Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Vitesse Motorsports
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Forced Induction - V8


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-21-2010, 08:42 PM   #103
Z_Rocks

 
Z_Rocks's Avatar
 
Drives: everyone crazy...
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaddadMotorsports View Post
Thanks for the kind words.

The problem with a proper blower cam on one of these stock motors with boost is that you'll end up with more hp than these motors can cope with. I can't tell you how many people that call with the intentions of a blower and a cam. My answer is always the same. We might as well build up a motor and go for 800rhwp while we're at it.

Thanks
Mike Haddad
I know exactly what you mean. Been there! One you pass certain threshold, you're in new territory!
Z_Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2010, 09:26 PM   #104
lock

 
lock's Avatar
 
Drives: 11 2SS/RS E-Force Supercharged
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Charlotte
Posts: 814
Congrats. Thanks for sharing.
__________________
11 IOM 2SS/RS E-Force Supercharged. 616 RWHP/578 RWTQ. Click link for my journal!!!


lock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2010, 09:26 PM   #105
oachalon

 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 1SS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Mentor, Ohio
Posts: 926
I wonder how well the edelbrock tune is with just the rotofab cai. I do not have headers or aftermarket exhaust (all stock there). I would like to use the edelbrock tune for a while until i add more and then go get it tuned.
oachalon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 12:04 AM   #106
BlownChevy
 
Drives: 2015 1SS RS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Posts: 770
I noticed that the car has headers and exhaust, the spike in boost I would suspect is the boost backing up in the manifold......Runners are not the end all be all
BlownChevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 01:30 AM   #107
Busy_Boi
SoCal C5 Family Member
 
Busy_Boi's Avatar
 
Drives: RJT 2010 camaro 2SS
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 1,019
Send a message via Yahoo to Busy_Boi
Congrats Slim2SS on your dyno run I must say WOW I did not see that coming. Now I am really wondering what the E-Force will do in the L99 with that same setup now I really can't wait thanks for sharing your results.
__________________

Last edited by Busy_Boi; 04-22-2010 at 02:29 AM.
Busy_Boi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 10:14 AM   #108
HaveBlue
 
HaveBlue's Avatar
 
Drives: CTS/CAMARO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SEMA/PERF INDUSTRY GUY
Posts: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlownChevy View Post
I noticed that the car has headers and exhaust, the spike in boost I would suspect is the boost backing up in the manifold......Runners are not the end all be all
Wow, nice subtle way to slam a competitor with an theory but no facts. I think there is plenty of room in the market for choices.
__________________
"everyone wants to go to heaven. but nobody wants to die" "you gotta pay to play"

SEMA PICTURES-PARTS & CARS
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/sema_2009
HaveBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 10:44 AM   #109
Z_Rocks

 
Z_Rocks's Avatar
 
Drives: everyone crazy...
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaveBlue View Post
Wow, nice subtle way to slam a competitor with an theory but no facts. I think there is plenty of room in the market for choices.
Brian likes to "rub-it-in" But at the end of the day, we (customers) have several good choices!
Z_Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 12:47 PM   #110
HaveBlue
 
HaveBlue's Avatar
 
Drives: CTS/CAMARO
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: SEMA/PERF INDUSTRY GUY
Posts: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z_Rocks View Post
Brian likes to "rub-it-in" But at the end of the day, we (customers) have several good choices!
Well he does have a point. It's just segued to seem as if it's a negative.

The runners are tuned to increase torque, were you drive the car. Just like a normally aspirated motor, if you use a large runner for top end flow you sacrifice bottom end. This design is to optimize flow were the car is driven to keep down parasitic losses, which allows lower boost, which keeps inlet temps lower.

And yes choices and competition are good for everyone. Everyone ups their game,
__________________
"everyone wants to go to heaven. but nobody wants to die" "you gotta pay to play"

SEMA PICTURES-PARTS & CARS
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/sema_2009
HaveBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 01:36 PM   #111
BlownChevy
 
Drives: 2015 1SS RS 1LE
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Simi Valley, CA
Posts: 770
In no way was I trying to be negative, just stating the facts about the exhaust system NOT being a restriction.....

Z is right, the end users do have several different options available now, and that is always a positive for the consumer. In the end, performance, reliability, customer service, and finally cost will play a big part in a products future.

In NO WAY am I knocking ANYONE in my reply, I am just putting information out that I have derived from my testing and experience.

Boost on my friends!
BlownChevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 02:06 PM   #112
HaddadMotorsports
 
HaddadMotorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Inglewood
Posts: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlownChevy View Post
In no way was I trying to be negative, just stating the facts about the exhaust system NOT being a restriction.....

Z is right, the end users do have several different options available now, and that is always a positive for the consumer. In the end, performance, reliability, customer service, and finally cost will play a big part in a products future.

In NO WAY am I knocking ANYONE in my reply, I am just putting information out that I have derived from my testing and experience.

Boost on my friends!
If its worth anything I'll vouch for 95% of anything Blownchevy says about boost. He's been in the positive displacement world for longer than I've been alive. Old man

Thanks
Mike Haddad
HaddadMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 02:38 PM   #113
Z_Rocks

 
Z_Rocks's Avatar
 
Drives: everyone crazy...
Join Date: May 2009
Location: SW Florida
Posts: 1,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaddadMotorsports View Post
If its worth anything I'll vouch for 95% of anything Blownchevy says about boost. He's been in the positive displacement world for longer than I've been alive. Old man

Thanks
Mike Haddad
Well Mikey, maybe you're just still a kid... J/K
Brian is full of knowledge. I've learned so much from him from the days of Corvette Forum or Ls1Tech.
Z_Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 03:19 PM   #114
JM10
Se habla espaņol
 
JM10's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS VR
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arizona/Sonora
Posts: 607
Can someone explain how this work?
Do headers play an important role in these numbers? (due to the design of the runners of the kit)

Someone said: "boost is directly relevant to efficiency" so having a better fuel system (BAP-Twin pumps) will have an effect on the increase of boost at 6500rpm?
Or its just an insurance to protect the engine?

sorry if these are dumb questions........just want to know more about this blower.

JM
__________________
2010 VR 2SS/RS
BMR Suspension Parts
Hendrix HD Axles
DSS Aluminum Shaft
RPM Diff / 3.91 Gears
LPE ZR1 Clutch
Edelbrock E-Force SC / JRE Fuel Upgrade
Livernois 1C cam 570 rwhp/559 rwtq SAE
Best 1/4 time: 11.43
JM10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 04:32 PM   #115
camaro692
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS, G8 GT, HD FLHRX
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Greeley, CO
Posts: 305
I dont agree with Haddad. What he is saying is the cam has no overlap, so boost is spiking. I would think if that were the case it would hold at 9 with spikes to 9.5 or so. Once the manifold is pressureized I dont see how it could go from 6lb to 9lb then finally hold steady at 9lb. The boost graph looks just like one with belt slip. Belt slip also explains why only 6lbs until it stopped slipping then shot up to 9lbs. Only flaw in my theory is why it stopped slipping!
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGP
camaro692 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 05:16 PM   #116
HaddadMotorsports
 
HaddadMotorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Inglewood
Posts: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by JM10 View Post
Can someone explain how this work?
Do headers play an important role in these numbers? (due to the design of the runners of the kit)

Someone said: "boost is directly relevant to efficiency" so having a better fuel system (BAP-Twin pumps) will have an effect on the increase of boost at 6500rpm?
Or its just an insurance to protect the engine?

sorry if these are dumb questions........just want to know more about this blower.

JM
Lets just say your a blower. And you have x amount of flow (cfm)
Now blow through a coffee straw as hard as you can while measuring boost in your mouth. Now grap a slurpee straw and do the same. The boost in your mouth is going to be drastically less with the slurpee straw due to its greater effieciency. Your motor works the exact same way (in principal).

The fuel is irrelevant to this argument. Although I will say this. What ever pressure your put into your intake manifold need to be subtracted from your overall fuel pressure. This is one of the reasons you here for alot of guys upgrading fuel systems. On a relatively stock setup this wont be a factor since are fuel system are fairly impressive in stock trim. If you want to go past 550rwhp than it comes into play.


Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro692 View Post
I dont agree with Haddad. What he is saying is the cam has no overlap, so boost is spiking. I would think if that were the case it would hold at 9 with spikes to 9.5 or so. Once the manifold is pressureized I dont see how it could go from 6lb to 9lb then finally hold steady at 9lb. The boost graph looks just like one with belt slip. Belt slip also explains why only 6lbs until it stopped slipping then shot up to 9lbs. Only flaw in my theory is why it stopped slipping!
I'll try and keep this general. I never mentioned overlap. The point I was trying to make is that every head/cam/exhaust/air intake combo has its cfm limitations, just because you keep cramming boost down its throat doesn't mean its gona take it. When it runs out of what it can take it will back up on itsself resulting in more boost. If you spin this motor to 7k rpm you'll probably pick up another 2lbs of boost because the combo can't utilize it. (you might need new valve train after this experiment.

And there doesn't appear to be any slippage on this particular setup. You would see the boost get real erratic as it got higher in the rpms (where the motor is running out of efficiency causing the blower to work harder.) We have more than once gotten rid of belt slip by adding long tube headers to a car.

Thanks
Mike Haddad
HaddadMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 05:33 PM   #117
camaro692
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS, G8 GT, HD FLHRX
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Greeley, CO
Posts: 305
"I'll try and keep this general. I never mentioned overlap. The point I was trying to make is that every head/cam/exhaust/air intake combo has its cfm limitations, just because you keep cramming boost down its throat doesn't mean its gona take it. When it runs out of what it can take it will back up on itsself resulting in more boost. If you spin this motor to 7k rpm you'll probably pick up another 2lbs of boost because the combo can't utilize it. (you might need new valve train after this experiment."

So what your saying is this 2.3 TVS based kit has enough CFM to max out our stock heads and cam? If that were the case the 2.8 KB and 2.9 Whipple boost graphs would be even worse. And dont forget this is a positive displacement supercharger so the boost it sees at 2000 rpm should be the same at 6000 rpm
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGP
camaro692 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 07:11 PM   #118
Slim2SS
Black Thunder
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: NJ
Posts: 184
I just wanted to let everyone know that I E-Mailed the Dyno Boost graph over to the cheif Edelbrock engineer in charge of the new E-Force super chargers. As soon as he tells me what is going on I will post his reply here for all to read.

Thanks everyone fore all of your feed back I have learned a lot from your posts!!
Slim2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-22-2010, 07:14 PM   #119
HaddadMotorsports
 
HaddadMotorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Inglewood
Posts: 532
Quote:
Originally Posted by camaro692 View Post
So what your saying is this 2.3 TVS based kit has enough CFM to max out our stock heads and cam? YES (along with several other factors) If that were the case (It happens to be)the 2.8 KB and 2.9 Whipple boost graphs would be even worse.That assumption can only be made assuming the flow characteristics of each of these systems is identical (size matters but so do a plethora of other things, i.e rotor design, inlet design and intake runner design) And don't forget this is a positive displacement supercharger so the boost it sees at 2000 rpm should be the same at 6000 rpmI'm very aware that these are positive displacement blowers and are very linear in respect to output of cfm, what you are forgetting is that every gas based motor has a horse power and torque curve to it, and will therefore also correspond inversely with the boost curve of the blower.
Thanks
Mike Haddad
HaddadMotorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sat in Camaro today, some disappointment bobby35ny 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 460 08-01-2009 01:52 PM
MINE WAS DELIVERED TODAY!!! - - - Welcome kit. RallyFever Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions 13 04-18-2009 03:46 PM
Mine was ordered today! SSmoke Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions 1 04-09-2009 02:52 PM
Some are saying that customer order production started TODAY GLBL WMR Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions 70 03-17-2009 01:07 AM
Didn't hear from dealer today, did anyone? Rob53 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 4 02-20-2009 08:16 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.