Z28, Supercharged or Not?

[syr74]

The car is going to need some kind of forced induction to be both practical and competitive against competitors like the GT500. I'm not saying a naturally aspirated Camaro Z28 couldn't be built to run with a blown competitor, but it would bring new meaning to the phrase 'gas guzzler tax' and it would cost more than a comparably powerful supercharged engine too.

[radz28]

How about a DI SC'd LSA?... THAT - would be cool!!!

[syr74]

Originally Posted by radz282003

How about a DI SC'd LSA?... THAT - would be cool!!!

If it were up to me I would effectively merge the LSA and LS9 engines with the only differences being the supercharger itself and the lack of a dry sump on the LSA models and just slap said revised LSA into the Camaro and CTS-V.

[Savini]

Originally Posted by syr74

If it were up to me I would effectively merge the LSA and LS9 engines with the only differences being the supercharger itself and the lack of a dry sump on the LSA models and just slap said revised LSA into the Camaro and CTS-V.

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

[BustedCrank]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

DI would be worth more than 24 hp on a 6.2L engine ... its worth more than that on 3.6L. At any rate, a DI Z28 should be available at about the same time as a DI SS

Which will proabably be a year after you see DI on the corvette. Which my guess will be in the C7

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by BustedCrank

Which will proabably be a year after you see DI on the corvette. Which my guess will be in the C7

Thats where I'd put my money.

[TheStigsFatAmericanCousin]

Originally Posted by Savini

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

Interesting. I recall those Ti rods (well, the ones in LS7, at least) were like $500 for the set or something like that, but there are a lot of improvements LS9 has over LSA. I'm not going to argue that it's a lot more expensive to hand-build a particular engine vs. another, but it seems the engineering to get that intercooler hat, the hood bulge, and the rest of the validation to get the 100 HP/liter wasn't cheap either; not to mention the failed twin turbo "thermal event" I remembered reading about... I think the cost of the R&D is pretty close to the equal in the difference in the assembly. JMVHO

[syr74]

Originally Posted by Savini

The biggest difference between the two models is cost of production - the LS9 is hand built, whereas the LSA is assembly-line-built. The parts are not the largest differentiator from a production standpoint.

Having been heavily involved with the build of a Camaro with a LSA (Conrad Grunewald/Blu808/Hankook's Formula D Camaro), I can say that it is a fantastic fit for this car and knowing what other engines are available, I would be very suprised to see the Z28 come out with anything else.

I suppose my comment revolves more around the engine itself than the Z28, CTS-V, or ZR1. IMHO, given the fact that the regular production plans for supercharged LS series V8's has been seriously curtailed in the last several years, I just no longer see the point in having both engines in such distinct forms (as it relates to assembly and internals) Once upon a time we were talking about the possibility of heavy duty trucks and large, multiple large, rwd sedans with blown LS series V8's as an option which makes assembly on a production line look plausible and even advantageous. Now that the possibilities are limited to the CTS-V and the possibility of the next Z06 and the rumored Z28, making room on an assembly line hardly seems worth the effort or costs. In my experience t would almost certainly be less expensive for GM to just hand build all the motors than it would be to maintain a genuine production line option for the very limited volume LSA.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by syr74

I suppose my comment revolves more around the engine itself than the Z28, CTS-V, or ZR1. IMHO, given the fact that the regular production plans for supercharged LS series V8's has been seriously curtailed in the last several years, I just no longer see the point in having both engines in such distinct forms (as it relates to assembly and internals) Once upon a time we were talking about the possibility of heavy duty trucks and large, multiple large, rwd sedans with blown LS series V8's as an option which makes assembly on a production line look plausible and even advantageous. Now that the possibilities are limited to the CTS-V and the possibility of the next Z06 and the rumored Z28, making room on an assembly line hardly seems worth the effort or costs. In my experience t would almost certainly be less expensive for GM to just hand build all the motors than it would be to maintain a genuine production line option for the very limited volume LSA.

I'm sorry - so are you saying you are not supporting the hand-built nature of LS9/7/3(GS) or you think they should merge the LS9/LSA together to make one shared enging, or blending both of them together? I think that LS9/7 being hand-built is more for image than anything. It sounds cooler to a car guy to hear that the engine was built by a person and not a computer. With all the torque and angle checks of all the equipment and such, I kinda' think it's not all that necessary to devote manpower/money to. That's not to say I don't like the idea, and that it doesn't sound cool to me. Is the price worth the product though? Is it really necssary? Maybe there are assembly idiosyncrasy that I don't know/understand.

If you ask me if eliminating the LSA shortblock in favor of the LS9 I'd say yes, but it's going to cost a lot more. I think the best bet of making Z28 remotely affordable to regular Camaro-people is going to be LSA, straight out of the CTS-V.

I talk out my butt though

[syr74]

Originally Posted by radz282003

I'm sorry - so are you saying you are not supporting the hand-built nature of LS9/7/3(GS) or you think they should merge the LS9/LSA together to make one shared enging, or blending both of them together?

I think the basic engine designs should be blended together with differences between the two limited to things like lack of a dry sump setup on the LSA and potentially different supercharger applications depending upon application.

Originally Posted by radz282003

I think that LS9/7 being hand-built is more for image than anything. It sounds cooler to a car guy to hear that the engine was built by a person and not a computer. With all the torque and angle checks of all the equipment and such, I kinda' think it's not all that necessary to devote manpower/money to. That's not to say I don't like the idea, and that it doesn't sound cool to me. Is the price worth the product though? Is it really necssary? Maybe there are assembly idiosyncrasy that I don't know/understand.

Actually, my argument is based upon my inclination to doubt that the LSA actually costs GM less to build than the LS9 as an assembly line tends to eliminate costs only on those items produced in relatively high volume. When I worked in the automotive industry we had some low volume items that would normally be assembled on a line or in a cell which were instead manufactured, for lack of a better term, by hand. The manufacturer exploited the cachet of that 'hand assembly' to be sure, but that wasn't why we did it. We did it because it cost less to manufacture small volume items in that manner than it did to rig up an entire production line to build them.

And yes, IMHO if the procedures utilized are sound and the employees well trained hand assembly, with the assistance of high tech equipment, can create a product with a level of quality that easily surpasses that of an assembly line piece, all else being equal. (all else being equal meaning that hand assembly obviously cannot make up for poor development or inferior component parts, etc)

Originally Posted by radz282003

If you ask me if eliminating the LSA shortblock in favor of the LS9 I'd say yes, but it's going to cost a lot more. I think the best bet of making Z28 remotely affordable to regular Camaro-people is going to be LSA, straight out of the CTS-V.

I think LSA is what you'll get, but I likewise think GM could probably do you guys one better.

Originally Posted by radz282003

I talk out my butt though

You can't do that, that's my job.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by syr74

I think the basic engine designs should be blended together with differences between the two limited to things like lack of a dry sump setup on the LSA and potentially different supercharger applications depending upon application.

Actually, my argument is based upon my inclination to doubt that the LSA actually costs GM less to build than the LS9 as an assembly line tends to eliminate costs only on those items produced in relatively high volume. When I worked in the automotive industry we had some low volume items that would normally be assembled on a line or in a cell which were instead manufactured, for lack of a better term, by hand. The manufacturer exploited the cachet of that 'hand assembly' to be sure, but that wasn't why we did it. We did it because it cost less to manufacture small volume items in that manner than it did to rig up an entire production line to build them.

And yes, IMHO if the procedures utilized are sound and the employees well trained hand assembly, with the assistance of high tech equipment, can create a product with a level of quality that easily surpasses that of an assembly line piece, all else being equal. (all else being equal meaning that hand assembly obviously cannot make up for poor development or inferior component parts, etc)

I think LSA is what you'll get, but I likewise think GM could probably do you guys one better.

You can't do that, that's my job.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight. I, obvisously, don't share the same background as you (other parts of the industry) but what you're posting makes sense to a simple person like me. That'd be a shame if you're right though, I'll say that!

Kudos to you

[OldJedi]

Question to all of you much smarter than I, if GM takes the LSA straight out of the CTS-V and drops it into the Camaro (Z28), do they have to spend the time and money to certify the engine again since it was already certified for the Caddy?

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

Question to all of you much smarter than I, if GM takes the LSA straight out of the CTS-V and drops it into the Camaro (Z28), do they have to spend the time and money to certify the engine again since it was already certified for the Caddy?

Yes. Every powertrain combination needs to be certified and validated for each car.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

Yes. Every powertrain combination needs to be certified and validated for each car.

OK thanks, I was hoping that if GM did not have to spend the time and money to re-certify the the LSA for the Z28, it might be an easier choice to use the Caddy engine.

[Savini]

The assembly line vs. hand assembly cost discussion is moot without an inside analysis from GM. Those of you thinking that there's no difference in finished product between an assembly-line engine and a hand built, top marque engine have never had an engine built by hand. Balanced/blueprinted with only the choicest parts not only makes a discernibly sweeter motor, but it puts the ZR1 in the same category as the top of the line Porsches, Ferrari's and Lamborghinis by having a hand-assembled engine. The Camaro will not see this.

Originally Posted by OldJedi

OK thanks, I was hoping that if GM did not have to spend the time and money to re-certify the the LSA for the Z28, it might be an easier choice to use the Caddy engine.

If you're interested in hearing about the swap, here's a video we did with a dyno run and Conrad talking (read: rambling on lol) about what's required ~ straight from the horse's mouth.

[OldJedi]

Thanks for the info about the LSA swap. It was good to hear that the engine fit under the stock hood, not so crazy about having to remove the the wiper tray, especially here in rainy Florida. I am sure that GM will get it figured out before the Z28 is released with hopefully an LSA in the engine compartment and operational wipers.

[Robin Lawrence]

You don't need to cut or remove the wiper tray. Conrad modified his but I modified the intercooler top on my LSA.

GM would need to re design an intercooler top specific to the Camaro.

Robin

[Savini]

Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence

You don't need to cut or remove the wiper tray. Conrad modified his but I modified the intercooler top on my LSA.

GM would need to re design an intercooler top specific to the Camaro.

Robin

Great solution Robin! How much boost are you running? Looks like stock pulley... I'm curious how your air intake temps are at full tilt around the track, and where you have the heat exchanger. Ours never topped 120*F on the dyno but creeped to 150*F at Buttonwillow this weekend (took 1st in class for Redline Time Attack) which caused some detonation even on 110 gas.

Oh, and your wiring looks like it needs Jesus Email me, Jeff at JordanInnovations.com, I can make the same harness I made Conrad.

[Vega]

Nothing has been confirmed, the rumors of the LSA are just that, rumors. One guy somewhere said "Z/28 = Camaro with an LSA rock on!" and it blew up from there and people have taken it as gospel since then. Really there's no official word on the Z/28 so far. Yeah the GT500 is supercharged but the SRT8 is not (granted the SRT8 is underpowered, but dont blame that on N/A blame that on management). Personally im hoping to not see the LSA, im not a big fan of forced induction, id much rather see a naturally aspirated motor in the big Z along with lots of weight loss and less frills and luxury features. I mean in all honesty havent we seen enough supercharged Camaros already? Or am i the only one who feels like we're beating a dead mule here? Why would GM make the same thing SLP, Hennessey, Nickey, etc, have all aleady made when you can get it bigger, badder, less restrictive, and more collectible from any of those aftermarket companies? Along with a full warrenty.

Personally, and this is all personal oppinion, i think GM should either go back over the LS7 and revamp it for release in the Z/28, or else they should drop a new production version of their crate LSX454 in it. With near 600hp and reduced weight to match the GT500 (which is significantly heavier than the GT) the Z/28 would beat out the GT500 easy (especially with the leaps and bounds GM has made to plant the power to the road, a big place Ford's GT500 needs work on) and to add insult to injury it would do it in a naturally aspirated motor, and if anyone wants to get wild they can always supercharge that and make a truely dangerous monster...



Afterthought: The LSX454 actually has very impressive mpg numbers, it doesnt take supercharging to make more efficient use of gasoline. And i believe the Z/28 should have a hand-built engine, we're already looking at a $45k+ car and yeah it should be in league with the BMW, Ferrari, Porsche market, just as the GT500 already is, but that hand-built aspect just adds that little bit more quality to the build, and really it shouldnt be a big deal since the Z/28 (same as the GT500) will not be built in mass quantity but a limited number. Not saying they'll put a cap on the number they build but most people will substitute the power/price ratio of the SS over the Z/28 making the demand lower and allowing that extra price to be put into the details of the Z/28. In fact i think most of the car should be hand-built, it should be the Harley Davidson of GM, something really special, something world-class.

[Supercamaro64]

i think we all want the new Z to have the balls to go head to head with the gt500. to do that, it will need a S/C. if some of us dont like that, well, i think we'll get over it wen the gt500 is left sittin the Zs dust.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by Supercamaro64

i think we all want the new Z to have the balls to go head to head with the gt500. to do that, it will need a S/C. if some of us dont like that, well, i think we'll get over it wen the gt500 is left sittin the Zs dust.

I really doubt an LSX454 crate motor, in the power-level necessary to do well against a GT500, is going to pass any sort of smog certifications... FI is probably the easiest and least expensive way to get there, since we have two engines with the foundations already laid (LS9/LSA).

[OldJedi]

Just to throw a little fuel on this fire. The Edelbrock E-Force uses the same Eaton rotors as the Maggie but in their own designed housing. The housing has a much lower profile, double the intercooler capacity and has 12" runners for increased torque. There is no need to chop the intercooler box of the LSA to fit the wiper tray. If GM has to buy a S/C from someone, why would they not look at buying from Edelbrock if they have to certify the engine for the Camaro anyway?? Marshmallow anyone?

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by OldJedi

If GM has to buy a S/C from someone, why would they not look at buying from Edelbrock if they have to certify the engine for the Camaro anyway?? Marshmallow anyone?

The only problem with that theory...is that they don't buy it from anyone...not the whole system, anyway. The ZR1, and CTS-V manifolds/intercoolers were designed in-house...likely this one will be, too. Here's some Graham Crackers.

[OldJedi]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

The only problem with that theory...is that they don't buy it from anyone...not the whole system, anyway. The ZR1, and CTS-V manifolds/intercoolers were designed in-house...likely this one will be, too. Here's some Graham Crackers.

On paper the Edelbrock S/C seems to have a better design over the maggie for the Camaro because of the lower profile, longer runners and increased intercooler capacity. Until it is released sometime next month and throughly tested by the tuners for for power and longevity we will not know how good or how bad the actual design is. Even if the existing design was developed in house, I would hope that GM took a look at it to see if the E-Force would be a better fit in the Camaro without having to redesign an existing unit. And thanks for the offer, but crackers are a little dry.

[wbt]

LSA is "feeling" par for the course here.