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Old 04-24-2010, 09:55 PM   #1
68RSZ
 
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The More I know the less I understand

I am trying to get some upgrading done before I do my first road course track day on May 8th. The more I read in the forums about upgrading the more confused I get. One thread says one thing and the next says the opposite, and the third says you will damage one component by adding or not upgrading another.

Here's the deal I've got $1,000.00 for suspension and brake parts to get my SS2 LS3 ready for the track. The vehicle is my daily driver also so whatever is done must work on the street and track. The following accurately depicts my street driving style.

Any owners who have added parts and have some seat time with the mods and are willing to share what works would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by 68RSZ; 04-24-2010 at 10:14 PM. Reason: track description
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:58 PM   #2
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Depends on what kind of track you are driving... Drag Strip, Autocross???
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:14 PM   #3
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Edited - Road course
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:18 PM   #4
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Depends on what kind of track you are driving... Drag Strip, Autocross???
This. However, a lower stance (springs) is always going to be the first step. After that is when you really need to tailor it.
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Old 04-24-2010, 10:27 PM   #5
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I can't give you a ton of first hand experience from the seat of a Camaro, but i can give you a lot of first hand experience behind an Australian Designed Rear Drive V8, that does just what you want to.

I drive my GTO about 20k a year, and i drive it hard. It sees the road course as often as i can get there. A GTO in stock form on a road course can be a bit daunting, but with a bit of help you can make it be very effective.

1st, Lower the CG (Center of Gravity) with higher rate lowering springs.
2nd, brake pads, brake pads, brake pads.
3rd, Radius Rod Bushing and Rear Cradle Bushings (or inserts)
4th, Alignment setup for a road course
5th, get more money.
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Old 04-24-2010, 11:53 PM   #6
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for a a grand go get a set a of lowering springs and sway bars. without adding to your budget there not a lot more you can do. i went with the kit from dse and couldn't be happier but there are many options as far as springs and sways go so you have to do a little research
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Old 04-25-2010, 01:01 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68RSZ View Post
I am trying to get some upgrading done before I do my first road course track day on May 8th. The more I read in the forums about upgrading the more confused I get. One thread says one thing and the next says the opposite, and the third says you will damage one component by adding or not upgrading another.

Here's the deal I've got $1,000.00 for suspension and brake parts to get my SS2 LS3 ready for the track. The vehicle is my daily driver also so whatever is done must work on the street and track. The following accurately depicts my street driving style.

Any owners who have added parts and have some seat time with the mods and are willing to share what works would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
I am asked 25-50 times a day, literally what should I do about improving the handling. You gave 2 of the critical bits of info out of many that I normally ask. You will be road racing, and you gave a budget. With that, I can help you.

First of all for Brembos, I think the best brake pads for the track only are
cobalt friction brake pad. You do not want to use them for the street. So lets assume they are $150. That will leave you$850.

This is what I would do if you can fudge a little:
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
CAMAROSOLUTIONB 27MM FR. & REAR BARS WITH 4 ADJUSTABLE ENDLINKS Larger HD end links require enlarging mounting holes. $599.99 $419.99
Sub Total $969.23
shipping $87.23
Grand Total $1,056.46

If you cannot fudge, well maybe jusgt a little, then this is what I would do:

220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
sub total for coils plus shipping. $402.47
EP1200 Zeta II Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit 255.88
PDUSA5420 ZETA REAR CAMBER AND TOE ALIGNMENT KIT 204.96

Grand total including shipping $904.79

So the above will firm up your rear subframe, and the rear alignment kit will get you to a specific alignment spec that I can assist you with. So is $54 over budget OK with you?

Any questions?

mike
dms

Last edited by Info@PeddersUSA.com; 04-25-2010 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 04-25-2010, 09:12 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dms View Post
I am asked 25-50 times a day, literally what should I do about improving the handling. You gave 2 of the critical bits of info out of many that I normally ask. You will be road racing, and you gave a budget. With that, I can help you.

First of all for Brembos, I think the best brake pads for the track only are
cobalt friction brake pad. You do not want to use them for the street. So lets assume they are $150. That will leave you$850.

This is what I would do if you can fudge a little:
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31 $55.38
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31 $55.38
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31 $55.38
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31 $55.38
CAMAROSOLUTIONB 27MM FR. & REAR BARS WITH 4 ADJUSTABLE ENDLINKS Larger HD end links require enlarging mounting holes. $599.99 $419.99
Sub Total $969.23
shipping $87.23
Grand Total $1,056.46

If you cannot fudge, well maybe jusgt a little, then this is what I would do:

220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220032 "Camaro 2009 Front drop Coils & Ride Height with 20"" Wheels at 657mm
" $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
220033 Camaro 2009 Rear Drop Coils & Ride Height with 20" Wheels at 660mm $92.31
sub total for coils plus shipping. $402.47
EP1200 Zeta II Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit 255.88
PDUSA5420 ZETA REAR CAMBER AND TOE ALIGNMENT KIT 204.96

Grand total including shipping $904.79

So the above will firm up your rear subframe, and the rear alignment kit will get you to a specific alignment spec that I can assist you with. So is $54 over budget OK with you?

Any questions?

mike
dms

Mike,

I do appreciate the response and the info, however as my initial post stated this is my daily driver. It does about 60 miles a day round trip to work. If you could let me know which pads will work best on the street and give me good track use. Some people say ceramic, others state that they will chew up the rotors. I have also read that without doing the differential mount bushings the flex will weaken the connector welds. I know that you can't believe everything you read, but I hate to spend hard earned money on something that I should have listened to the thread and not done.

Thanks
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Old 04-25-2010, 10:48 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 68RSZ View Post
Mike,

I do appreciate the response and the info, however as my initial post stated this is my daily driver. It does about 60 miles a day round trip to work. If you could let me know which pads will work best on the street and give me good track use. Some people say ceramic, others state that they will chew up the rotors. I have also read that without doing the differential mount bushings the flex will weaken the connector welds. I know that you can't believe everything you read, but I hate to spend hard earned money on something that I should have listened to the thread and not done.

Thanks
Pete ran the brakes I mentioned thru all the testing that we did on the track, and swapped pads for the street. Swapping pads is easy to do and will lengthen the life of our rotors.

You asked for help, and I told you what was done on the Pedders Camaro. If you do not know the Pedders Camaro, there are videos all over showing it

Best of luck on your decision.

mike
dms
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:10 AM   #10
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OK dms.. changing pads is a PITA for the average Joe... Also, he asked for help, not what was done to the pedders car. I understand you are trying to push your parts but am I adding this up right, almost $400 for lowering springs... WHOA thats insane...

For the weekend autocrosser the brembos are fine, toss on some lowering springs. I went with Eibach for $200 b/c I only wanted 1" lower. Pfadt can be had for $300 and are 1.25". I have toe bars and control arms to help plant the rear end. Poly bushings to take out the spongy feel and I have sways on order. Also, I got a street/track alignment done. about -1 degree on all 4 corners. All in all I have about $1000 or so in the suspension and it handles like its on rails. and yes, I have autocrossed, just not this car... yet.

your #1 improvment is ride/handling is the springs and for auto crossing, the Pirellis are not going to last or be very good. if its a "most weekends" thing, look into some light weight 18" wheels with stickeys. The C5 Z06 wheels work great with some hoosiers but that will blow you budget. Wheel/tire swap...easy, pad swap... not so much!

Good luck!
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:25 AM   #11
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OK dms.. changing pads is a PITA for the average Joe... Also, he asked for help, not what was done to the pedders car. I understand you are trying to push your parts but am I adding this up right, almost $400 for lowering springs... WHOA thats insane...

For the weekend autocrosser the brembos are fine, toss on some lowering springs. I went with Eibach for $200 b/c I only wanted 1" lower. Pfadt can be had for $300 and are 1.25". I have toe bars and control arms to help plant the rear end. Poly bushings to take out the spongy feel and I have sways on order. Also, I got a street/track alignment done. about -1 degree on all 4 corners. All in all I have about $1000 or so in the suspension and it handles like its on rails. and yes, I have autocrossed, just not this car... yet.

your #1 improvment is ride/handling is the springs and for auto crossing, the Pirellis are not going to last or be very good. if its a "most weekends" thing, look into some light weight 18" wheels with stickeys. The C5 Z06 wheels work great with some hoosiers but that will blow you budget. Wheel/tire swap...easy, pad swap... not so much!

Good luck!
The poster specifically asked for brakes. He also mentioned he is road racing and not auto crossing. The brake requirements for the 2 are quite different. We have tested the cobalt pads extensively on the track and they work well. Not, however a good street pad, since they do not get hot enough. Running combo pads may be too harsh for the street, create tons of noise, and premature wear on the rotors. So long term, you are better off putting a pad on that is aggressive for the track . Running OE pads on the open track will be ok for 1 or 2 laps, if driven aggressively,


The systems I gave him will give him much improvement on the track over OE, plus will be totally streetable. The only help would be the alignment front and rear, and that will take about 2-3 minute conversation

thanks
mike
dms
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Old 04-25-2010, 11:37 AM   #12
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#1 on your list should be performance brake pads.

Front pads are a 15 minute job with the correct tools.
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Old 04-26-2010, 02:17 PM   #13
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Daily driver with occasional track days and you're just starting out?

I would do a swaybar and spring set and a good set of pads all around, and I would also recommend good brake fluid and SS lines while you're at it.

Those mods will keep your ride civil for the streets but give you a really nice upgrade in handling and needed braking for a trackday. In the future you can start looking at new sport shocks, links bushings etc.

Feel free to PM us and we can help you out with your decision/purchase further
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:32 PM   #14
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You are getting great advice here. These are the low hanging fruit, best bang-for-the buck bits for a Camaro that will see track time.

Sub-frame bush inserts EP1200
Radius Bush inserts EP6579
Cobalt Friction Pads -- They do a remarkable job with OE rotors and calipers. Your OE pads will hold up on the track. They will not fall apart or do anything bad. They just aren't as good as the Cobalt Friction pads on a road course which is no surprise because they are a full race pad. You can switch back and forth for street and track use.

GM came to Pedders when they were doing the prototype Grand Am Challenge car that was shown at SEMA 2008 to make a set of urethane radius bushes to replace the hydraulically filled OE bushes. Fluid filled bushes are just not the ideal design for the track. While working with GM we came up with the idea for a snubber to allow a Camaro owner to retain their OE bushes, but firm them up for track use. This was a great suggestion from a GM engineer and one that GM had no interest in for their own use, so we moved ahead and created them.

The subframe bush inserts are required to calm down the sub-frame under extreme conditions such as hard cornering over uneven pavement, hard cornering while acceleration through a turn over less than perfect pavement and so on because a shift in the subframe creates rear end step out. Fill in the OE NVH voids and you are good to go.

A few more notes before you head out to the track.

1. Change out all you fluids with top grade synthetics so they are track ready from brakes to differential. Yeah I know it is a relatively new car, but oil is cheap when compared to a failure.

2. Get your alignment checked.

3. Invest in a really good tire gauge. Watch your tire pressures. They will climb rapidly with track use. With street tires, 33 to 35 pounds cold should be a good place to start. When you come off th track, depending how hard you are driving, your pressures will be some where in the low 40s. Run three laps and come in to check them the first time out. Then you will know.

4. Buy the BEST helmet you can possibly afford. I have never met a racer who had an on track incident that screamed out when headed for the wall -- WOW am I glad I bough the cheapest brain bucket I could find. Your head is more valuable than any suspension parts we sell.

The Camaro did well, 100% bone stock at the Nurburing in the hands of a high quality driver. Most of us are not as smooth as the top tier professionals so we are harder on a car. With my level of driving skill, the better the car the better I drive. Put a top tier driver like Chris Brannon is a POS and he'll beat me around the track I have seen Chris run his Prius against really good track cars with very ordinary drivers. He beat some, but SHOCKED them all.

Were I you, I would get the inserts and follow the #1 rule for a first time track event. Go faster, by slowing down. The more you push the car, the lower you will be until you are used t the car and the track. You'll do well at the track event and have a daily driver you will enjoy more than you Camaro as it sits today.
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Old 04-26-2010, 11:35 PM   #15
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JusticePete,

My package came with the EP6577 bushes, EP1200 cradle inserts, and EP1167 diff mounts. I will not be racing the car, but bought the XA Extreme Street II+ based on value back in Dec. I know this is subjective, but for mainly street driving, should I consider the radius rod inserts over the EP6577 bushes?

Is NVH dramatically increased between the inserts vs the bushings? I already have 20x10 and 20x11.5 wheels and a semi-loud 3" cat-back. Do you think the bushings will transmit a lot more noticable noise/vibration to the front suspension/steering over the inserts? If so, I don't mind downgrading to the inserts since I don't plan to take the car on a road course. I merely wanted the coil-overs for drop and swaybar to help with body roll.

What's the difference between EP6579 & EP6578?

Thx.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:09 AM   #16
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JusticePete,

My package came with the EP6577 bushes, EP1200 cradle inserts, and EP1167 diff mounts. I will not be racing the car, but bought the XA Extreme Street II+ based on value back in Dec. I know this is subjective, but for mainly street driving, should I consider the radius rod inserts over the EP6577 bushes?

Is NVH dramatically increased between the inserts vs the bushings? I already have 20x10 and 20x11.5 wheels and a semi-loud 3" cat-back. Do you think the bushings will transmit a lot more noticeable noise/vibration to the front suspension/steering over the inserts? If so, I don't mind downgrading to the inserts since I don't plan to take the car on a road course. I merely wanted the coil-overs for drop and swaybar to help with body roll.

What's the difference between EP6579 & EP6578?

Thx.
With a cat-back, you will never hear a difference. Unless you are concerned about pressing the old bushes out and pressing the new bushes in, you are good to go.
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Old 04-27-2010, 02:58 AM   #17
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JusticePete,

My package came with the EP6577 bushes, EP1200 cradle inserts, and EP1167 diff mounts. I will not be racing the car, but bought the XA Extreme Street II+ based on value back in Dec. I know this is subjective, but for mainly street driving, should I consider the radius rod inserts over the EP6577 bushes?

Is NVH dramatically increased between the inserts vs the bushings? I already have 20x10 and 20x11.5 wheels and a semi-loud 3" cat-back. Do you think the bushings will transmit a lot more noticable noise/vibration to the front suspension/steering over the inserts? If so, I don't mind downgrading to the inserts since I don't plan to take the car on a road course. I merely wanted the coil-overs for drop and swaybar to help with body roll.

What's the difference between EP6579 & EP6578?

Thx.
NVH or other noises have not been a issue at all with the front radius rod bushings or inserts. You already have the front bushing, so I would use it. It is a first class bushing for sure

Both the EP6578 and EP6579 are front radius rod bushing inserts. the EP6579 is a lot more aggressive.

If you need advise on the swapping of the front radius rod bushing, contact me and I can discuss your concerns.

thanks
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dms
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Old 04-27-2010, 05:04 AM   #18
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i like the new sig pic!
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Old 04-27-2010, 07:34 AM   #19
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When I read the title...I thought you were talking about women!
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:40 AM   #20
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changing pads is a PITA for the average Joe...
What makes you think the "weekend autocrosser" is an average Joe?

If a 15 minute job for an afternoon of racing is all it takes to maintain streetablility, I think that's a pretty damn good compromise.

DMS provided a solution and a reasonable one at that. Be happy knowledgable people are willing to help...
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:05 AM   #21
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Weekend racing is a little understood activity to those who have not done been involved. That is one reason why we struggle to get more people out to autocross and road course events. At higher level weekend warrior racing using a daily driver on the track there are hours of pre and post track work to be done. What is routine, what is fun to a veteran autocross or road course veteran is a whole lot of work to an outsider. Swapping pads out is pretty minimal. Once people get a couple of events under thier belts, they get in the swing of things.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:38 AM   #22
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As far as tire pressure is concerned you can run nitrogen in them and they willnot change, alot of nascar teams do this plus heavily used in the aviation field for thermal expansion. An there is some oil changing places that service.
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Old 04-27-2010, 01:40 PM   #23
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As far as tire pressure is concerned you can run nitrogen in them and they willnot change, alot of nascar teams do this plus heavily used in the aviation field for thermal expansion. An there is some oil changing places that service.
You are right, but changing tire pressures at the track generally means using compressed air. You can be more prepared and come with a supply of nitrogen and then you have the best of both.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:38 PM   #24
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Since we are discussing tire pressure, how much should I bump them up on the track. 45lbs cold?
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:21 AM   #25
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Since we are discussing tire pressure, how much should I bump them up on the track. 45lbs cold?
For a road course we start street tires cold at 33 - 35 pounds. For autocross you will get a wide range of suggestions. Starting at 38 and feeling your way through the range for your car setup would be a reasonable starting point.
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