDK... Until someone successfully, and safely throws a turbo on the V6 then I'm just going to wait, but I'm not holding my breath...

However I do think a roots=type supercharger may in fact be a little more suited for the
V6 Camaro... Just gotta wait and see.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:47 AM   #27
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Again this may be a decent option for the V6 but I just don't get the logic on why people would even consider this route?

It will cost you more to put on a turbo or blower on the V6 and lose your warrenty then it would to just buy the SS with a full coverage. On top of which the SS will still be putting more power to the wheels stock then the V6 with FI.

Stock LS3 vettes have put down as much as 400 whp. Most are in the 390-400 range. So lets just say that the camaro will but down about 385 stock. The V6 will put down at best 270 probably more like 260. There isn't much of a chance for that V6 with FI to safely get to 385 whp and if it does it would be at its limit.

that would be a 125 HP increase or 48% which i dont see happening.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:54 AM   #28
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Again this may be a decent option for the V6 but I just don't get the logic on why people would even consider this route?

It will cost you more to put on a turbo or blower on the V6 and lose your warrenty then it would to just buy the SS with a full coverage. On top of which the SS will still be putting more power to the wheels stock then the V6 with FI.

Stock LS3 vettes have put down as much as 400 whp. Most are in the 390-400 range. So lets just say that the camaro will but down about 385 stock. The V6 will put down at best 270 probably more like 260. There isn't much of a chance for that V6 with FI to safely get to 385 whp and if it does it would be at its limit.

that would be a 125 HP increase or 48% which i dont see happening.
The V6 is a competitor in another class. Plus, the LLT motor will get better fuel efficiency and cost less to insure. It won't be hard to get another 100 horses out of the V6, so it can perform as well as a stock V8 if the parts and tuning are done properly.

The V6 can get over 400 hp if it is built properly. Just like a V8 build, it will need internals to be reworked to maximize performance and reliability. Putting that money into a V6 Camaro would be no different than a 350Z owner tuning it. They're even in the same class.

You could spend the same money on a V8, but you won't have the tuning budget to match. Depending on the driver, tuning past 400 horses may be more important than buying 400 horses and adding a couple of mods.

If I were a V6 or V8 owner, I'd be worried about meeting any future Camaro at the track. They can be built to be very powerful with less weight than a Camaro SS.
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Old 09-18-2008, 11:59 AM   #29
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Again this may be a decent option for the V6 but I just don't get the logic on why people would even consider this route?

It will cost you more to put on a turbo or blower on the V6 and lose your warrenty then it would to just buy the SS with a full coverage. On top of which the SS will still be putting more power to the wheels stock then the V6 with FI.

Stock LS3 vettes have put down as much as 400 whp. Most are in the 390-400 range. So lets just say that the camaro will but down about 385 stock. The V6 will put down at best 270 probably more like 260. There isn't much of a chance for that V6 with FI to safely get to 385 whp and if it does it would be at its limit.

that would be a 125 HP increase or 48% which i dont see happening.
I'm definitely not buying a V6 just to go and waste a lot of time and money to convert to F.I., after putting in all that $ to get the power of an SS where just getting an SS would have been clearly the logical route, no no...

But... If down the road let's say Procharge, or Vortech or whoever came out with a S/C kit that cost like 3k and gives 100-125hp. Then I could possibly see doing it...

The Blur also makes a good point. There's a lot of 350Z owners that spend 6-8k on turbo and twin turbo kits and get 400WHP, and 500hp. Something that's not for me, but may be for others...
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:07 PM   #30
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The V6 is a competitor in another class. Plus, the LLT motor will get better fuel efficiency and cost less to insure. It won't be hard to get another 100 horses out of the V6, so it can perform as well as a stock V8 if the parts and tuning are done properly.

The V6 can get over 400 hp if it is built properly. Just like a V8 build, it will need internals to be reworked to maximize performance and reliability. Putting that money into a V6 Camaro would be no different than a 350Z owner tuning it. They're even in the same class.

You could spend the same money on a V8, but you won't have the tuning budget to match. Depending on the driver, tuning past 400 horses may be more important than buying 400 horses and adding a couple of mods.

If I were a V6 or V8 owner, I'd be worried about meeting any future Camaro at the track. They can be built to be very powerful with less weight than a Camaro SS.

To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.

For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.

The 330 BMW. Not worth spending all kinds of $ on Dinan mods when you could just buy the 335i which will run circles around a tuned 330.

Etc. There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.

So in my eyes I just don't get why there are so many people on here planning on buying the V6 camaro and modding it out to try to be this beast of a car when the SS is right there for probably less money, 100% warrentied, and minimal difference in insurance.

An intake or a cat back to make it "your own" sure I can agree with that. But putting THOUSANDS into the V6 is just silly when the SS is staring at you.

It will take a lot of mods and power to get the V6 6.1 0-60 to the project 4.4-4.5 0-60 of the SS ......... 1.6 seconds off a 0-60 is a TON of power needed
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:56 PM   #31
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To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.

For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.

The 330 BMW. Not worth spending all kinds of $ on Dinan mods when you could just buy the 335i which will run circles around a tuned 330.

Etc. There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.

So in my eyes I just don't get why there are so many people on here planning on buying the V6 camaro and modding it out to try to be this beast of a car when the SS is right there for probably less money, 100% warrentied, and minimal difference in insurance.

An intake or a cat back to make it "your own" sure I can agree with that. But putting THOUSANDS into the V6 is just silly when the SS is staring at you.

It will take a lot of mods and power to get the V6 6.1 0-60 to the project 4.4-4.5 0-60 of the SS ......... 1.6 seconds off a 0-60 is a TON of power needed
QFT.

However, the point I think others are trying to make with regards to the V6 modification are more long term plans. Maybe they don't have to money to get the SS at the time with higher gas and insurance, but 50,000 miles later they have a little spare cash to put into the V6. People do this all the time, especially with imports. They buy the base model for whatever reason then start dumping cash into it. You should see some of the people who own 2.2L Cobalt LS and LT's. Plus who knows? Maybe some people want the challenge of building a monster V6.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:05 PM   #32
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I guess.... I am not claiming to be the richest man ever, far from it lol. But I wouldn't even look at this car if I couldn't get the SS. (THIS IS JUST ME)

I would always hate myself for not figuring out a way to buy the SS and would never truely be happy with my base model, especially when I saw an SS on the road. It is only a few grand difference between the two models, if you can afford a new V6 and you can't afford a new SS you probably should be looking at a Kia.

I am in finance and the difference over 48 months or whatever you want to term the loan for 28k/29k vs 22k/24k is peanuts. Unless you are totally happy with the V6 as is and feel 300 HP is enough and you have no plans to mod the car at all then I am cool with owning a V6. But most all of us that are spending time on these boards are enthusiests, not everyday buyers. And with all the threads on modding the V6 it boggles me. I think some of the younger guys who may not be able to afford much don't understand how little the payments will differ between these two models.

Another option for guys who can't afford as much would be instead of purchasing a V6 LEASE the SS. I bet it is actually a bunch cheaper only monthly payments. Then you can give it back in 36 months for the Z28 when it drops
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:11 PM   #33
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To me the 350Z owner doesn't have a choice. That is the top model they have to work with so they need to tune the crap out of that V6. In our case the V6 owners could have bought a fully warrentied V8 with way more power and never had to touch the car. You usually tune the top models not the base.
I would agree with you there.

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For example the civic. 99% of the newly tuned civics will be the Si model. There is no point to modding out the base when it will not even get to the original Si specs.
Umm not actually. Most of the B18 equipped civics (we're talking mid-late 90's civics) are in fact not all modded Si's... Hardly actually... Even the EX, & DX,'s are modded, and some very heavily I might add. Just depends on which V-TEC the car came with.

But if we're talking current gen Civic Si.. then yeah...

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There are cases of this across the board and across all price ranges. Even the sky.solstic or the cobalt. You would never in your right mind buy the base and try to juice it up to its SS or Redline partner, it wouldn't make sense.
There's a 5k+ difference in price between the Solstice, and Solstice GXP. For 4k you can buy a Hahn Stage III turbo kit, and you're making pretty much 400hp... In order to do that for the Solstice GXP the car starts @28k, plus the cheapest turbo swap kit is like 2k. Which is going to cost more to get more power out of? It's not the top model...

Again just some exceptions. As far as the Cobalt goes... Well if a SS/NA dumps a couple grand into a turbo kit, they are making more power then a stock SS/SC that was about 2-3k more. Now with the SS/TC... Yeah a 2.4 Cobalt, or a 2.2L is going to have to do quite a bit more to match them...
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:16 PM   #34
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Well if a SS/NA dumps a couple grand into a turbo kit, they are making more power then a stock SS/SC that was about 2-3k more. Now with the SS/TC... Yeah a 2.4 Cobalt, or a 2.2L is going to have to do quite a bit more to match them...
My poor little 2.4. I want to put in the Hahn Turbo for that easy 290+ horsepower. But since I'm saving for a 5th gen I don't think that will happen. We'll have to see how finances turn up.
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