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Old 04-24-2010, 12:44 PM   #1
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gm's ability to read modified ecm's

Well of course when you keep telling a company that you are stealing from them and there is nothing they can do about it thier going to prove you wrong. I'm sure our website along with many others were adding fuel to the fire. We probably have no one to blame but ourselves.You think there are no GM employees or spy's on these sites just waiting to run back and rat us out.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:59 PM   #2
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I don't think any mention of tuning by Camaro5 or any other community has anything to do with GM checking to see what kind of abuse its cars have taken when it comes to warranty claims. If something changes the way a car runs, then the company offering a warranty on it should protect itself from claims based not on the factory settings but on settings that were tweaked with a higher emphasis on performance than durability. For years, we have discussed tuning, chipping, and otherwise adding power to vehicles without adding parts. The concept of tuning is based on the idea that we can adjust settings to go faster. The cost of these changes appears only when something fails, and that failure is a result of someone other than an engineer doing the modifications.

GM has a right to protect itself from warranty claims when the otherise warranty-covered failure is a result of a non-factory, or aftermarket, adjustment to the way the vehicle operates. If a professional wants to warranty the aftermarket work done on aftermarket cars, that would be great. It would show confidence in aftermarket tunes and components. That being said, none of us should ever expect an OEM to cover non-OEM work or components. It would be reckless, greedy, and stupid to think that GM can take responsibility for non-GM parts and changes to a vehicle.

Now, someone is going to complain that this takes the fun out of tuning. I would disagree. What this really does is put the ball in the tuning community's court. How much do these companies want to stand by their products? Are they willing to offer some sort of warranty on their work or otherwise back their tunes?

Regardless of what happens now, people are going to tune their cars. Now, there's going to be a little less confidence in tuning only because GM won't stand behind it. I would love to see some companies offer some sort of confidence measure that their tunes exceed OEM standards. With the right aftermarket parts, a tuned engine is just as reliable in long-term driving as a factory engine. It is up to our vendors and the aftermarket as a whole to demonstrate this to our members. I look forward to seeing their responses in this thread.
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Old 04-24-2010, 01:08 PM   #3
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Yeah what he said.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
I don't think any mention of tuning by Camaro5 or any other community has anything to do with GM checking to see what kind of abuse its cars have taken when it comes to warranty claims. If something changes the way a car runs, then the company offering a warranty on it should protect itself from claims based not on the factory settings but on settings that were tweaked with a higher emphasis on performance than durability. For years, we have discussed tuning, chipping, and otherwise adding power to vehicles without adding parts. The concept of tuning is based on the idea that we can adjust settings to go faster. The cost of these changes appears only when something fails, and that failure is a result of someone other than an engineer doing the modifications.

GM has a right to protect itself from warranty claims when the otherise warranty-covered failure is a result of a non-factory, or aftermarket, adjustment to the way the vehicle operates. If a professional wants to warranty the aftermarket work done on aftermarket cars, that would be great. It would show confidence in aftermarket tunes and components. That being said, none of us should ever expect an OEM to cover non-OEM work or components. It would be reckless, greedy, and stupid to think that GM can take responsibility for non-GM parts and changes to a vehicle.

Now, someone is going to complain that this takes the fun out of tuning. I would disagree. What this really does is put the ball in the tuning community's court. How much do these companies want to stand by their products? Are they willing to offer some sort of warranty on their work or otherwise back their tunes?

Regardless of what happens now, people are going to tune their cars. Now, there's going to be a little less confidence in tuning only because GM won't stand behind it. I would love to see some companies offer some sort of confidence measure that their tunes exceed OEM standards. With the right aftermarket parts, a tuned engine is just as reliable in long-term driving as a factory engine. It is up to our vendors and the aftermarket as a whole to demonstrate this to our members. I look forward to seeing their responses in this thread.



Now there isn't a question about "will a tune void my powertrain warranty"...GM has put it in writing in very non-evasive terms. You have a powertrain failure...the dealer MUST submit a screenshot...and no tuner is going to "fool" them. If there really is a tune that can't be seen...my guess is they better be willing to back that claim up with a warranty of their own (we know that isn't going to happen) or just quit claiming they are invisible with hopes of "getting by" long enough to make some money on the believers of their advertising.

With the cost of a new engine assembly in the multiple of thousands of dollars (haven't priced a GM assembly in quite some time)...this becomes a very expensive gamble for those that choose to attempt to "get one over on GM" as it sounds as if they have truly decided to actively pursue warranty fraud as a method of controlling warranty costs. Who can blame them...they just paid the feds back their money...and I'm sure they'd rather be profitable vs. being under the government thumb again.

It's simply a matter of whether the public is willing to "pay to play" now versus "who has the best invisible tune" now...
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryTucker View Post


Now there isn't a question about "will a tune void my powertrain warranty"...GM has put it in writing in very non-evasive terms. You have a powertrain failure...the dealer MUST submit a screenshot...and no tuner is going to "fool" them. If there really is a tune that can't be seen...my guess is they better be willing to back that claim up with a warranty of their own (we know that isn't going to happen) or just quit claiming they are invisible with hopes of "getting by" long enough to make some money on the believers of their advertising.

With the cost of a new engine assembly in the multiple of thousands of dollars (haven't priced a GM assembly in quite some time)...this becomes a very expensive gamble for those that choose to attempt to "get one over on GM" as it sounds as if they have truly decided to actively pursue warranty fraud as a method of controlling warranty costs. Who can blame them...they just paid the feds back their money...and I'm sure they'd rather be profitable vs. being under the government thumb again.

It's simply a matter of whether the public is willing to "pay to play" now versus "who has the best invisible tune" now...
To add, even if it isn't a matter of being profitable, think about it from a customer service standpoint. There's going to be someone with a legitimate warranty issue in the service lane at a dealer somewhere. GM should be taking care of that customer first. That's a priority. Some guy with a poor tune who was too amateur to take the time to pick a decent company with which to work should not be wasting the mechanic's time.
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:14 PM   #6
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Did I miss something? Is there a new memo or article or something?
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:21 PM   #7
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Did I miss something? Is there a new memo or article or something?
Check the sticky.
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Old 04-24-2010, 03:43 PM   #8
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Thanks, didn't see the sticky.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:50 PM   #9
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Yep, for a tuning software company to actually think that they can see and have access to all of the tables, PIDS, and bytes of a 3mb tune file that OEM engineers have spent countless ours writing is pretty funny and egotistical.

The Gen IV is a great and durable engine, modify the thing if you want. If you are concerned about it breaking and having to pay the bill, don't mod it. Buy an old muscle car and build a toy and keep the Camaro as a very nice, very fast, daily driver.

If your going to tune, you may as well get a fully customized tune with EFI Live or HP Tuners and get the max out of your setup and a truly real tune.
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:23 AM   #10
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I follow the pay to play creed and remind owners not only of the consequence of modification, but the morality and their responsibility.

But since we are on the subject... the determined and enterprising individuals will quickly see what they need to do to both install the calibration and retain the OEM CVN. I am not going into details nor will I through PM. I am just pointing out that this system is like every other of it's type; not infallible.

Any responsible person understands that if they want to make the kinds of mods that really require tuning that they will likewise BE responsible for the things that happen to the car. The General gave us an excellent platform to start with, it would be unfair to expect him to pay for an engine/trans replacement that is a result of anything done to the car. Those owners with more experience and knowledge and understand that, if something happens, that they will be replacing that engine themselves. Depending on the modifications, it's a calculated risk. It certainly doesn't have to be a large risk, but it's there. If you want a cam and headers then you wager that your engine is going to be solid for it's life and if it's not, you will be replacing it (hopefully with something better). Obviously if this is your only car/ daily driver vs. fair weather toy you will likely look at things differently.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by 69lt1bird View Post
Yep, for a tuning software company to actually think that they can see and have access to all of the tables, PIDS, and bytes of a 3mb tune file that OEM engineers have spent countless ours writing is pretty funny and egotistical.

The Gen IV is a great and durable engine, modify the thing if you want. If you are concerned about it breaking and having to pay the bill, don't mod it. Buy an old muscle car and build a toy and keep the Camaro as a very nice, very fast, daily driver.

If your going to tune, you may as well get a fully customized tune with EFI Live or HP Tuners and get the max out of your setup and a truly real tune.
OK.

Rather than sitting here and openly calling us liars, why has nobody yet gone and checked this with a Tech2????????????
Its not that hard, hell, the diagnostic procedure for checking CVNs has been posted 10000 times.

Read the CVNs first.
Then, flash with the Predator or Trinity.
Then read the CVNs again.
Then, everyone can post up about how they were wrong, and DiabloSport was right, and we can all go about our merry business of making Camaros and other GM vehicles better than they were when they left the assembly line.

Also, you mention some other tuning products...to my knowledge, those products can be seen by the CVN check....
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:00 PM   #12
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But since we are on the subject... the determined and enterprising individuals will quickly see what they need to do to both install the calibration and retain the OEM CVN. I am not going into details nor will I through PM. I am just pointing out that this system is like every other of it's type; not infallible.
This man speaks the truth.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:30 PM   #13
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Not to thread jack, what is the difference in a dyno tune and a "Box tune" Just asking
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:51 PM   #14
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Just get another ECM to mess with and keep your original standing by. The black box will actually pick up the fact that the ECM was changed but most shops won't be smart enough to check. Then again, you can always keep an extra one of those around as well.
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Old 04-26-2010, 03:22 PM   #15
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geez now we have a black box to worry about. What's it going to be next small people hiding in the ECM taking notes!
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:32 PM   #16
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geez now we have a black box to worry about. What's it going to be next small people hiding in the ECM taking notes!
They prefer the term "little people" and they are already there listening in on your OnStar system...
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:38 PM   #17
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Can't wait to get mine tuned
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:11 PM   #18
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Also, you mention some other tuning products...to my knowledge, those products can be seen by the CVN check....
The other tuning software company's openly say that they are not out rip off, lie or scam the OEM's. To each their own I guess.

Its not the tech 2 that will find that PCM has been changed it will be the actual software that the calibration engineers use when a PCM gets sent in for a warranty claim or if the send someone out to the dealer. I don't have a dog in this fight, just like people to be realistic and honest.
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Old 04-26-2010, 08:39 PM   #19
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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79922
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Old 04-27-2010, 03:29 AM   #20
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I believe that GM would be reasonable and only deny coverage if the tune was way off spec. Also, wouldn't they only check your ECM if it was a motor-related issue? I've talked to several GM garages and they all have said that it shouldn't be a problem unless you blow up the motor. That's another story that's best left on the Vette Z06 forums ^_^
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:39 AM   #21
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That's a serious accusation.If the man believes he's right I don't think our comments fits.
The sticky at the top has called out all of the tuning software company's to test their products, who has jumped in to try and test the system.

What else do you call it? If the OEM, I don't which one, wants to see what has been done to their computer they can and will find out, it is worth pissing off the customer in most cases, no. If something blatant happens to the powertrain then they will investigate. For the very few that have issues its not worth the hassle.

If they ever decided to lock down the PCM's from any form of tampering while under warranty, they could do that also. Then some company will crak into it and sell the software and this will start all over again.

From HP Tuners, when asked the same question on detection. The biting the hand that feeds you is the point.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19827
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Old 04-27-2010, 08:52 AM   #22
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The sticky at the top has called out all of the tuning software company's to test their products, who has jumped in to try and test the system.

What else do you call it? If the OEM, I don't which one, wants to see what has been done to their computer they can and will find out, it is worth pissing off the customer in most cases, no. If something blatant happens to the powertrain then they will investigate. For the very few that have issues its not worth the hassle.

If they ever decided to lock down the PCM's from any form of tampering while under warranty, they could do that also. Then some company will crak into it and sell the software and this will start all over again.

From HP Tuners, when asked the same question on detection. The biting the hand that feeds you is the point.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19827
There is also this...pretty definitive proof invisibility isn't it what it used to be.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ty-2007-a.html
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:25 AM   #23
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There is also this...pretty definitive proof invisibility isn't it what it used to be.

http://www.cadillacforums.com/forums...ty-2007-a.html
I don't think invisibility has anything to do with the above example. Read more of the threads. His "pot-smoking" friend didn't put the stock tune back in before he took it to the dealer.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:10 AM   #24
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wonder what else his pot smoking friend did, like add a bunch of timing on 87 octane, or leabed the WOT mixture out as far as he could?

How do we know this was not a case of 'GM denied my friends warranty because he did some really stupid stuff with his Predator'?
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:24 AM   #25
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wonder what else his pot smoking friend did, like add a bunch of timing on 87 octane, or leabed the WOT mixture out as far as he could?

How do we know this was not a case of 'GM denied my friends warranty because he did some really stupid stuff with his Predator'?
Does it really matter? The point is that an aftermarket tune resulted in warranty claim denial. Nobody disputes that your product can be used in a manner outside of its intent that will be damaging to a drivetrain...just like a hunting rifle can be used to kill a person.

In no shape or form have I ever claimed your product was inferior. I've just had a problem with the "scam GM" mindset that some people seem to have developed. If an owner of a car can't afford the risks involved with modifying...they should rethink their decisions.

I'm sure you make a good quality product like other tuners do...if you didn't it would be all over these boards very quickly.
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