STS Turbo Install> Pics!

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by OKCwhiteKnight

I don't think it's asking too much for a kit that's tuned and tested before spending 6k+... don't think, from what I've read, anyone here is going to spend 10k

I agree - I would not spend the 10k either. But if you want a perfect kit that is what I have to quote. Get 20 cars together and have them all pre pay 1000 buck and we will do them for less. However I can;t sell a bitch twin turbo kit for 6k. The high dollar turbos are 1k each plus the rest - it won't pen out

[scrming]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

I agree - I would not spend the 10k either. But if you want a perfect kit that is what I have to quote. Get 20 cars together and have them all pre pay 1000 buck and we will do them for less. However I can;t sell a bitch twin turbo kit for 6k. The high dollar turbos are 1k each plus the rest - it won't pen out

So basically you want 20 people to FUND your R&D? So do they get to share in the profits? I mean after all they are investing in your company... And what happens when you can't deliver? Refund?

[Blacc Mamba]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

I agree - I would not spend the 10k either. But if you want a perfect kit that is what I have to quote. Get 20 cars together and have them all pre pay 1000 buck and we will do them for less. However I can;t sell a bitch twin turbo kit for 6k. The high dollar turbos are 1k each plus the rest - it won't pen out

Is this your kit for the ss

[ALLTRBO]

Originally Posted by scrming

So basically you want 20 people to FUND your R&D? So do they get to share in the profits? I mean after all they are investing in your company... And what happens when you can't deliver? Refund?

Nope, he isn't saying that. He's saying he doesn't really want to bother building a V6 turbo kit because it isn't worth it to him, but he would if that's what he got payed to do it. Kind of like someone saying "I won't sell my $20k car, well, unless someone payed me $50k for it or something."
He knows it isn't going to happen, it's more rhetorical.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Blacc Mamba

Is this your kit for the ss

Yes Sir

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

Nope, he isn't saying that. He's saying he doesn't really want to bother building a V6 turbo kit because it isn't worth it to him, but he would if that's what he got payed to do it. Kind of like someone saying "I won't sell my $20k car, well, unless someone payed me $50k for it or something."
He knows it isn't going to happen, it's more rhetorical.

He is right - What I am saying is - we are happy to help but history has shown the V6 guys that are willing to pay the big bucks to go fast are very few and far between. There is very liitle R&D to be done, we know we can make a kit and has for calibration. We know we can calibrate up to 5psi via MAF transfer functions

I don't want to be the bad guy - I just can't work for free -

[PoorMansCamaro]

Granatelli,

So you had 20 SS's give you 1000 before you started working on a turbo for them?

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

Granatelli,

So you had 20 SS's give you 1000 before you started working on a turbo for them?

That's a fair question. The answer is no. We did it as a crap shoot - it was a good bet that we could and would sell enough kits to offer set the up front cost. - We just finished up the first v8 and already we have taken orders for 8 kits. Based on other v8 success we have had with other applications - we will sell 100 kits over the next 12 months

[PoorMansCamaro]

There's probably at least 5 people in this thread alone waiting to slap a turbo on their v6...

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

There's probably at least 5 people in this thread alone waiting to slap a turbo on their v6...

Well then we are 25% there

[Junior]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

There's probably at least 5 people in this thread alone waiting to slap a turbo on their v6...

ME BEING ONE!

[Granatelli]

Happy to help

[ALLTRBO]

Rule of thumb: For every 10 guys on any given forum who say they are going to buy something as soon as it's made, you can only expect 2-4 of them to come through. If you're running a business, you need more of an assurance than that to make it worth the R&D and production risks.

In general, the V8 guys are a much safer group of power junkies upon which to base a business decision like that. It's just how it has always played out. Maybe that'll change now that we have a legitimate performance V6 to play with, but it's still early in the 5thgen game so only time will tell.

All that being said, I'd really like to know what's up with the production status of this STS kit, I think I'll give them a call.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Notice I said this thread, not forum...

[ALLTRBO]

This thread is located squarely within a forum.
It's the same difference, either way.

[PoorMansCamaro]

No, it's not. Every v6 owner that wants turbo hasn't visited this thread, or posted in it.

Plus, I don't see the logic in needing 20k dollars to start building a turbo kit. That's just retarded. If all companies did that, there would be very little turbos for anyone.

[ALLTRBO]

:bangdesk:

(I love that smiley, it hurts so good!)

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

No, it's not. Every v6 owner that wants turbo hasn't visited this thread, or posted in it.
Plus, I don't see the logic in needing 20k dollars to start building a turbo kit. That's just retarded. If all companies did that, there would be very little turbos for anyone.

All due respect, you are off base. ALLTRBO hit the nail on the head. Building kits is like fishing. You need to know where the fish are. Big Fish spend big money and little fish spend little money. Rule of Thumb Naturally there are always exceptions.

1985 - We built supercharger kits for the 3.8 and 5.0/5.7 Camaro. 5.7 kits had water injection standard (yes before Cooling Mist and Snow there was Granatelli H20 power systems) and 3.8 kits included huge front mount air to air intercoolers standard. Again no one with 3.8 wanted them

1989 - We built Paxton supercharger kits for the 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7 trucks and 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7 Caprice (early Impala SS) the best selling kits for both cars and trucks were the guys that had the 5.7 engines from factory. We almost couldn't give the 4.3 kits away
1993 - Again we lunched forced induction kits for the ford and Chevy V6 engine families and again NADA

Turbo Tech, Vortech, Paxton, Spearco - they all tried it and they all agreed invest in the big bad v8 and it will pay back faster
No offence guys it is just a fact of life

[Granatelli]

So, why ask for 20k, because to price these kit so yuo will pay for them we need to build about 20 kits upfront

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

So, why ask for 20k, because to price these kit so yuo will pay for them we need to build about 20 kits upfront

So you are saying you need to sell 20 kits just to recoupe the first? I guess I'm just confused...

[ALLTRBO]

Oh, that was the other thing I forgot to say; Granatelli Motorsports has been around for a while. I'd think they know how the game works, or they wouldn't still be around.

Don't get me wrong, I want an 'affordable' LLT turbo kit just the same (not because I couldn't afford an SS, but because I didn't want an SS), it's just that you have to understand these guys are around to make money, this is their job, to put food on the table and whatnot, just the same as we all have our jobs.
They can love doing their job and want to do things for cheap and all, but the economy doesn't work like that. It costs them lots of money to do research and development and a production run of something as complex as a quality built and reliable user-end 'bolt on' turbo kit, and they need a sound return on their investment. If they got $20k put in their laps to git'er done, then they'd have what it takes to get that ROI, because all of the R&D would be paid for so then they could knock them out at a more affordable, quicker pace (but still worry that not enough V6 owners would buy their kits for the long term to make it worth the time (=money)... those few that will buy them will already have bought the first few kits, then they'll come comparatively far and few between).

I don't know how I/we can spell this out any more clearly. I don't have a degree in business or anything, it just all makes logical sense to me.

I still think that this V6 STS kit will prove to be a moderate success if it ever ends up in full production. Some will move 'up' to the V8 instead and some will want even more power with a better weight distribution and a lighter car overall that still gets 30mpg on the highway, and has that addicting turbo KICK and sweet turbo sound. (I'm one)
From the info I've gathered here, I feel that the tune isn't optimized because 6psi is still a bit too much for real world (hot weather) operation. Pulling timing only gets you so far before you kill power (and exhaust valves), but even with DI, an 11.3 cr is a lot to get around WRT detonation control on 93 octane (Stuck with 91? Even harder). In addition, this engine is even more complex with the C-VVT and I think it'd be hard to get that drivability all ironed out with the systems interacting with each other, along with the "torque based" throttle input. Many variables here, and I didn't touch on nearly all of them. There's a lot more than WOT to consider when you want your turbo setup to run as well as the stock car did, in all conditions. That being said, it sounds like they're close, if not there by now.

This is all my speculation, I could be way off base. I just really wish they'd come out with full-control handheld tuners that we could get our hands on to do our own tuning for our own car's individual setup once the base-tune for the kit is established.

God I love this turbo stuff. I think I'm in the wrong field. Well, not that I mind working for NASA or anything, heh, I'd just love to be some kind of systems engineer in turbocharging R&D for automotive applications.

[Giaquinto1989]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

There's probably at least 5 people in this thread alone waiting to slap a turbo on their v6...

make that 6... money is just sitting in my account accumulating interest.... maybe i should put it into some stocks being that its probably going to take years before we see anything.... ?

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

Oh, that was the other thing I forgot to say; Granatelli Motorsports has been around for a while. I'd think they know how the game works, or they wouldn't still be around.

Don't get me wrong, I want an 'affordable' LLT turbo kit just the same (not because I couldn't afford an SS, but because I didn't want an SS), it's just that you have to understand these guys are around to make money, this is their job, to put food on the table and whatnot, just the same as we all have our jobs.
They can love doing their job and want to do things for cheap and all, but the economy doesn't work like that. It costs them lots of money to do research and development and a production run of something as complex as a quality built and reliable user-end 'bolt on' turbo kit, and they need a sound return on their investment. If they got $20k put in their laps to git'er done, then they'd have what it takes to get that ROI, because all of the R&D would be paid for so then they could knock them out at a more affordable, quicker pace (but still worry that not enough V6 owners would buy their kits for the long term to make it worth the time (=money)... those few that will buy them will already have bought the first few kits, then they'll come comparatively far and few between).

I don't know how I/we can spell this out any more clearly. I don't have a degree in business or anything, it just all makes logical sense to me.

I still think that this V6 STS kit will prove to be a moderate success if it ever ends up in full production. Some will move 'up' to the V8 instead and some will want even more power with a better weight distribution and a lighter car overall that still gets 30mpg on the highway, and has that addicting turbo KICK and sweet turbo sound. (I'm one)
From the info I've gathered here, I feel that the tune isn't optimized because 6psi is still a bit too much for real world (hot weather) operation. Pulling timing only gets you so far before you kill power (and exhaust valves), but even with DI, an 11.3 cr is a lot to get around WRT detonation control on 93 octane (Stuck with 91? Even harder). In addition, this engine is even more complex with the C-VVT and I think it'd be hard to get that drivability all ironed out with the systems interacting with each other, along with the "torque based" throttle input. Many variables here, and I didn't touch on nearly all of them. There's a lot more than WOT to consider when you want your turbo setup to run as well as the stock car did, in all conditions. That being said, it sounds like they're close, if not there by now.

This is all my speculation, I could be way off base. I just really wish they'd come out with full-control handheld tuners that we could get our hands on to do our own tuning for our own car's individual setup once the base-tune for the kit is established.

God I love this turbo stuff. I think I'm in the wrong field. Well, not that I mind working for NASA or anything, heh, I'd just love to be some kind of systems engineer in turbocharging R&D for automotive applications.

No, I understand there are risks. And I understand that v6's haven't been the money maker in the past. And I could understand the whole 20k needed for R&D, if that's how this has worked in the past. But I HIGHLY doubt any company gets 20k to build a turbo kit. The money is there in this market, and with the new v6 mustang out to compete with the camaro, I have a good feeling people are going to want to compete with f/i. And again, I know you can't go with gut feelings all the time. My point is, there has to be some give and take. If companies don't want to take the risk to be one of the first to make a complete bolt on turbo kit, that's fine, but don't come on here with a smug attitude about needing 20k up front. Not only is it extreme, but it's also putting 100% of the burden on 20 people because they are giving up $1000 for a company to work on one car for who knows how long. Then there's the possibility that the company can't make a reliable turbo, and then the chance those people never see that money ever again.

And the biggest issue right now is software to tune the v6. I'm not dumb. I know damn well it doesn't cost 20k to build a turbo kit from the ground up. Unless your shop just sucks. Most, if not all build one, to make sure it works the way it should, then make multiple kits to accommidate the public.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Giaquinto1989

make that 6... money is just sitting in my account accumulating interest.... maybe i should put it into some stocks being that its probably going to take years before we see anything.... ?

nevermind

[daveprimo]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

All due respect, you are off base. ALLTRBO hit the nail on the head. Building kits is like fishing. You need to know where the fish are. Big Fish spend big money and little fish spend little money. Rule of Thumb Naturally there are always exceptions.

1985 - We built supercharger kits for the 3.8 and 5.0/5.7 Camaro. 5.7 kits had water injection standard (yes before Cooling Mist and Snow there was Granatelli H20 power systems) and 3.8 kits included huge front mount air to air intercoolers standard. Again no one with 3.8 wanted them

1989 - We built Paxton supercharger kits for the 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7 trucks and 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7 Caprice (early Impala SS) the best selling kits for both cars and trucks were the guys that had the 5.7 engines from factory. We almost couldn't give the 4.3 kits away
1993 - Again we lunched forced induction kits for the ford and Chevy V6 engine families and again NADA

Turbo Tech, Vortech, Paxton, Spearco - they all tried it and they all agreed invest in the big bad v8 and it will pay back faster
No offence guys it is just a fact of life

Yeah but all those v6's were horsecrap... This is a new era were it doesnt take brains to know when the gas goes back up people will be buying the 6's or the gay electric cars or whatever thet are and companies will kick them selves in the ass when they weren't recognized and built. Ask yourself this question, are all those years and cars you said do they even compare to 2010? I mean, this v6 is faster then most v8 mustangs. I dont think people should say just cus you bought a v6 its economical and not worth adding to because if it was as fast as my 1997 camaro than I would have never bought it.... those v6's to these are totally different stories.