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Old 10-23-2008, 06:29 PM   #51
Wm Holden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JiXeR'z DoDgE/FoRd KiLLeR View Post
Just as I said earlier Guys. Either way...I'm really leaning towards a procharger since I'll be driving my Camaro 4-5 days a week. IMO they're more streetable than roots/twin screws.
ok...edumacate me plz.....I don't get the enlarged part of the statement...
because frankly...that's backwards.


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Old 10-23-2008, 09:58 PM   #52
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Just a quick question for you all:

Does anybody think Whipple will make a twin screw blower for the Camaro? I don't want a roots blower like the Maggy because they are not nearly as efficient. If not, then its going to be turbo or a centri.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:48 PM   #53
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Wudnt a turbo be better HP gain than a SC? I though SC suck about 35% poer and prolly give out 40% back. ie a small overall gain. Please correct me if Im wrong. Wudnt $$ be better spent on a turbo which would give better gains/$???
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:31 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekt View Post
Just a quick question for you all:

Does anybody think Whipple will make a twin screw blower for the Camaro? I don't want a roots blower like the Maggy because they are not nearly as efficient. If not, then its going to be turbo or a centri.
the TVS maggie's will sink a whipple hands down.
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Old 10-24-2008, 08:59 AM   #55
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I am going to stuff this one in mine at some point.

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Old 10-24-2008, 09:49 AM   #56
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the TVS maggie's will sink a whipple hands down.
But I thought they were still a roots blower, and not a true twin screw?
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:51 AM   #57
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But I thought they were still a roots blower, and not a true twin screw?
the new ones are High helixed twin screws
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:56 AM   #58
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All of these aftermarket "under the hood" blowers are twin screw. Except centrifugal blowers.

I think where the confusion comes in is Whipple claims they are "roots style" blowers but in reality all twin screw are, exactly that, "roots style" blowers.

The difference is a Roots blower's impeller lobes are not twisted like they are in a twin screw, hence the name twin screw. And roots blower are much bigger and capable of producing much more boost.

Looking for some pics... brb

This is a true Roots blower taken apart. The impellers or in the upper right hand corner of the pic. Notice they aren't twisted around the center axis.



This is a twin screw. You can see how the impellers are twisted.



At least that is my understanding of the major difference.

Edit:

Spike???
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Old 10-24-2008, 10:06 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by gtahvit View Post
All of these aftermarket "under the hood" blowers are twin screw. Except cetrifugal blowers.

I think where the confustion comes in is Whipple claims they are "roots style" blowers but in reality all twin screw are, exactly that, "roots style blowers.

the difference is a Roots blower's impeller lobes are not twisted like they are in a twin screw, hence the name twin screw. And roots blower are much bigger and capable of producing much more boost.

Looking for some pics... brb
Ok, this makes sense as well.

I just read on Whipple's homepage that it compresses air between the lobes and housing, where I thought it compresses air between the lobes.

I posted before this, but I deleted the message because I felt that it was inaccurate.
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Old 10-24-2008, 10:13 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Rekt View Post
Ok, this makes sense as well.

I just read on Whipple's homepage that it compresses air between the lobes and housing, where I thought it compresses air between the lobes.

I posted before this, but I deleted the message because I felt that it was inaccurate.
My understanding is they all compress air between the housing and the lobes. Obviously the lobes are what draw the air in to the housing at a greater volume yet less density then it pushes it into the engines intake.. You need both the housing and the impellers to do this. roots, screw, turbo, centirfugal or otherwise.

My apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.
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Old 10-24-2008, 10:16 AM   #61
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My understanding is they all compress air between the housing and the lobes. Obviously the lobes are what draw the air in to the housing at a greater volume yet less density then it pushes it into the engines intake.. You need both the housing and the impellers to do this. roots, screw, turbo, centirfugal or otherwise.

My apologies if I'm telling you stuff you already know.
Don't be sorry. I appreciate the clarification. I just got a little confused about the exact operating principles.
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:14 AM   #62
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the new ones are High helixed twin screws
That's good to know! After dealing with a "Heaton" roots-style supercharger for a number of years, and seeing the crazy power gains and efficiency of a twin screw, I'm sold on 'em.

This hasn't been asked in this post, but what would the max, safe boost be on a non-forged, high-compression engine like the Camaro's? Maybe 6-8psi? What would that give you in horsepower? 100 or so extra ponies? I'm in the dark here, so maybe Wm Holden or others can fill me in.

My point is that it's gonna be hard to justify a $6000 (at least) supercharger on a stock motor when a hot cam will get you maybe 50hp for under a grand installed. If I'm gonna do this, I want to do it right - which means forged internals and lower compression slugs, so I can safely run LOTS of boost!
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:21 AM   #63
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My personal opinion is, for the money you will spend, I'd go with bolt on mods like Cam, intake, exhauts, tune on the LS3. You will spend much more money on a blower but be very boost limited due to the high CR. so in the end you can get over 500HP with out it.

Not to say that blowers are bad. In fact I'm gonna do everything i can to get one. But, you don't really get the max available performance from a blower unless you are gonna lower the CR.

my .02
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:28 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtahvit View Post
My personal opinion is, for the money you will spend, I'd go with bolt on mods like Cam, intake, exhauts, tune on the LS3. You will spend much more money on a blower but be very boost limited due to the high CR. so in the end you can get over 500HP with out it.

Not to say that blowers are bad. In fact I'm gonna do everything i can to get one. But, you don't really get the max available performance from a blower unless you are gonna lower the CR.

my .02
im lost, what engine are we talking about? 10.7 isnt that bad for a Supercharged engine. holden HSV cars and corvettes get 600-700hp without tearing the engine down.


that said i am going to be doing a cam, exhaust, intake on mine to drive for a while before i get a twin turbo for my camaro.
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Old 10-24-2008, 12:38 PM   #65
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im lost, what engine are we talking about? 10.7 isnt that bad for a Supercharged engine. holden HSV cars and corvettes get 600-700hp without tearing the engine down.


that said i am going to be doing a cam, exhaust, intake on mine to drive for a while before i get a twin turbo for my camaro.
I'm really saying that forced induction is a great way to get the max power out of your engine. However, You will not get Max productivity out of a blower when you put it on a High CR engine.

Man, I don't really want to start this argument again.... Oh well here goes.

Hence the reason the LS9 gets 630+ HP with a CR in the low 9's, while a LS7 gets 500+ HP with a CR in the low 11's

And yes, there are a ton of other factors that contribute. I'm just making a generalization.

So, without saying FI is better than NA, or vice verse, I'm really saying you don't get the most out of a blower/turbo unless you have a lower CR.

Does that make sense or did I just confuse the issue?
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:05 PM   #66
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I have to agree with gtahvit on the compression ratio issue. The LS3 is on the higher side of the range therefore limiting the amount of boost you can use with pump gas before detonation occurs.
You asked how much boot equates to how much HP. Understanding that normal atmospheric is 14.7 psi, and an engine works like an air pump, the general rule I would follow is that for every 14.7 psi you can add in the form of boost (maintaining the same incoming charge temperature)doubles your horsepower, and does it at relatively the same rpms. (this excludes some variables like the losses needed to drive the forced induction, and ignores that most normally aspired engines don’t achieve 100 volumetric efficiency anyway). Still the rule is a good ball park. So, if you add say half that (i.e. say around 7.5 psi) you are adding like 50% more power, or making a 6 liter motor believe it’s a 9 liter motor. (ever wonder how Wm Holden came up with that comment on his signature). We use intercoolers to bring the temperature back down after compressing it, as air looses density as its heated (not to mention increased chance of detonation) and this must also be factored in. I’m also watching to see what a practical limit for a bone stock engine, and so far I’m leaning towards 6-7 psig. (keep in mind, if you choose your modifications carefully, you can also combine some traditional modifications to a FI engine
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:15 PM   #67
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I have to agree with gtahvit on the compression ratio issue. The LS3 is on the higher side of the range therefore limiting the amount of boost you can use with pump gas before detonation occurs.
You asked how much boot equates to how much HP. Understanding that normal atmospheric is 14.7 psi, and an engine works like an air pump, the general rule I would follow is that for every 14.7 psi you can add in the form of boost (maintaining the same incoming charge temperature)doubles your horsepower, and does it at relatively the same rpms. (this excludes some variables like the losses needed to drive the forced induction, and ignores that most normally aspired engines don’t achieve 100 volumetric efficiency anyway). Still the rule is a good ball park. So, if you add say half that (i.e. say around 7.5 psi) you are adding like 50% more power, or making a 6 liter motor believe it’s a 9 liter motor. (ever wonder how Wm Holden came up with that comment on his signature). We use intercoolers to bring the temperature back down after compressing it, as air looses density as its heated (not to mention increased chance of detonation) and this must also be factored in. I’m also watching to see what a practical limit for a bone stock engine, and so far I’m leaning towards 6-7 psig. (keep in mind, if you choose your modifications carefully, you can also combine some traditional modifications to a FI engine



great post.

Question: In reference to the bold text above, I've heard that you should be careful when choosing a cam for blown applications. Do you think the GMPP Hot cam for the LS3 will be good for FI or not?
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:20 PM   #68
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The Cam in the GTO is stock high lift high duration...and is a nice mate with blower...much better match then we expected...and obviously a GM design (duh)






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Old 10-24-2008, 03:18 PM   #69
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I'm really saying that forced induction is a great way to get the max power out of your engine. However, You will not get Max productivity out of a blower when you put it on a High CR engine.
You nailed it exactly. Which is why I would want to reduce the compression ratio if I ever add a blower.

Wm Holden, thanks for posting your dyno numbers. I have some questions for ya. First, it looks like you are putting down 480 to the wheels, which, in my mind is about 550 crank (considering the typical 15% drivetrain loss). So that's about 150hp gain from stock on 7psi? That's better than I thought! Also, what's with the torque reading? It looks like you are putting down 1,500 ftlbs.
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Old 10-24-2008, 04:13 PM   #70
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You nailed it exactly. Which is why I would want to reduce the compression ratio if I ever add a blower.

Wm Holden, thanks for posting your dyno numbers. I have some questions for ya. First, it looks like you are putting down 480 to the wheels, which, in my mind is about 550 crank (considering the typical 15% drivetrain loss). So that's about 150hp gain from stock on 7psi? That's better than I thought! Also, what's with the torque reading? It looks like you are putting down 1,500 ftlbs.
first...you are welcome

I've been seeing A4's estimated at 20 to 18% DT loss...so 19%x600hp=114
600-114=486rwhp...that's my math for it.
And yes a 50% increase is way more then heads and cam..or whatever really...once I looked at the cost per horse and threw out Nitrous....
F/I was my only choice possible AND PASS SMOG.


PS divide torque numbers by my rear ratio and we see 460 rwtq....
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Old 10-24-2008, 04:41 PM   #71
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I've been seeing A4's estimated at 20 to 18% DT loss...so 19%x600hp=114
Ahh - I missed that you have an auto. Those pesky buggers do tend to suck up a bit more power!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a 19% DT loss, to find your crank hp you would multiply your rwhp by 1.19...so 486 x 1.19 = 578? I suck at math! Regardless, you have a sweet ride!

EDIT: I just talked to an buddy that is an engineer and he set me straight. The formula is: Crank hp=rwhp/(1-DT loss) or, in your case 486/.81 = 600hp! Now I know!

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Old 10-24-2008, 05:08 PM   #72
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great post.

Question: In reference to the bold text above, I've heard that you should be careful when choosing a cam for blown applications. Do you think the GMPP Hot cam for the LS3 will be good for FI or not?

THANKS!
Ah, the $64,000 question the hot CAM for a FI engine… , I don’t know, but I’d tend to say no. In the old days a cam with a lot of duration on a FI engine was generally not the way to go. These days so many things have changed I cannot claim agreat deal of knowledge here (hell that’s one of the reasons I’m here) , but I generally think its not the way to go. If I were forced to find something on my own, I would probably get the cam specs for the LSA 556 HP Caddy CTS V, the cam specs for the LS9 638 HP ZR1, and the Cam specs for the LS3 for a comparison.
The LSA peaks at 6100 RPMs w/ 9.1:1 The LS9 peaks at 6500 RPMS w/ 9.1:1

I could not find complete info online (cuz I have no real clue where to look), but judging from what I did find below, I think something in between the LSA cam and the LS9 cam would be ideal. (with a little more detail, we might find that it might be the LS3 cam)

Camshaft for LSA listed as “Lower-lift, low-overlap camshaft”
http://www.media.gm.com/us/cadillac/...CTSVindex.html
0.492-in lift
Supercharger Roots-style displacing 1.9liters
“premium recommended but not required” – check that out!

CAMSHAFT LS9
Type Hydraulic roller
Lift 0.562/0.558-inch intake/exhaust
Duration at 0.050 211/230 degrees intake/exhaust
Supercharger Eaton R2300 four-lobe Roots-style displacing 2.3 liters
Boost 10.5 psi maximum

CAMSHAFT LS3
204* int
211* exh

.551" int
.522" exh

Just an opinion.....
P.S. Williams graph does look nice and linear. It looks pretty goog, but at the same time, would love love to see a comparison of the same blower motor with various cams
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:23 PM   #73
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Ahh - I missed that you have an auto. Those pesky buggers do tend to suck up a bit more power!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you have a 19% DT loss, to find your crank hp you would multiply your rwhp by 1.19...so 486 x 1.19 = 578? I suck at math! Regardless, you have a sweet ride!

EDIT: I just talked to an buddy that is an engineer and he set me straight. The formula is: Crank hp=rwhp/(1-DT loss) or, in your case 486/.81 = 600hp! Now I know!
Hey...thanks..I didn't have an "official" formula just some inferences of my own....but it seemed to make sense so i ran with it.

Yeah A4's suck up more hp then the sticks....but I also think they make more torque down low when the engine is starting to rev but the cars barely moving.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:27 PM   #74
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THANKS!
Ah, the $64,000 question the hot CAM for a FI engine… , I don’t know, but I’d tend to say no. In the old days a cam with a lot of duration on a FI engine was generally not the way to go. These days so many things have changed I cannot claim agreat deal of knowledge here (hell that’s one of the reasons I’m here) , but I generally think its not the way to go. If I were forced to find something on my own, I would probably get the cam specs for the LSA 556 HP Caddy CTS V, the cam specs for the LS9 638 HP ZR1, and the Cam specs for the LS3 for a comparison.
The LSA peaks at 6100 RPMs w/ 9.1:1 The LS9 peaks at 6500 RPMS w/ 9.1:1

I could not find complete info online (cuz I have no real clue where to look), but judging from what I did find below, I think something in between the LSA cam and the LS9 cam would be ideal. (with a little more detail, we might find that it might be the LS3 cam)

Camshaft for LSA listed as “Lower-lift, low-overlap camshaft”
http://www.media.gm.com/us/cadillac/...CTSVindex.html
0.492-in lift
Supercharger Roots-style displacing 1.9liters
“premium recommended but not required” – check that out!

CAMSHAFT LS9
Type Hydraulic roller
Lift 0.562/0.558-inch intake/exhaust
Duration at 0.050 211/230 degrees intake/exhaust
Supercharger Eaton R2300 four-lobe Roots-style displacing 2.3 liters
Boost 10.5 psi maximum

CAMSHAFT LS3
204* int
211* exh

.551" int
.522" exh

Just an opinion.....
P.S. Williams graph does look nice and linear. It looks pretty goog, but at the same time, would love love to see a comparison of the same blower motor with various cams
Kinda hard to do...because No one but me puts a supercharger on a totally unmodded car....

they do exhaust first then heads the headers on and on....so you see very few LS2 stock dynos with just the blower.

I don't doubt 50 hp can be had from a true "Blower cam" but I'm just pointing out that with stock I got great results.
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:39 PM   #75
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If I remember reading correctly, as far as durability and such were concerned with, to the engineers, that cam was as big as they were going to go. I think I'd do something similar as you and use either an LS9 or LSA as templates for a highly reliable and powerful SC'd engine. These combinations obviously work - just think what complete exhaust, pulley, CAI, and tune would do. Shoot, raise the rev' limit and throw in whatever necessary valvetrain that's needed, and see how much either of those make at 7000 RPMs.

It's my understanding that the typical thought was that the Whipples were generally more efficient than regular older roots-style because the vanes were more aggressive. With the new TVS rotors though, it would seem the field is a little more level. Also, something to consider, look at what the car manufacturers use: Eaton. Eatons use the older style rotors although not as archaic as the older roots-style rotors and now those TVS rotors are tricling into OEM superchargers (i.e. 1900 for the CTS-V and 2300 for the 2300.) I have a recent Hot Rod that has a Whipple 2.6 SC on a 'Stang in there that Whipple says will support up to like 700 horse' or something while in the same mag' there is a test on a TVS 1900 in a Maggy' that Mag' says will support 800 horsepower. It would be interesting to see tests of the two styles on the same car.

I'll go with whichever has CARB numbers if I can't get FI on an OEM Camaro. I believe Mag' already has one, or is pending, CARB certification on their 1900 so that's one choice. It makes 460+ RWHP on a mostly stock G8 with a CB so I think that's well on the way to the power I'd like to make.

JMVHO
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