Looks like there is finally proof, the Manual IS Quicker....

[o2camaross]

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

Well...I have high HOPES for your twelves...it just doesn't equate in my mind....
but time will tell...

Good luck with stock 12s is all I can say at this point.

and... I've said it before....you can always "FORCE" the car to "over perform" with a stick....but at what cost?

Hole shots, no lift shifts, all takes it's toll.
When I'm dragin' the A4...I "roll" into the pedal to reduce drive line "Shock" and pull 1.7 60 fts...11.7 quarters are hard to find.

I know guys in 4th gens with a stall and boltons running better than 11.7's easily. Im not knocking your car but somethings not adding up if you do indeed have 600 hp. it it flywheel hp or rwhp? Anyway the SS manual shouldnt have a problem hitting 12's stock in my book. I would even go as far as saying 12.8's

[69 Hugger]

Originally Posted by Mblock66

I think you are nit picking a littttle much lol.

I second that,

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Wm Holden

Well...I have high HOPES for your twelves...it just doesn't equate in my mind....
but time will tell...

That's all I would ask....stupid waiting game!!!

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by CWIweldace

This car should handle it just fine. GM designed the Camaro to handle at least 600lbs of torque. (although GM says they have no plans for a Z28 high HP, just my wishful thinking that the Z28 will come back later if sales go good.)

I ran the shit out of my '68, the only thing I broke was the tranny and I never drove it again. I sold it as is, then went in the army, I was 18 at the time. Back in the 70's you could get away with cruising and stoplight racing. The cops just hung around in case someone got too wild. Couldn't tell ya how many times they made me dump my beer out and get out of town for the night.

Unfortunately I had chipped a gear trying to get out of a ditch after leaving a keg party out a country road. In the process the clutch linkage dropped. So I was able to force it into gear and rock it back and forth (yes the 396 had torque to do it) till I got out of the ditch and drove home 20 miles without clutch linkage. Two weeks later when I smoked a 440 Magnum, The tranny blew up at 130 MPH. Big mistake was not cleaning out the tranny and putting a magnetic plug in. My new Camaro won't see that kind of action. Blowing that tranny probably saved my life in the long run.

All driving gradually wears on the entire drive train. Aggressive driving speeds up the process. I drive a little more conservative than I did 33 years ago, but it will be fun to bring back some of those memories.

I'm glad this battle of the muscle cars is happening again. Although laws and law enforcement is considerably different than it was in the 70's, it's nostalgic for my generation and will give the younger generations a hint of what it was like a long long time ago in another universe.

Ultimately why worry what we can do stock? It won't take much to get more out of these cars. Let's all just embrace the fact that it's actually happening. I am pumped as much as anyone.:happyanim :

750 rwhp means more than 600ftlbs of torque in an ls engine

[Crowley]

Lets try to put this into perspective. As a former 2004 Cobra owner (eventually modded to 509rwhp / 520rwtq) ..

Stock, people got those cars to run mid-high 12s at 110 - 113mph .. That was with 390/390 and a car weight of about 3665lbs ..

If the camaro puts down the advertised HP/TQ (which I bet it will and then some) but is at about 3850lbs or so .. I think it should run high 12's at about 110 or so with a good driver.

Also, there is a big differnce (at least w/ ford) between the live axel and the IRS setup. It seemed to me with the IRS I could get a lot better traction with higher hp/tq numbers. Even when I was a 520rwtq .. I could put it down pretty well. I did however upgrade from the stock 275s to 305s on 18x10 inch rims ..

Crowley

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by headpunter

750 rwhp means more than 600ftlbs of torque in an ls engine

horsepower sells cars.


torque wins races.

[CWI]

Originally Posted by fbird777

Other than drinking and driving, to that post.

Like I said it was 1976. I was 17 yrs old. I also said blowing that tranny probably saved my life. I was pretty wild back then and thought I had the world by the balls. A few months after that I was in the army jumping out of C-130s at FT Bragg. Go figure. Go all my Airborne brothers!

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by CWIweldace

Like I said it was 1976. I was 17 yrs old. I also said blowing that tranny probably saved my life. I was pretty wild back then and thought I had the world by the balls. A few months after that I was in the army jumping out of C-130s at FT Bragg. Go figure. Go all my Airborne brothers!

parachute school


week 1. seperate the men from the boys



week 2. seperate the men from the fools



week 3. the fools jump

[storm79]

k i got a question though, but i wonder if he said the auto as in not using tap shift or if he meant using tap shift controls, because i thought TAPshift was always faster than a manual in most cases anyways

[headpunter]

o-60 is probably going to be only one shift so there isnt going to be much difference between the paddles and the normal auto

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

horsepower sells cars.


torque wins races.

i forgot i was just saying with how the LS v8 engines run that a 750hp LS v8 would have more then 600 ft lbs of torque.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by headpunter

i forgot i was just saying with how the LS v8 engines run that a 750hp LS v8 would have more then 600 ft lbs of torque.

and it all means nothing if you cant get it to the ground.

case in point
346hp LT1 - 11.8 seconds 1/4 mile

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

and it all means nothing if you cant get it to the ground.

case in point
346hp LT1 - 11.8 seconds 1/4 mile

i wasnt even refering to that, some one said the rear end was good for 600 ft lbs and i was refering to my talk with Oppenhieser about how they put 750hp through the rearend so my comment was to infer that 750hp in a LS v8 would be closer to 680-700 ft/lbs . i was just making a point about the rearend and transmission strength not what was better.

[Jamestwilliams]

Originally Posted by headpunter

i wasnt even refering to that, some one said the rear end was good for 600 ft lbs and i was refering to my talk with Oppenhieser about how they put 750hp through the rearend so my comment was to infer that 750hp in a LS v8 would be closer to 680-700 ft/lbs . i was just making a point about the rearend and transmission strength not what was better.

Did he say that was through a stock tranny, or were they just testing the rear end through a machine, just wondering because I thought the stock tranny was only rated to about 450lbft of torque.

[Shifty 6]

I wonder if the moderator could merge this thread with the "auto faster than mt" thread. That could be interesting.

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by Jamestwilliams

Did he say that was through a stock tranny, or were they just testing the rear end through a machine, just wondering because I thought the stock tranny was only rated to about 450lbft of torque.

no confimations either way.

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23

horsepower sells cars.
torque wins races.

That's a popular belief, but it's not accurate. Torque is simply a measure of instantaneous force, not power over time, and a part of the equation that determines horsepower. Horsepower, on the other hand, is the measure of the rate at which work is done, and that determines the car's rate of acceleration. A better way to say what is meant by "torque wins races" is to say that horsepower developed by higher torque at lower rpm wins races, because that develops useable horsepower at rpm levels likely to be seen on street driven cars.

Bob

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by bobscogin

That's a popular belief, but it's not accurate. Torque is simply a measure of instantaneous force, not power over time, and a part of the equation that determines horsepower. Horsepower, on the other hand, is the measure of the rate at which work is done, and that determines the car's rate of acceleration. A better way to say what is meant by "torque wins races" is to say that horsepower developed by higher torque at lower rpm wins races, because that develops useable horsepower at rpm levels likely to be seen on street driven cars.

Bob

You know what I got out of that ...

torque wins races.

[bobscogin]

Originally Posted by Crowley

You know what I got out of that ...

torque wins races.

Just make sure you get the torque meter then, and don't bother with a tach.

Bob

[MajorTom]

Originally Posted by Jamestwilliams

Did he say that was through a stock tranny, or were they just testing the rear end through a machine, just wondering because I thought the stock tranny was only rated to about 450lbft of torque.

I believe the transmission in both cars are rated for a lot more than 450lbft. I know GM names their Automatics using a very simple formula.


6= number of gears

L= longitudinal mounting

80= torque capacity minus a zero (meaning 800lbft)

E= electronically controlled

That's for the auto. But I believe the T-56 in the GTO was supposed to be able to handle more than the 4L60e (which would be 600lbft if you're paying attention) in the auto version.

The trans designations is something I learned from training at my auto repair shop.

[Crowley]

In regards to the tranny .. I'm not sure how the 6 speed holds up against the T56, but in my cobra I was making a lot more than 450ftlbs and it seemed to hold up just fine. That being said, I didn't beat it to death and it never had slicks ...

Crowley

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by bobscogin

Just make sure you get the torque meter then, and don't bother with a tach.

Bob

LOL .. definitely know what you mean .... A nice broad torque band is nice as long as you can use put it to the ground. It makes sense that if you are going to make modifications that will increase torque, you should have the proper mods done so you can safely keep it on the ground ... point taken I think one thing that people will find out is that with the IRS in there, it will be easier to keep it to the ground (as long as the half shafts can withstand it ....)

Crowley

[Design1stCode2nd]

Here is something I've been wondering. The 08 M3 is 416hp 290 something tq and weighs 3700 and change and gets 4.1-4.3 0-60 (mag testing so who knows), wouldn't the SS be about 4.3-4.5 just based on power to weight? Or are there lots of other factors at play?

Not that it matters for me as anything under 5 seconds is plenty fast for me.

[rayhawk]

Originally Posted by Design1stCode2nd

Here is something I've been wondering. The 08 M3 is 416hp 290 something tq and weighs 3700 and change and gets 4.1-4.3 0-60 (mag testing so who knows), wouldn't the SS be about 4.3-4.5 just based on power to weight? Or are there lots of other factors at play?

Not that it matters for me as anything under 5 seconds is plenty fast for me.

The new M3 has a redline of somewhere over 8000 rpm, which is how they get to over 400 hp, as hp is proportional to rpm HP=Torque*rpm/5252. So the M3 is more of a race car engine, producing very little hp down low-compared to what we are used to. By using a lot of expensive technology, such as individual throttle bodies-8! that isolate pulses they are able to achieve acceptable street manners with what would otherwise be too aggressive of a camshaft.

There are some obvious tradeoffs in longevity, as a motor that needs to be pushed that high just to really get going will not last like a 6000 rpm motor, in my opinion.

As for your question, gearing also plays a key role as I would be willing to bet the M3 is geared much more aggressively than the Camaro, and even with a tiny 4L v8 still gets only 20mpg on the highway. I think this is why it would be somewhat faster with similar hp and weight, they sacrificed a lot of efficiency and longevity for performance. To each his own I suppose.

[JJ#48Racing]

I hope the 4.6 0-60 for the M6 turns out to be true, but I'll be skeptical of any times until a few production cars are tested.