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Old 07-20-2010, 09:33 AM   #101
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Good brake fluid info... and Wildrova, I think you're on to something there
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Old 07-20-2010, 10:19 AM   #102
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Hi all,
joined up after reading this thread, drooling lots and then wanting to ask a question...

I own a Holden WM Caprice (a LWB Pontiac G8) and am looking at brake upgrade options.

A number of G8 owners are using the stock Camaro (ss?) calipers and rotors as an upgrade. Its a bolt-on upgrade for the front (mounting point on the knuckle requires drilling out) and the rears require a small bracket to make fit ( although e-brake function is lost)

Given that the CTS-V front calipers and rotors are a bolt-on upgrade for the Camaro am I right in thinking that they would also be a bolt-on upgrade for the G8??

hope the above makes sense and someone might be able to confirm my logic is correct.

regards,
Paul
Paul,

The front caliper bolts on the CTS-V are a bit larger than the bolts on the VE. You will need to drill out the threads in the knuckle and cut the dust shield to fit the CTS-V caliper. The rear is a bit trickier matching offset on the rotor. On the Camaro we use a Camaro rotor with the CTS-V caliper. On your car you are going to have to fit check because I am not familiar with the rear long wheel base brake setup to see if the Camaro or CTS-V rear rotor is correct. We have run the G8 here in the USA with just the CTS-V fronts with very good results.

You should also note that aside from color, the CTS-V and Camaro SS rear calipers are the same.
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Old 07-20-2010, 11:42 AM   #103
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Paul,

The front caliper bolts on the CTS-V are a bit larger than the bolts on the VE. You will need to drill out the threads in the knuckle and cut the dust shield to fit the CTS-V caliper. The rear is a bit trickier matching offset on the rotor. On the Camaro we use a Camaro rotor with the CTS-V caliper. On your car you are going to have to fit check because I am not familiar with the rear long wheel base brake setup to see if the Camaro or CTS-V rear rotor is correct. We have run the G8 here in the USA with just the CTS-V fronts with very good results.

You should also note that aside from color, the CTS-V and Camaro SS rear calipers are the same.
Yeah, the rears are more different that just the offset between the Camaro/CTS-V and the Holden. The parking brake drum is also a different diameter, so the Camaro rear rotor will not work. GM just couldn't have gone the easy (and more economical) route...

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:28 PM   #104
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Yeah, the rears are more different that just the offset between the Camaro/CTS-V and the Holden. The parking brake drum is also a different diameter, so the Camaro rear rotor will not work. GM just couldn't have gone the easy (and more economical) route...

Chris
There must be a reason for them to make the change. If they can carry over a part from another platform, millions of dollars can be saved. GM used a lot of great processes for the development of the Camaro. It would, however, be really interesting to actually find out the specifics on why they did something specifically. I.E, the rear brakes, Now if we had a Zeta and ZetaII rear brake assembly side by side, we could most likely figure it out. I would think the Camaro will be either larger, more venting, etc than the G8

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Old 07-20-2010, 12:50 PM   #105
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There must be a reason for them to make the change. If they can carry over a part from another platform, millions of dollars can be saved. GM used a lot of great processes for the development of the Camaro. It would, however, be really interesting to actually find out the specifics on why they did something specifically. I.E, the rear brakes, Now if we had a Zeta and ZetaII rear brake assembly side by side, we could most likely figure it out. I would think the Camaro will be either larger, more venting, etc than the G8

thanks
mike
I'd like to hear why as well. We've studied these closely side by side and can't figure it out by looking. They are very similar in size and layout, but just a few different dimensions here and there. Might have been a parts bin deal, like we've seen before.

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Old 07-21-2010, 02:10 AM   #106
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wow, thanks for all the quick replies.

Peter, it seems you have experience with all three vehicles (camaro, cts-v and G8) I hope you don't mind if i ask a few more q's...


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Paul,

The front caliper bolts on the CTS-V are a bit larger than the bolts on the VE. You will need to drill out the threads in the knuckle and cut the dust shield to fit the CTS-V caliper.
Yep. I believe the VE is a 12mm mounting bolt and the camaro is a 14mm bolt. If the CTS-V is also a 14mm bolt then this would mean there is no difference between mounting the camaro calipers which a number of people have done and the CTS-v calipers which would be much nicer.

Quote:
The rear is a bit trickier matching offset on the rotor. On the Camaro we use a Camaro rotor with the CTS-V caliper. On your car you are going to have to fit check because I am not familiar with the rear long wheel base brake setup to see if the Camaro or CTS-V rear rotor is correct.
The LWB rear brake set up is the same as the standard wheel base.

Quote:
We have run the G8 here in the USA with just the CTS-V fronts with very good results.

You should also note that aside from color, the CTS-V and Camaro SS rear calipers are the same.
If the rear calipers and disks are the same (camaro vs CTS-V), then they will fit the G8 with a small adapter bracket (made by a member of one of the G8 forums).

My understanding is that the issue with using the camaro rear set up on a G8 is the loss of e-brake function. I believe that this is caused by the iner surface of the camaro brake (where the drum brake pads press) being a 199mm diameter whereas the G8 is only a 190mm diameter.

Is anybody able to confirm the measurement of the camaro caliper??

Would a fix to this be to seek a custom rotor (perhaps 2 piece) that had the outer dimensions of a camaro rear rotor and the inner dimensions of a g8 rotor??
hope the above makes sense,

thanks again,
Paul

Last edited by wildrova; 07-21-2010 at 03:06 AM. Reason: fat fingers - can't type :)
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:23 PM   #107
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wow, thanks for all the quick replies.

Peter, it seems you have experience with all three vehicles (camaro, cts-v and G8) I hope you don't mind if i ask a few more q's...




Yep. I believe the VE is a 12mm mounting bolt and the camaro is a 14mm bolt. If the CTS-V is also a 14mm bolt then this would mean there is no difference between mounting the camaro calipers which a number of people have done and the CTS-v calipers which would be much nicer.


The LWB rear brake set up is the same as the standard wheel base.



If the rear calipers and disks are the same (camaro vs CTS-V), then they will fit the G8 with a small adapter bracket (made by a member of one of the G8 forums).

My understanding is that the issue with using the camaro rear set up on a G8 is the loss of e-brake function. I believe that this is caused by the iner surface of the camaro brake (where the drum brake pads press) being a 199mm diameter whereas the G8 is only a 190mm diameter.

Is anybody able to confirm the measurement of the camaro caliper??

Would a fix to this be to seek a custom rotor (perhaps 2 piece) that had the outer dimensions of a camaro rear rotor and the inner dimensions of a g8 rotor??
hope the above makes sense,

thanks again,
Paul
Paul,

One of my dealers was able to use the Cadillac rotor in the rear with a thin spacer on the G8 and retain the e-brake function. The tech that did the work is no longer on staff so I could not get the specifics, other than it can be made to work. My experise comes to a dismal end
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Old 07-23-2010, 09:58 PM   #108
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Looks like the brakes are the same as the CTS-V brakes!
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:03 PM   #109
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Paul,

One of my dealers was able to use the Cadillac rotor in the rear with a thin spacer on the G8 and retain the e-brake function. The tech that did the work is no longer on staff so I could not get the specifics, other than it can be made to work. My experise comes to a dismal end
Nice call on this mod, So do you run GM or did a bird whisper in your ear, If i didn't know any better i will say you had a peak at that Z28 some time back.

Thanks for all you guys do.
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:27 PM   #110
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Nice call on this mod, So do you run GM or did a bird whisper in your ear, If i didn't know any better i will say you had a peak at that Z28 some time back.

Thanks for all you guys do.
I have to say, it was really hard to learn bird language. The CTS-V install was a piece of cake by comparison.

If you look at the sneak photos of the Z28 that were posted a short time ago I would bet dollars to donuts it had CTS-V brakes.

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Old 07-23-2010, 10:35 PM   #111
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That is why i posted As soon as i looked at the pic, So is this the car with 315/35/20 in the rear too, Its ok you can say it in bird language.

One twit for yes and 2 for NO.LOL
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Old 07-23-2010, 10:45 PM   #112
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tweet tweetly-tweet Man it was hot out today.
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Old 07-28-2010, 09:37 PM   #113
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The new Camaro rear rotors and Cadillac CTS-V rotors have been collecting dust long enough. The Castrol SRF arrived today along with the new Cobalt Friction XR1 and XR3 brake pads. We are about to take the Cadillac CTS-V brakes to a new level of excellence.

Cobalt Friction pads are the best we have found. They are race only pads, but I use them all summer long on the street. They are noisy and dirty, but they stop the car hot or cold like no other pad.

SRF is the best of the best. Some will disagree, but the wet boiling point is outstanding.

Brake Fluid Wet / Dry Boiling Point
AP SUPER 600 590F / 410F
CASTROL SRF 590F / 518F
NEO SUPER DOT 610 610F / 421F
MOTUL RACING 600 593F / 420F
MOTUL DOT 5.1 509F / 365F
ATE SUPER BLUE 536F / 392F
VALVOLINE SYNPOWER 503F 343F
ATE SL 500F / 329F
CASTROL LMA 450F / 311F
AP 551 528F / 288F

With the thermal management complete and the brake parts and fluid in hand we are almost ready for another day at the track.

Thermal Management Thread
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:41 AM   #114
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WE just insalled this front brake upgrade last night on the shop car.WOW they are large and they look great.It makes a nice upgrade and I like the fact that the parts are gm.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:45 AM   #115
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Brake Fluid Wet / Dry Boiling Point
AP SUPER 600 590F / 410F
CASTROL SRF 590F / 518F
NEO SUPER DOT 610 610F / 421F
MOTUL RACING 600 593F / 420F
MOTUL DOT 5.1 509F / 365F
ATE SUPER BLUE 536F / 392F
VALVOLINE SYNPOWER 503F 343F
ATE SL 500F / 329F
CASTROL LMA 450F / 311F
AP 551 528F / 288F
Speaking of great fluids, let's not leave out AP Racing's PRF: 617F / 399F. It currently has the best recovery of the top brake fluids on the market (least compressibility after boiling). Many Sprint Cup drivers prefer this fluid based on that property alone.

Also, wet boiling point is nearly irrelevant unless someone is planning on keeping the fluid in the car for more than 2 years. The SAE wet boiling test uses fluid saturated at 3.7% moisture content. Brake fluid, being hygroscopic, will absorb about 1.5% to 2% per year, depending on the climate and heat cycle extremes the fluid experiences. This absorption rate decreases asymptotically to level out at around 5.5%, as the fluid won't absorb much more than that. Anyone keeping their fluid fresh and dry (flushing after track days, not using pressure bleeders without a diaphragm, etc.) will not need to worry about the wet boiling point.

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Old 07-29-2010, 12:01 PM   #116
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Speaking of great fluids, let's not leave out AP Racing's PRF: 617F / 399F. It currently has the best recovery of the top brake fluids on the market (least compressibility after boiling). Many Sprint Cup drivers prefer this fluid based on that property alone.

Also, wet boiling point is nearly irrelevant unless someone is planning on keeping the fluid in the car for more than 2 years. The SAE wet boiling test uses fluid saturated at 3.7% moisture content. Brake fluid, being hygroscopic, will absorb about 1.5% to 2% per year, depending on the climate and heat cycle extremes the fluid experiences. This absorption rate decreases asymptotically to level out at around 5.5%, as the fluid won't absorb much more than that. Anyone keeping their fluid fresh and dry (flushing after track days, not using pressure bleeders without a diaphragm, etc.) will not need to worry about the wet boiling point.

Chris
A great point!

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Old 07-29-2010, 12:12 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Chris_B View Post
Speaking of great fluids, let's not leave out AP Racing's PRF: 617F / 399F. It currently has the best recovery of the top brake fluids on the market (least compressibility after boiling). Many Sprint Cup drivers prefer this fluid based on that property alone.

Also, wet boiling point is nearly irrelevant unless someone is planning on keeping the fluid in the car for more than 2 years. The SAE wet boiling test uses fluid saturated at 3.7% moisture content. Brake fluid, being hygroscopic, will absorb about 1.5% to 2% per year, depending on the climate and heat cycle extremes the fluid experiences. This absorption rate decreases asymptotically to level out at around 5.5%, as the fluid won't absorb much more than that. Anyone keeping their fluid fresh and dry (flushing after track days, not using pressure bleeders without a diaphragm, etc.) will not need to worry about the wet boiling point.

Chris
So are you saying that the stock brake fluid needs to be replaced every two years? Not very knowledgable in this area. Thanks
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:16 PM   #118
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should be yes, more if you are tracking the car.
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Old 07-29-2010, 12:24 PM   #119
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So are you saying that the stock brake fluid needs to be replaced every two years? Not very knowledgable in this area. Thanks
It is interesting how the domestics do not recommend a brake fluid service, yet most of the popular foreign rides do. Even though the brake fluid system is in fact sealed from the atmosphere, the fluid does become "used up"! And having the fluid exposed to moisture in the air, is seriously bad. Brake fluid is like a desicant when it comes to moisture

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Old 07-29-2010, 12:42 PM   #120
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Off the top of your head what does the replacement of the brake fluid usually cost. I have only been on a track one time and I made two laps, until I saw what it was doing to my tires, lol, but I only have about 6600 miles on my car and I have had it for a year, mostly highway driving but an ocassional dusting of some folks around here. So is it the usage or the time that would indicate the need for a change?
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:11 PM   #121
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So are you saying that the stock brake fluid needs to be replaced every two years? Not very knowledgable in this area. Thanks
Absolutely! Not only does the boiling point continually drop, the added moisture increases the change of component corrosion. This would hold true for just about every car on the road. The moisture mostly comes through the OE rubber lines over time. Another good argument for quality stainless steel braided brake lines.

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Old 07-29-2010, 01:15 PM   #122
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Off the top of your head what does the replacement of the brake fluid usually cost. I have only been on a track one time and I made two laps, until I saw what it was doing to my tires, lol, but I only have about 6600 miles on my car and I have had it for a year, mostly highway driving but an ocassional dusting of some folks around here. So is it the usage or the time that would indicate the need for a change?
Unless you are doing serious track days, once every two years is good. Once per year is a little better. A flush will cost about 3 bottles of brake fluid plus 1 hour labor (well, the better shops anyway!). This could be anywhere from $120 to $200 depending on fluid choice and shop labor rate.

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Old 07-29-2010, 07:23 PM   #123
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Off the top of your head what does the replacement of the brake fluid usually cost. I have only been on a track one time and I made two laps, until I saw what it was doing to my tires, lol, but I only have about 6600 miles on my car and I have had it for a year, mostly highway driving but an occasional dusting of some folks around here. So is it the usage or the time that would indicate the need for a change?
It depends on which fluid you use. The Castrol SRF is about $65 a bottle on the Internet. Other fluids as low as a couple of bucks. When changing brake fluid on a 2010 Camaro you should cycle the ABS pump to change out that fluid as well. You can use a Tech II tool set to the Corvette chassis for this. If you bring in a high quality fluid, you should also have the shop flush thier power bleeder with your fluid so you are not mixing $3 brake fluid with you $15 fluid.

Doing an anal brake fluid change should not take any more than 90 minutes with a standard brake fluid change no more than an hour. If you know the local shop rate and the cost of the fluid you select you'll have your answer.
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Old 07-29-2010, 07:31 PM   #124
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There are a a number of opinions on which brake fluid is best. My crew swears by Castrol SRF.

All brake fluid is hydrophilic which is a fancy word that means the fluid attracts water out of the air. All brake fluid will have some water in it unless it just came out of a sealed bottle. The amount of water is relative as is the use. If you change out your fluid after every race, you have no need to be concerned about the wet boiling point. If you live in high humidity areas and change your fluid during the track season you should be concerned about wet boiling points. If you change your fluid every two years you should pay attention to wet boiling points.

The engineers and drivers I work with have a strong preference for Castrol SRF. They refer to it as the Gold Standard for brake fluid. When they talk, especially the driver who is putting his lie on the line, I listen. Pedders USA cars track on Castrol SRF.
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Old 08-04-2010, 10:01 PM   #125
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Some one musst really like SRF. I have ordered from four places only to find it is out of stock. The fifth supplier came through today. Now we just have to flush the Camaro and Mustang.
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