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Old 09-17-2008, 03:26 PM   #26
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The GT500 also costs $15k-20k more than what the SS will
That would be freakin' awesome, especially since I saw a GT500 this week marked down to $39,999.

Unlikely, but awesome. I'd price the SS starting at high 20's if I were a betting man.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:29 PM   #27
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I don't see high-$20Ks out of the question yet, but this car is going to carry a premium over Mustang, Lutz has already said that. How much? Noone knows for sure yet - 'Father's hinted at not a whole lot but things can change. I believe we're getting confirmation around the beginning of the year.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:37 PM   #28
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What scares me, is that a lot of the standard equipment (I think, and correct me if I'm wrong) that is coming on the SS, like the upgraded FE3 suspension, Brembo brakes, better wheels and tires, are similar features that are available on the SS, are not available on the Mustang, or Challenger mid level segment vehicles (GT & R/T). Those types of features come in their top level vehicles the GT500 priced @42k, and the SRT-8 priced @41k. And the SS power wise comes really close to the two.

So GM stating that the Camaro will be "competitively priced" could mean alot of things.

And seeing that the GTO, which I see a lot of things with the Camaro that parallel to it, wasn't even priced under 30k...

Just scares me I guess. But I'm just going to remain hopeful until official pricing gets released like everyone else here is.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:37 PM   #29
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[QUOTE=DGthe3;131811]we don't know what sort of numbers the Camaro will put to the wheels. The Corvette has a very efficient driveline so losses are in the 10%-13% range. We shouldn't expect the Camaro to do as well as the Corvette, nice if it does though.

Not trying to argue, but I don't really believe driveline losses can be any different from two vehicles with the same transmission and same basic setup...Where would the additional losses come from? I would believe the corvette has a slightly better exhaust setup (don't really know, just guessing) that might give it that extra 8 hp over the camaro, or perhaps a slightly different factory tune, which should show roughly the same 8 hp difference at the rear wheels.

Chassis dyno numbers can be very difficult to compare and driveline losses are calculated by assuming the flywheel hp given by the manufacturer is accurate. A ton of other variables come into play that make calculating drivetrain losses somewhat unreliable.

I am no expert on dyno testing but I just don't see where the difference would come from when comparing the corvette and camaro.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:46 PM   #30
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And seeing that the GTO, which I see a lot of things with the Camaro that parallel to it, wasn't even priced under 30k...
The GTO was made in limited numbers, it was imported (just a rebadged Monaro), and Lutz has said it was overpriced in the past among other things regarding its not-so-hot sales...
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:50 PM   #31
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The GTO was made in limited numbers, it was imported (just a rebadged Monaro), and Lutz has said it was overpriced in the past among other things regarding its not-so-hot sales...

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Old 09-17-2008, 03:52 PM   #32
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[QUOTE=rayhawk;131977]
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we don't know what sort of numbers the Camaro will put to the wheels. The Corvette has a very efficient driveline so losses are in the 10%-13% range. We shouldn't expect the Camaro to do as well as the Corvette, nice if it does though.

Not trying to argue, but I don't really believe driveline losses can be any different from two vehicles with the same transmission and same basic setup...Where would the additional losses come from? I would believe the corvette has a slightly better exhaust setup (don't really know, just guessing) that might give it that extra 8 hp over the camaro, or perhaps a slightly different factory tune, which should show roughly the same 8 hp difference at the rear wheels.

Chassis dyno numbers can be very difficult to compare and driveline losses are calculated by assuming the flywheel hp given by the manufacturer is accurate. A ton of other variables come into play that make calculating drivetrain losses somewhat unreliable.

I am no expert on dyno testing but I just don't see where the difference would come from when comparing the corvette and camaro.
I believe some of the losses are due to differing suspensions too. I couldn't tell you which one is more efficient but I've read that. Also, I don't think it will be quite as high as a base LS3 in the 'Vette because, unless I'm mistaken, the tires on that car are about 26-inches tall, where as SS is going to be something like 28-inches. There loss with the weight of the wheels/tires too that'll drag down the numbers. Gear ratios, although I think the rear gears are similar, will effect numbers - generally higher ratios consume more power. Because Camaro is heavier, I think the driveline components will be heavier too, not to mention I'm sure lighter materials were used where possible on the 'Vette too since they were aiming for a light-weight car.

IMVHO - two different cars with the same engine will just dyno differently.
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Old 09-17-2008, 03:54 PM   #33
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The GTO was made in limited numbers, it was imported (just a rebadged Monaro), and Lutz has said it was overpriced in the past among other things regarding its not-so-hot sales...
Yes, very true. Hopefully they really learned from it and don't make the same mistake with the Camaro.
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Old 09-17-2008, 04:26 PM   #34
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I think that 500 is going to charge really hard down the straights. I'm not sure SS would be able to keep up but I'm hoping so
thats where the Z28 steps in!

at least i hope it does, eventually :x
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:17 PM   #35
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thats where the Z28 steps in!

at least i hope it does, eventually :x
I like how you think
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Old 09-17-2008, 05:58 PM   #36
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I believe some of the losses are due to differing suspensions too. I couldn't tell you which one is more efficient but I've read that. Also, I don't think it will be quite as high as a base LS3 in the 'Vette because, unless I'm mistaken, the tires on that car are about 26-inches tall, where as SS is going to be something like 28-inches. There loss with the weight of the wheels/tires too that'll drag down the numbers. Gear ratios, although I think the rear gears are similar, will effect numbers - generally higher ratios consume more power. Because Camaro is heavier, I think the driveline components will be heavier too, not to mention I'm sure lighter materials were used where possible on the 'Vette too since they were aiming for a light-weight car.

IMVHO - two different cars with the same engine will just dyno differently.

I can't argue with you there, all of those factors definitely come into play, it is just that you hear about these variables but you never really see them quantified. I think when you start adding all the variables you really just end up needing a baseline run before and after mods on the same dyno to come up with any meaningful numbers anyway.

Comparing numbers from different dyno's and different cars, (even the same cars) has to be done carefully because the absolute hp number is not as useful as the change in the number.
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:18 PM   #37
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I can't argue with you there, all of those factors definitely come into play, it is just that you hear about these variables but you never really see them quantified. I think when you start adding all the variables you really just end up needing a baseline run before and after mods on the same dyno to come up with any meaningful numbers anyway.

Comparing numbers from different dyno's and different cars, (even the same cars) has to be done carefully because the absolute hp number is not as useful as the change in the number.
Exactly. Shoot, the same car on the same dyno', at nearly the same time sometimes won't produce exactly the same numbers. I think it'll do good though. It'd be nice to see around 380 but I'm thinking closer to 360-370. Still, that won't be bad at all
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Old 09-17-2008, 06:47 PM   #38
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weren't the HP numbers on the 4th gen UNDER rated? ,it may be the same with the 5th gen as well.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:00 PM   #39
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The GTO was made in limited numbers, it was imported (just a rebadged Monaro), and Lutz has said it was overpriced in the past among other things regarding its not-so-hot sales...
The GTO came out with an MSRP of low 30's right?

well if low 30's was called 'expensive' then i think its more than just possible, i think its LIKELY that we see the SS MSRP in the high 20's.

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Old 09-17-2008, 07:01 PM   #40
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I was told by a person who works with the show and display folks at GM about 6 months ago during a show, that the production convertible was stunning in person. He also said that the high horsepower version of the camaro would be coming out a little after the launch of the convertible and that the power level was about 525 hp. He also said that due to the pending cafe changes that these high powered cars would not be offered for a very long production run. This guy seemed to be a reliable source especially when he said that he had sat in on a meeting about the camaro. He also told me about the billet gas cap being offered way before it was released by gm or shown in print anywhere.

I'am not saying it is fact, but just that it could still be possible.

If gm offered a lsa 6.2 thru gmg or slp, would this be counted under gm's cafe or be counted as a aftermarket tuner exemption or something? Anyone know how this would work?
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:39 PM   #41
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thats where the Z28 steps in!

at least i hope it does, eventually :x
Z28? I'm waiting for the Camaro GTR/F-22.
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:00 PM   #42
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I was told by a person who works with the show and display folks at GM about 6 months ago during a show, that the production convertible was stunning in person. He also said that the high horsepower version of the camaro would be coming out a little after the launch of the convertible and that the power level was about 525 hp. He also said that due to the pending cafe changes that these high powered cars would not be offered for a very long production run. This guy seemed to be a reliable source especially when he said that he had sat in on a meeting about the camaro. He also told me about the billet gas cap being offered way before it was released by gm or shown in print anywhere.

I'am not saying it is fact, but just that it could still be possible.
Sounds pretty logical actually. Sounds like it could happen too. I definitely see that happening... IF it is to happen

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If gm offered a lsa 6.2 thru gmg or slp, would this be counted under gm's cafe or be counted as a aftermarket tuner exemption or something? Anyone know how this would work?
That's a good question. I know Roush Performance that has been synonymous with Ford Products probably for the last 10 years or so
has their plant in Livonia, Mi. Now I don't know if they actually buy the vehicles from Ford, and then customize them and then sell them back to Ford, or just license them through Ford dealerships and sell them... It's a good question, and maybe could be a possible loop-hole around the CAFE standards... All I know is that the few times I've driven past the plant I see a whole parking lot full of straight up looking production F-150's and Mustangs in then in another lot I see them completed, and ready to be shipped... Who knows although I doubt GM would do it. They'll probably just make it for a limited run of like 2-3 years or something...
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:11 PM   #43
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I can tell you that Lingenfilter and SLP will be doing something. What it is no one knows yet. Any time a company builds a hot item like this there is always someone that does the same thing.
Ford: Saleen, Roush, Shelby
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:29 PM   #44
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I can tell you that Lingenfilter and SLP will be doing something. What it is no one knows yet. Any time a company builds a hot item like this there is always someone that does the same thing.
Ford: Saleen, Roush, Shelby
Dodge: Hennessey
Chevrolet: SLP, Lingenfilter
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SLP Performance Parts!!!
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:31 PM   #45
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hey is it lingenfilter or felter?
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Old 09-17-2008, 08:36 PM   #46
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hey is it lingenfilter or felter?
It's LINGENFELTER.

Hopefully Mallet performance comes out with something as well!
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:01 PM   #47
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I've said it many times. If the SS starts at any more than 32k, it will fail and fail hard. The entire reason it went away in '02 is because it wasn't priced competitively with the Mustang. Even if it has better features, the typical salesman doesn't know how to explain or compare them; the price tag is all most people will look at.
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Old 09-17-2008, 09:15 PM   #48
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I've said it many times. If the SS starts at any more than 32k, it will fail and fail hard. The entire reason it went away in '02 is because it wasn't priced competitively with the Mustang. Even if it has better features, the typical salesman doesn't know how to explain or compare them; the price tag is all most people will look at.
Umm, in 2002 a Z28 cost less than a GT: $22 830 vs $23 220. And I believe the Z28 outperformed the Mustang as well.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:08 PM   #49
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Does any one remember that the Camaro 4th gen was killing corvette sales during that time? People were getting the Camaro and doing little mods and were performing better and running better. That was part of the reason the car was stopped, but not the whole reason.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:29 PM   #50
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I was told by a person who works with the show and display folks at GM about 6 months ago during a show, that the production convertible was stunning in person. He also said that the high horsepower version of the camaro would be coming out a little after the launch of the convertible and that the power level was about 525 hp. He also said that due to the pending cafe changes that these high powered cars would not be offered for a very long production run. This guy seemed to be a reliable source especially when he said that he had sat in on a meeting about the camaro. He also told me about the billet gas cap being offered way before it was released by gm or shown in print anywhere.

I'am not saying it is fact, but just that it could still be possible.

If gm offered a lsa 6.2 thru gmg or slp, would this be counted under gm's cafe or be counted as a aftermarket tuner exemption or something? Anyone know how this would work?
I think I just found my new best friend, LOL!!!
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