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Old 04-26-2010, 12:38 PM   #1
eckerj
 
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Frustrated with GM & Dealers' Service

Hello,

Thought I would vent a bit here on the forums.

I own a 2LT that has a number of problems. I just got back from a
dealer's service department this morning. The end result is that
they will not service anything that they cannot verify.

Allow me to explain some of the problems:

1) After work last Friday, I begin my commute home and hop onto
the expressway. I'm cruising down the road and glance down at my
analog speedo to find it reading 140mph. Holy Smoke! I quickly check
the digital readout and find I'm at 70mph. I get off the expressway and
find a secluded spot, stop, turn off the engine and find the needle stuck
at 60mph. I turn it off and on again a few more times and it finally
settled in, stuck at 20mph. I drove home, let the car sit in the shade
a few hours, started the car and it's functioning normally.

I did read a few posts here about how the needles can be put on a bit
too firmly and with sufficient heat, they begin to stick.

2) At the end of summer last year, as I'm returning from a trip from
Atlanta to Dallas, my air conditioning unit froze up. It was in the 90's
and the air output of the AC went almost to zero. I then turned the AC
off and turned the thermostat over to the red. A few moments later,
water started spitting out the center vents. After a few more minutes
of getting rained on inside my car, I decided to try the AC and it started
working again. It worked like that for a little while and then froze up
again.

3) Also on my trips back and forth to Atlanta, I heard some sort of rattle
coming from the climate control system. Sounds like something is loose
behind the dash, near the firewall. Nothing that affects the performance
of the car, but definitely annoying.

4) I closely watch the PDIM software update thread and know I'm a few
revs behind. Since I use my iPhone quite a bit and been having reboot
problems with it over the past several months, I thought I'd go in for an
update.

So, I bring my laundry list of issues to the dealer this morning. They tell
me that they cannot address #1 and #2 until they can see the problem in
action. I'm somewhat taken aback, since I thought the speedo problem
would be serious enough to warrant attention. Their position is basically
the problem doesn't exist unless they can verify it.

I decided I didn't want them to even look at the car to try and address
#3 or #4 since the main reason I came in was #1 and #2.

So now I'm stuck with having to hope that my car fails at the same time
as I can make it to a dealership so they can say "Yep, that's a problem."
With my 1 hour commute and most service centers closed shortly after
I get out of work, my chances of reproducing the problem and being able
to show them is slim to none.

Somehow, I feel that if I was still living in Michigan, I would be able to
get these fixed without much hassle.

Does anyone know of a service center in the Dallas area that cares
about their customers?

Frustrated,

-Joe
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:49 PM   #2
esperman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckerj View Post
2) At the end of summer last year, as I'm returning from a trip from
Atlanta to Dallas, my air conditioning unit froze up. It was in the 90's
and the air output of the AC went almost to zero. I then turned the AC
off and turned the thermostat over to the red. A few moments later,
water started spitting out the center vents. After a few more minutes
of getting rained on inside my car, I decided to try the AC and it started
working again. It worked like that for a little while and then froze up
again.
maybe you should have had this looked at ASAP last year? maybe the dealer isn't taking you seriously because of it.
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Old 04-26-2010, 12:58 PM   #3
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Check this thread out. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71421
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:04 PM   #4
eckerj
 
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Not having #2 checked out shouldn't have anything to do with them not
fixing #1.

By the time I was able to bring it to a dealership, the AC problem
wasn't rearing it's ugly head, so I basically would have been in the same
boat.

This attitude that service departments down here exude is pretty
nauseating. Only they know what's wrong, and if they can't see it,
it doesn't exist.

Of course, this is coming from the same region that makes people get
out of their car for an oil change at a quick-lube.
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:06 PM   #5
eckerj
 
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Originally Posted by skuttduck View Post
thanks! I'll give them a call!
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:27 PM   #6
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The A/C system appears to be indicating low pressure. The evaporator temp will go down so low that the heat exchanger will actually collect condensate and it will freeze on the coil. The coil can get so full of ice that it gets blocked and no air goes through it. The air flow will get real cold and then start spitting out water drops before it totaly gets blocked by ice. If you shut it off and wait a bit, the ice will melt and you will be back in business until the ice starts to collect again. This is hard on the system if you keep running it while the coil is iced up so have the refrigerant pressures checked. You may have a leak in the system.

-Mark.
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:33 PM   #7
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Everyone needs to remember that dealerships are franchise-owned operations. GM does not own them and sets basic standards for them to operate. If you don't like the service department, send in your GM survey with low scores. GM will pay them according to their customer service. GM had nothing to do with your poor experience. Find another dealer.
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Old 04-26-2010, 01:53 PM   #8
eckerj
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Everyone needs to remember that dealerships are franchise-owned operations. GM does not own them and sets basic standards for them to operate. If you don't like the service department, send in your GM survey with low scores. GM will pay them according to their customer service. GM had nothing to do with your poor experience. Find another dealer.
It's true that bad experiences at dealerships shouldn't necessarily
reflect bad on the manufacturer. However, the dealer indicated
that the reason they could not fix two of my problems was because
GM instructed them not to repair items that were not verified by
the dealer as broken.

Was this just a line from the dealer? Probably. But it still reflects
poorly on GM.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:08 PM   #9
eckerj
 
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Update:

Just got off the phone with GM Customer Assistance and they said my only options
are:

1) Wait for the speedo and AC to fail and bring it in to the dealership to prove
that the problem exists

-or-

2) Drop it off at the dealership for 2 to 3 days so they can try and replicate the
problem.

Looks like I'm stuck with #1, since I would be the one to pay for a rental car,
and I refuse to pay for a rental in order to have my car fixed.

You want to know what's really sad? I now have to drive around with my AC blasting,
leaving my car sit in the sun, and hope and pray that these things fail on my car
AND that I'll be able to get it into a dealership while it's failing.

All this is completely unacceptable to me. So incredibly stressful. But what can
I do? Not a damn thing.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:15 PM   #10
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Just an FYI. ALL dealers work like that. They can't fix your car no matter what brand unless they can verify that a problem exists. If they choose to fix a complaint going by the customers word, and it's found to not be the problem, they are out that money for whatever time/parts were needed. Nobody's willing to just lose money.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:46 PM   #11
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Well, yes and no about all dealers are like that. I'm in the bunch of people having clutch issue - multiple threads. Took it to my dealer, we drove it, of course, it didn't stick. He said bring it back. I went in today, said the same thing, they looked it over, asked a few questions, I handed him a list of parts that other people have had replaced - NO TSB, mind you - and he is ordering parts today for an install as soon as they come in...

So...it depends on your relationship with your service person...etc...

good luck!
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Old 04-26-2010, 05:33 PM   #12
eckerj
 
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Thanks...

I just can't afford (time and money) to take time off work to bring it
to the dealership so they can diagnose it. In the mean-time, I'll have
to resign myself to the fact that I'm a beta-tester for GM.

Never thought I'd come to the point of wishing things would fail on
my car every time I turn the ignition key. My luck, it'll only fail the day
after it's out of warranty.
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Old 04-26-2010, 06:52 PM   #13
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The speedometer issue could be documented with a picture of your dash with the digital readout on "0" and the analog on anything else. Whip that iPhone out and get it while it is "abnormal".

On the A/C issue. R134A works at much higher pressures than the old R12. Sometimes hot, high humidity conditions will cause it to ice up the evaperator when you least expect it to. More of an ambient temp and humidity issue than a "low charge".
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Old 04-26-2010, 07:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jputer View Post
The speedometer issue could be documented with a picture of your dash with the digital readout on "0" and the analog on anything else. Whip that iPhone out and get it while it is "abnormal".

On the A/C issue. R134A works at much higher pressures than the old R12. Sometimes hot, high humidity conditions will cause it to ice up the evaperator when you least expect it to. More of an ambient temp and humidity issue than a "low charge".
Thanks for the suggestion! I'll definitely do that the next time it happens...
Now I gotta hope for some scorchingly sunny weather...
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:05 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stingr69 View Post
The A/C system appears to be indicating low pressure. The evaporator temp will go down so low that the heat exchanger will actually collect condensate and it will freeze on the coil. The coil can get so full of ice that it gets blocked and no air goes through it. The air flow will get real cold and then start spitting out water drops before it totaly gets blocked by ice. If you shut it off and wait a bit, the ice will melt and you will be back in business until the ice starts to collect again. This is hard on the system if you keep running it while the coil is iced up so have the refrigerant pressures checked. You may have a leak in the system.

-Mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jputer View Post
On the A/C issue. R134A works at much higher pressures than the old R12. Sometimes hot, high humidity conditions will cause it to ice up the evaperator when you least expect it to. More of an ambient temp and humidity issue than a "low charge".
I'd say the answer for the A/C lies in-between these two posts. R134a actually operates at a slightly lower pressure than R12. Generally the pressure a refrigerant operates at is only relative to the saturation temperature of the specific refrigerant, they generally all exhibit the same behavior in different situations relative to saturation temperature (temperature liquid refrigerant begins to boil, with A/C this is always relative to pressure).

The causes for an iced evaporator would be either a low heat load or an undercharged system. Going to generalize a lot here to get the point across, usually for medium temperature applications you're shooting for the temperature of the refrigerant in the evaporator to be around 40*f, more specifically you're looking at the temperature of the refrigerant in the evaporator to be 40*f lower than the temperature of the air coming into it.

When a system is undercharged it will have a lower pressure than it is designed for, and that lower pressure will translate into lower temperature, which can cause the evaporator to ice up (to a point, too low of a charge will not be capable of exchanging heat). If a system designed to have an evaporator temperature of 40*f loses some refrigerant, the lower pressure can reduce the evaporator temperature to below 32*f/freezing, and cause the moisture in the air to freeze on the evaporator. If this were the case you would notice two things- for one due to the reduced amount of refrigerant in the system, there would be a reduced amount of heat that could be transferred, and the A/C would consistently take notably longer to cool the air in the car. Second, once cooled, the evaporator would freeze over on a regular basis. Seeing as how this happened once last summer on a road trip, I doubt it would be the case.

That leaves a low heat load. High temperatures will only prevent an evaporator from freezing over. Humidity can have an effect, in a specific situation. The air passing through the evaporator has a large effect on the condition of the refrigerant inside the A/C system. Warmer air will transfer more heat, causing higher refrigerant temperatures in the evaporator, and vice-versa for colder air. Like stated before, generally the temperature of the refrigerant in the evaporator will be 40* below the temperature of the air passing through it. So if you have 80*f air entering the evaporator, the temperature of refrigerant in the evaporator will be 40*f (once again this is a somewhat reliable generalization). This also means that if you have 70*f air entering the evaporator, the temperature of refrigerant in the evaporator will be 30*f, below freezing.

Now add into the fact that you're driving a 2010 Camaro- the interior is extremely well insulated, and the evaporator is equally as insulated, if not more. You were on a road trip in the summer from Atlanta to Dallas, don't think I'd be too far off to guess if I said you probably had the A/C blasting, with the air on recirculation (that's what I'd do). I'd be willing to bet the temperature of the air in the car was 70*f, if not as low as 65*f, to compensate for radiant heat from the sun. That means the temperature of refrigerant in the evaporator was from 25*f-30*f for at least a couple hours between stops. Add in the extremely high humidity you'll find between Atlanta and Dallas and that transfers into a huge amount of ice freezing on your evaporator.

What happened was most likely the nature of how your A/C system works, and if it only happened on a long road trip means that your car is very well insulated and your A/C is working correctly. The only way to prevent this is to bring warmer air in over the evaporator so the temperature does not go below freezing- turn off recirculation/max A/C to bring in some warmer outside air, or turn the temperature control slightly up to warm up the recirculated air. Another thing to consider is radiant heat from the sun. Radiant heat does not heat air, but it does heat up surfaces inside the car, including your clothes and skin, so sunlight will make you feel like it's warmer than the actual temperature of the air in the car. If you don't have window tint already, putting some on will reduce this effect and allow you to not adjust your A/C as cold and prevent it from icing up.
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:26 AM   #16
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Wow! That's a well thought-out reply! Thank you for taking the time to
generate such a great explanation..

I generally don't use the A/C unless it's absolutely necessary. Do you think
I would have experienced this icing if I had the temp control on Max but
the fan on one of the lowest settings? I seem to remember that I had
forgot that it was on the Max setting (the one that has an additional
click when you turn the temp dial counter-clockwise). I remember also that
the outside temp was hovering around 90 degrees.

If I read your post correctly, in high-humidity, high-temp conditions, the
evaporator can ice over quicker if I have the "recirc" on for extended
periods of time? In that case, it would be an easy fix. :-) Since as you say
the car is extremely well insulated, I can put it on recirc until it cools
off, then turn the recirc off. And keep it off "Max" :-)

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
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Old 04-27-2010, 09:57 AM   #17
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Of course, this is coming from the same region that makes people get out of their car for an oil change at a quick-lube.
Having lived in Indiana, Wisconsin, Kansas and Arizona, I have never been to a quick lube where I get to stay in my car while they do the oil change.
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Old 04-27-2010, 11:31 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckerj View Post
Wow! That's a well thought-out reply! Thank you for taking the time to
generate such a great explanation..

If I read your post correctly, in high-humidity, high-temp conditions, the
evaporator can ice over quicker if I have the "recirc" on for extended
periods of time? In that case, it would be an easy fix. :-) Since as you say
the car is extremely well insulated, I can put it on recirc until it cools
off, then turn the recirc off. And keep it off "Max" :-)

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply!
The evaporator icing over is a result of not having enough heat load to keep the temperature of the refridgerant above freezing. So having the fan on low would deffinatly contibute to this- the less air flowing the less heat to transfer. A high temperature outside the car would keep the temperature of the refridgerant higher, the reason it freezes over is because the temperature inside the car is too low, so your evaporator would be even more prone to freezing if the temperature is lower outside. The more humidity the more moisture in the air to freeze on the evaporator, whether the ambient temp is high or low.

My advice is exactly what you said, turn the recirculation off on longer trips, try and find a happy medium to where you are comfortable, but not cycling the exact same cold air over the evaporator the whole time. And if you aren't going to be in the car for anytime longer than a couple hours I wouldn't even worry about it.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:16 PM   #19
eckerj
 
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Having lived in Indiana, Wisconsin, Kansas and Arizona, I have never been to a quick lube where I get to stay in my car while they do the oil change.


It must be a Michigan thing.... I grew up in Flint, lived in Detroit suburbs
for a while and was never asked to step out of the car and wait in a room
while someone changed my oil. I really miss the way they did things
up there. While still in the car, they'd change the oil, ask you to start it
back up, and show you the oil level before you paid.
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eckerj View Post
Hello,

Thought I would vent a bit here on the forums.

I own a 2LT that has a number of problems. I just got back from a
dealer's service department this morning. The end result is that
they will not service anything that they cannot verify.

Allow me to explain some of the problems:

1) After work last Friday, I begin my commute home and hop onto
the expressway. I'm cruising down the road and glance down at my
analog speedo to find it reading 140mph. Holy Smoke! I quickly check
the digital readout and find I'm at 70mph. I get off the expressway and
find a secluded spot, stop, turn off the engine and find the needle stuck
at 60mph.
I turn it off and on again a few more times and it finally
settled in, stuck at 20mph. I drove home, let the car sit in the shade
a few hours, started the car and it's functioning normally.

I did read a few posts here about how the needles can be put on a bit
too firmly and with sufficient heat, they begin to stick.

Frustrated,

-Joe

There's a TSB that came out in June of 2009 for problem #1

#09-08-49-011: Instrument Panel Cluster (IPC) Needle(s) Stick Intermittently (Replace Instrument Panel Cluster) - (Jun 15, 2009)

I would ask why would it need to be "verified" if it's already a known problem? The TSB says it's "intermittent".
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Old 04-27-2010, 12:44 PM   #21
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I am now a Chevy salesperson but used to be a Service Manager for a motorcycle dealership and the theory is the exact same as cars. I know it is frustrating to be told that a dealer can't fix something that they can't see wrong, but you have to see it from the dealer's side also. If you went to work every single day and were asked to go on a wild goose chase for free because the customer and the manufacturer both would not be willing to pay for your work, then you would have a problem with that, right? Let's say that what you experienced one time a week before, and never re-occured, happened to be a fluke mishap. Then how do you think that tech that took your entire dash apart to get to your gauges to ensure your needle wasn't over-tightened, will get paid when GM says there wasn't anything wrong with your gauge.

Trust me, I know how you feel. I took my Charger to Florida on vacation and the car decided it just wasn't going to start for over two and a half hours at the hotel when I was trying to leave. Dodge sent a truck out to pick up the car that still would not crank or do anything. Once it made it to the dealer it started right up. They kept it overnight to ensure it would start the next morning again, while I paid for another night at the hotel, and it did so they made me come pick it up. They couldn't duplicate the problem and they weren't willing to run a bunch of time consuming tests on a car that ran just fine. I didn't like it, but the car never ever acted up again in the entire 33000 miles that I owned it. That happened at 8200 miles. Like I said, it may have been a freak mishap and it won't happen again. Unfortunately these cars are mechanical and that happens sometimes. But a dealer won't rip into a car to fix a problem they can't prove it has. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have been willing to pay for the hours of work when they found out that there wasn't anything wrong would you?
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