AIRAID Dyno Test & Videos For 3.6L Camaro

[BackinBlackSS/RS]

Originally Posted by esperman

cause we could miss a gear!

You could miss a gear in an auto?

[Agent Atomic Orange]

My wife has not seen me for weeks. I have been reading Airaid threads. If this is it, what am I gonna do with all my spare time?

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Beauwulf

<snip>

There is a hell of a ledge there that has got to upset the flow somewhere in the rev range. That is another potential issue for performance if the tube is grossly misaligned. After looking at some of the "fast prototype" inserts Airaid used to "tune" this intake, I could see where a mialignment could cause a substantial difference in the effectiveness of the intake.

<snip>

Yep, the "wedge"... There was a thread describing how Airaid designed them, had the CAD drawing, etc. Thread seems to have been deleted...



IIRC the purpose of the wedge was to tune the intake tube so that the MAF would correctly sample the amount of air passing through the tube. In fact David posted :

"An intake system that is properly designed to provide less restriction (more air flow) while allowing the mass air sensor to sample the incoming air flow accurately (as it did in the original intake) should not result in the PCM re-learning or compensating. The additional air flow resulting from less restriction should be measured from the mass air sensor accurately as the correct frequency reading per volume of air. Additional air flow should continue to be sampled accurately from the mass air sensor until the additional amount of air flow exceeds the functional limits of the mass air sensor or the allowable parameters of the PCM."

from here: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...91#post1070991

The way I read that is a properly designed intake system should retain the stock A/F. Airaid's own testing showed this is not the case. The Airaid intake is in fact shifting the A/F. This seems to be contrary to Airaid's own design principals.

I've mentioned that I also seen a shift in the A/F in my data. While I don't have a way to measure A/F directly, we can look at the O2 data, since our cars actually use wideband O2 sensors, just like an A/F gauge!

Here is some of the data I've collected... I'm only going to show a small section of the data, mainly a point at 6000 RPM... yes, only one point but the rest of the RPM range pretty much shows the same thing..

Here is some data from my stock intake:




And the Airaid:




Here is what the data is telling me.. everyone is free to draw their own conclusion...

MAF Frequency - Notice the stock intake number is higher than the Airaid. That would mean the stock intake is flowing more air than the Airaid, which obviously isn't true.

O2 - The O2 number is the mvolt output from the sensors. The higher the number the richer the mixture. Unfortunately their is no easy way to translate the number to an A/F... but the key is higher is richer... So the stock intake has the O2 output at 905 & 900. The Airaid intake has the O2 output at 885 and 885. So in this case the Airaid is in fact running leaner than the stock intake. Again this supported by Airaid's findings on their dyno.

What does this mean... My interpretation of this data is that the "wedge" does not appear to be working as designed. It appears that the MAF sensor when in the Airaid intake tube is "under-reporting" the amount of air that is actually flowing through the tube. That would explain why my fuel trims went from -1.6% to +2.3% (even +3.1%). Yes, I did reset my fuel trims and drove around for 30 minutes in a wide variety of conditions, stop-n-go, hard accell, cruising... And it would explain the shift in the A/F from 900/905 down to 885, indicating the car is running leaner...

Again this is how I interpret this data. This is not a comment on actual performance... To me this is just supporting data for the A/F shift.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by 97one

WOW after reading 120 posts it's nice to see track time mentioned...

I would love to see some time slips with & without the Airaid on the same day with the same DA.
I don't know if Scrming is going to do any track tests?

Well, i have the swap time down to about 20 mintues... LOL! No track for a few more weeks though... LOL

[ChadG]

Did I miss the memo, what's up with all the Star Trek avatars and references?

[97one]

Originally Posted by scrming

Well, i have the swap time down to about 20 mintues... LOL! No track for a few more weeks though... LOL

OK, so maybe in April that would be GREAT .......

[devildoc]

Yeah you missed it Chad lol

[Beauwulf]

Hey John... lemme ask you a couple of questions. I assume you removed the tune for these runs? Also, how much timing was being pulled with just your headers... without the tune?

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Beauwulf

Hey John... lemme ask you a couple of questions. I assume you removed the tune for these runs? Also, how much timing was being pulled with just your headers... without the tune?

Yep, flashed the car back...

When I run 93 I really don't seen any knock retard... except when I slap the throttle,which according to Vince is most likely "burst" knock retard.. So I'll see a few degrees getting pulled but only for a short time...

[Beauwulf]

Interesting.... I wonder if the cam phase follows timing...

[esperman]

Originally Posted by ChadG

Did I miss the memo, what's up with all the Star Trek avatars and references?

just as a heads up..next week it's the smurfs....

[esperman]

Originally Posted by scrming

Yep, the "wedge"... There was a thread describing how Airaid designed them, had the CAD drawing, etc. Thread seems to have been deleted...



IIRC the purpose of the wedge was to tune the intake tube so that the MAF would correctly sample the amount of air passing through the tube. In fact David posted :

"An intake system that is properly designed to provide less restriction (more air flow) while allowing the mass air sensor to sample the incoming air flow accurately (as it did in the original intake) should not result in the PCM re-learning or compensating. The additional air flow resulting from less restriction should be measured from the mass air sensor accurately as the correct frequency reading per volume of air. Additional air flow should continue to be sampled accurately from the mass air sensor until the additional amount of air flow exceeds the functional limits of the mass air sensor or the allowable parameters of the PCM."

from here: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...91#post1070991

The way I read that is a properly designed intake system should retain the stock A/F. Airaid's own testing showed this is not the case. The Airaid intake is in fact shifting the A/F. This seems to be contrary to Airaid's own design principals.

I've mentioned that I also seen a shift in the A/F in my data. While I don't have a way to measure A/F directly, we can look at the O2 data, since our cars actually use wideband O2 sensors, just like an A/F gauge!

Here is some of the data I've collected... I'm only going to show a small section of the data, mainly a point at 6000 RPM... yes, only one point but the rest of the RPM range pretty much shows the same thing..

Here is some data from my stock intake:




And the Airaid:




Here is what the data is telling me.. everyone is free to draw their own conclusion...

MAF Frequency - Notice the stock intake number is higher than the Airaid. That would mean the stock intake is flowing more air than the Airaid, which obviously isn't true.

O2 - The O2 number is the mvolt output from the sensors. The higher the number the richer the mixture. Unfortunately their is no easy way to translate the number to an A/F... but the key is higher is richer... So the stock intake has the O2 output at 905 & 900. The Airaid intake has the O2 output at 885 and 885. So in this case the Airaid is in fact running leaner than the stock intake. Again this supported by Airaid's findings on their dyno.

What does this mean... My interpretation of this data is that the "wedge" does not appear to be working as designed. It appears that the MAF sensor when in the Airaid intake tube is "under-reporting" the amount of air that is actually flowing through the tube. That would explain why my fuel trims went from -1.6% to +2.3% (even +3.1%). Yes, I did reset my fuel trims and drove around for 30 minutes in a wide variety of conditions, stop-n-go, hard accell, cruising... And it would explain the shift in the A/F from 900/905 down to 885, indicating the car is running leaner...

Again this is how I interpret this data. This is not a comment on actual performance... To me this is just supporting data for the A/F shift.

I find this initial AFR report troubling....
scrming, your still burning 93 right?

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by devildoc

GTAHVIT - so does that count towards me since I have my own experience and dyno proof? I believe the accusations are true on some basis. Tell me how there is only a 4% drivetrain loss for tq? Doesn't seem odd to you? I mean come on you have me, the guy that supposedly started all of this, putting all of his intergrity on the line and allowing people to call me a bitch yet we have knowledgable people on here trying to prove points. I think mrray's points are valid enough. You can move this I guess to the vendor area, but by being in the V6 area I would hope that it is open to all comments! I know your a Mod so I respect any decision you make but they also have you as a mod because you are fair.

No you are free to post your findings. and even your opinion. But in the end I won't let the argument persist. make you point state your facts and let the opposing side post theirs. In the end if you don't come to an agreement then agree to disagree and let everyone else make their own judgement call.

That's all I'm saying. if you don't know for sure that someone is doing something unethical then don't make the accusation.

But we all know that dyno numbers are arguable at best for many of the reasons already stated.

[spoone123]

Originally Posted by scrming

Yep, flashed the car back...

When I run 93 I really don't seen any knock retard... except when I slap the throttle,which according to Vince is most likely "burst" knock retard.. So I'll see a few degrees getting pulled but only for a short time...

What is Knock retard and pinging? so running 93 would get rid of it even tho the car is not tune?

[devildoc]

I think from earlier reports it seems our engine loves the 93 more than the 87. Though I just put 89 in it and can actually tell that it runs smoother by monitoring the rpm band with the dashhawk, though this may be due to the new spark plugs I just put in. The oem ones were literally black around the base of the plugs.

[bmwdon]

got my denso plugs too....parts are starting to show up, tools are here, just a couple more components and I'll have to schedule the trigger pull thinking I need a dashhawk too

[devildoc]

Im assuming that the black around the plugs was caused by carbon?

[dagolfguy]

scrm,
Did those two data logs occur on the same day? I'm asking because I think the MAF is measuring mass, so the total air density would play a factor. Differences in temp and humidity would account for a diff in the MAF reading at the same RPM. Same flow rate, different density.

Bigger question:
Does anyone know how Airaid measured the a/f ratio? Like; did they stick a sensor in front of the cat where the O2 bank-1 sensor is? If they did it without a probe of some kind, I'm really like to know how (so that I can use the supplied signals to do the same thing)!

[spoone123]

Originally Posted by devildoc

Im assuming that the black around the plugs was caused by carbon?

probably, I had to inspect spark plug when I do service inspection on a Gas Turbine Generator. fuel don't burn efficient enough causes carbon to build up.

[camdaddy]

David, I installed my Airaid yesterday and so far it's great! As one of the other fellas said, my "butt dyno" loved it! I'm a bit confused by all the bickering and arguing going on in this thread. You talk about differences in dynos and other factors, but what I think a lot of you fail to realize is how much the weather plays a role in these tests. How much horsepower your engine produces is directly related to temperature, altitude, and humidity. If it's hot and muggy outside, your car will not perform as well as it would in cool and dry conditions.

[BaylorCamaro]

Originally Posted by camdaddy

David, I installed my Airaid yesterday and so far it's great! As one of the other fellas said, my "butt dyno" loved it! I'm a bit confused by all the bickering and arguing going on in this thread. You talk about differences in dynos and other factors, but what I think a lot of you fail to realize is how much the weather plays a role in these tests. How much horsepower your engine produces is directly related to temperature, altitude, and humidity. If it's hot and muggy outside, your car will not perform as well as it would in cool and dry conditions.

I agree with this, others have said in this thread that they realize these things and are a cause of hp/tq fluctuation, which makes sense to me. The important thing here is if you're seeing increases across the bored, whether it is 3hp or 10hp, the unit is giving you gains. Where the problem lies, is devildoc's test that shows a loss. To me its not so much the numbers (although it is still important) but it's a static loss/gain.

[sstphoenix]

Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS

You could miss a gear in an auto?

To begin, I dont believe I am as informed or as knowledgable as most of you here in this thread, but this comment must refer to the "unable to skip gears" on manuals topic i read about around the time I got my V6 manual.

If my assumption is correct, then I havent really understood this. But I have noticed that when I ride hard, I have a little issue slipping the gear into 2nd from 1st. Its the only shift that gives me a little trouble.

Im wondering if its due to a lack of skill on my part, or am I missing something else?

N yeah, I'd love a nice explanation of what forum members meant by "unable to skip gears on a manual transmission"

any ideas or redirects?

thanks in advance.

Also, I was considering adding an AI to the car for HP and MPG performance increases. This thread was helpful in some ways so thx to all of you.

[devildoc]

Originally Posted by camdaddy

David, I installed my Airaid yesterday and so far it's great! As one of the other fellas said, my "butt dyno" loved it! I'm a bit confused by all the bickering and arguing going on in this thread. You talk about differences in dynos and other factors, but what I think a lot of you fail to realize is how much the weather plays a role in these tests. How much horsepower your engine produces is directly related to temperature, altitude, and humidity. If it's hot and muggy outside, your car will not perform as well as it would in cool and dry conditions.

Well my original run was almost the most preferrable conditions since I live at a 23' elevation and the temp, humidity, barometer were exactly where you would want them. Also, all my runs were doing in a climate controled building, thus that is how all of the atmospherics were equal. Hope that helps clear that up.

Originally Posted by BaylorAirForce

I agree with this, others have said in this thread that they realize these things and are a cause of hp/tq fluctuation, which makes sense to me. The important thing here is if you're seeing increases across the bored, whether it is 3hp or 10hp, the unit is giving you gains. Where the problem lies, is devildoc's test that shows a loss. To me its not so much the numbers (although it is still important) but it's a static loss/gain.

Very true Baylor - I mean it wouldn't have been a problem for me at all if I had gained some hp/tq with the airaid. But I guess I didn't. If you compare my original dyno with the airaid intake/exhaust it was 241hp then the test that put everyone on the "war path" was that same test/same day provided 253hp stock box to 242hp airaid. All with alittle bit worse atmospherics.

Originally Posted by sstphoenix

To begin, I dont believe I am as informed or as knowledgable as most of you here in this thread, but this comment must refer to the "unable to skip gears" on manuals topic i read about around the time I got my V6 manual.

If my assumption is correct, then I havent really understood this. But I have noticed that when I ride hard, I have a little issue slipping the gear into 2nd from 1st. Its the only shift that gives me a little trouble.

Im wondering if its due to a lack of skill on my part, or am I missing something else?

N yeah, I'd love a nice explanation of what forum members meant by "unable to skip gears on a manual transmission"

any ideas or redirects?

thanks in advance.

Also, I was considering adding an AI to the car for HP and MPG performance increases. This thread was helpful in some ways so thx to all of you.

We were talking about doing a 1/4mi drag.....the joke was that an auto would only beat a manny by the driver missing a gear.

[scrming]

Originally Posted by dagolfguy

scrm,
Did those two data logs occur on the same day? I'm asking because I think the MAF is measuring mass, so the total air density would play a factor. Differences in temp and humidity would account for a diff in the MAF reading at the same RPM. Same flow rate, different density.

Bigger question:
Does anyone know how Airaid measured the a/f ratio? Like; did they stick a sensor in front of the cat where the O2 bank-1 sensor is? If they did it without a probe of some kind, I'm really like to know how (so that I can use the supplied signals to do the same thing)!

You are correct... different days, different air... BUT again, Airaid showed an A/F shift, others have shown an A/F shift, I seen an A/F shift... The simplest explanation to me is that the MAF is incorrectly reporting the air flow (under reporting so to speak). While the air changes from day to day, i'm not sure it changes enough to make such a dramatic difference in my MAF frequency data... So again I just view this as supporting data for the A/F shift..

[kga10734]

When Airaid first came out, wasn't it explained that the "wedge" was designed to make the airflow go up and toward the MAF so it could get a correct reading? It's been so long ago, but I think that was the idea behind the "wedge". It also seems to me, the intake is kind of like the exhaust, If it gets choked down to a smaller diameter pipe along the way, this pretty much disrupts the flow and make the rest of the larger pipe redundant?

I'm interested in seeing your dyno results scrming. I put mine back on this past Saturday, and I can tell a slight difference in bottom end torque.