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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 05-01-2010, 12:39 AM   #1
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Can we use the catchcan made for the G8?

Im looking to get a catchcan again, in the past I dealt with billet protypes for my TBSS.

Am I wrong in thinking that the G8 catchcan will work for the camaro, looks like the same mounting and everything




http://www.billetprototypes.com/G8_C...n_Install.html

I know we can use the actual catchcan, just wondering if mounting and running the line will be the exact same.
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Old 05-01-2010, 08:24 AM   #2
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That looks like an awefully small can. Not sure that would do to much.

I would suggest that you look at RevXtreme's or Elite Engineering's can. They have them made for the Camaro.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme
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Old 05-01-2010, 10:04 AM   #3
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My catch can rocks, I love it.....


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Old 05-01-2010, 12:40 PM   #4
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Confession, I don't understand the function or benifit of the catchcan?

Anyone want to explain?
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Old 05-01-2010, 12:55 PM   #5
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It will work definitely. You can make a coke can work. It's a matter of ease of installation and mounting points. Seeing that all Camaro CC's are mounted on the other side of the engine bay (where the PCV nipple comes off), you may have a hard time finding a mounting spot over there or you'll have to run a bit of tubing. After seeing the amount of oil that some have drained from their CC's, in a relatively short amount of time, I'd be concerned with the size as well.
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Old 05-01-2010, 01:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrc1122 View Post
Confession, I don't understand the function or benifit of the catchcan?

Anyone want to explain?
your stock pcv system sucks. At best. Oil gets into your intake. oil has a high flash temperature. If you do not believe this, take your throttle body off. Look inside your intake. HEELLLOOOOO oil.

The "catch can" catches the oil. certain catch cans have different elements in them... do a search to figure out which one you think is best.

And no... a coke can works, but is no where near as effecient as an actual catch can. Sorry.
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:07 PM   #7
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And no... a coke can works, but is no where near as effecient as an actual catch can. Sorry.
Thanks for taking my point out of context.
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:15 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by caverman View Post
That looks like an awefully small can. Not sure that would do to much.

I would suggest that you look at RevXtreme's or Elite Engineering's can. They have them made for the Camaro.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme
They are my second choice, but Im shooting for the one I posted.

I ran it in my LS2, it was actually plenty big, emptied it when I changed my oil, every 3,000 miles.

What Im really trying to confirm is if the mounting points are the same, and if the install is the same (running the lines).
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Old 05-01-2010, 03:23 PM   #9
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same line connections. yes.

worst case scenenario, you might have to bend the mounting bracket a little bit to get it to go around the heater hoses.

It's a freakin catch can! just mount it somewhere!
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Old 05-01-2010, 09:44 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by HaZe_X View Post
They are my second choice, but Im shooting for the one I posted.

I ran it in my LS2, it was actually plenty big, emptied it when I changed my oil, every 3,000 miles.

What Im really trying to confirm is if the mounting points are the same, and if the install is the same (running the lines).
Realize that the OP can is somewhat short and even though it will catch some oil it's probabably not catching as much as say the RevXetreme will probably catch. The longer can is going to give the oil more time to drop out of the air coming in. So say RevXtreme is catching 100% (not saying it is but as an example) then that smaller can is probably only catching 60%-70%. Will it catch oil....yes....but not as much as a longer can will.

Why are you so sold on the one you posted?

Look at how much longer the RevExtreme is
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Old 05-02-2010, 11:05 PM   #11
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Understand that all the cans on the market will catch oil, some more than others though. Some are just beautifully crafted works of art, but not very effective, and with a motor with excessive blow-by due to damage or wear there is no can that can catch all of the oil forced through in such case.

Here is a good read on understanding the PCV system through the years to present:


Understanding PCV Systems




To understand why we need a proper PCV system one must understand what takes place in the crankcase during the average day of driving. First off, all internal combustion engines have a certain amount of "blow-by" or leakage past the piston rings into the crankcase. This consists of several compounds such as unburnt fuel and a small amount of the combustion gasses that result from the explosion of the air/fuel mixture. The combustion gasses contain several nasty things including sulfuric acid, carbon particles, and other caustic compounds that will contaminate the oil over time. In the crankcase there is also a certain amount of water, or moisture from condensation. Even if never run, an engine will accumulate moisture from the heat of the day to the coolness of the evening depending on how humid the climate is where the motor lives. Every time the motor gets run up to operating temperature these compounds are "gassed off" and with the OEM system it all gets "flushed" or pulled into the intake manifold where it is mixed with the intake air charge and burned in the combustion process and further in the catalytic converter before it is exhausted into the air as mostly just water vapor at that time. Now of course, a small amount keeps leaking past the rings into the crankcase and completes the cycle all over again, but without a proper vacuum pulled ventilation system....these nasty compounds will break down the oil and reduce its protection properties and the corrosive aspects start to rust internal parts resulting in reduced engine life.

In the "old days" of our grandfathers, the engineers that designed engines new the importance of evacuating these nasty compounds and the design was extremely simple. First was nothing more than plain breathers to allow excess crankcase pressure to be released or vented. But the damage from not "flushing" all the gasses out resulted in very short engine life (of course the oils of that day were nothing like the protection today's synthetics provide) so the next change added a vent tube, or evacuation tube that ran from the top of the crankcase to low on the car where the air streaming past would create a suction, or vacuum that would pull the vapors out and vent them directly into the air with a breather (barely filtered with a wire mesh type media that was oiled to catch dust & dirt) allowing the "fresh" makeup air in to complete the flushing process. Now this resulted in greatly increased engine life, but as the motors got worn oil would start to drip out the tube and drip onto the roadways, then the rain would wash it into the ditches, where it would enter the ground water (you know the rest of the EPA story) and the gasses just vented to the air.

As the EPA and the powers that be mandated stricter emission laws the system was refined more and more ultimately evolving into what we have today. A completely sealed system that uses the vacuum provided by the intake manifold to draw these vapors out, and the filtered fresh makeup air is drawn from the main air intake system and filtered by the main air filter. This results in very clean emissions, but the unintended issues are the detonation or "knock" that occurs when oil is introduced into the combustion chamber that the knock sensors pick up (before we can hear it) and pull timing to protect the engine from damage, and thus reduced power. Another result is the carbon buildup on the valves & piston tops (any techs reading this can surely verify the amount) also resulting in decreased performance and less power made.

The purpose of a proper oil separating catch can is to route these gasses through a baffle system that provides the most contact possible with the outer surface resulting in the oil being trapped and removed from the other gasses that do continue on through the intake and are burnt and consumed. It does NOTHING else in ANY way to the engine oil itself....it can't.

Now, addressing the "Home Depot" oil separator, it will and does catch a small amount of the oil but the majority still gets past into the intake (we used these and then the other cans that popped up on the market through the years before designing the ultimate final product that is offered today) and the reasons are simple:

It is plastic and transfers heat very inefficiently so very little condensing takes place.

The size. Anything less than 1 qt capacity and there is not enough surface area to be as functional.

And the lack of an effective baffle system allow oil to be pulled directly through.

As for having steel wool or another type of filter media inside, this will work well at first to trap oil....but as soon as it gets saturated droplets are pulled off and into the intake.

Why don't the auto manufacturers incorporate something similar? Cost and the added maintenance was deemed something that would NOT be accepted by the general market. (even though it is as simple as draining the can at each oil change).


The RevXtreme oil separating can is the best functioning can on the market and is easy to test against any other. Simply install a clear inline fuel filter between the outlet of any can & the intake manifold, you will see some saturation of the filter element with most any other, and as long as long as there are not internal engine issues, the RevX can will show little if any getting through, as it has a unique design with a perforated dispersion tube running down the center of the can from the inlet that results in the most complete dispersal possible for condensing the vapor/mist to droplets where it is trapped to be drained later. What makes the RevXtreme can even better is additional internal baffling consisting of discs that channel the exiting gasses one last time along the outer surface before entering a separate channel that keeps the trapped oil in the main portion of the can and a integrated PCV check valve that controls the amount of vacuum pulled and prevents "back-flow" or reversion back to the crankcase. The RevXtreme Carbon fiber finished can is just one of the several finishes available.

Bottom line is this: The OEM system does a great job of meeting emission standards and removing the harmful contaminants, but the unintended consequences are the oil that is drawn into the intake charge. For an engine to produce the maximum amount of energy per explosion (of the A/F in the combustion chamber) you want air & fuel only....any amount of oil in this mix will hamper the explosion resulting in less energy released, detonation, and carbon buildup. Trapping and removing this oil before it gets into the combustion chamber is the ONLY solution to maintaining the maximum efficiency and prevent excess carbon buildup.

And even more technical:

Why a catch can?


A reply to a tech question from a member who was going to eliminate the PCV system altogether:


At the very least drag only motors have a scavenge evac system in the header collectors to pull vac, and anyone that's serious has a belt driven vac pump.....especially the Alky motors due to the amount of moisture the alcohol introduces to the crankcase. Next time your at a sanctioned )NHRA/IHRA) race walk around the pits and look at the dragster motors and how they evac. You will see that any w/a vac pump run a relief valve on the opposite valve cover because if you pull any more than 14-15" of vac you start to pull oil off the wrist pins & rod journals.

I have run a pro team for 7 years and we run most every sanctioned track in the Eastern US and have yet to see a high HP dragster or door car w/out evac so I'm curious to what class they race and where.

The oil analysis will show the acid build up....and no, it takes a year or two before you would see any substantial damage to your internal engine parts.....but an easy way is after 6 months or so of running like you describe pull a valve cover and look and the corrosion from the vapors on your rocker arms. This is the first place it is visible.

More of my background? My team holds several local, divisional, National, & World championships in Super Pro, Super Comp, Quick rod, Top Dragster, and non-electronics.....I am also a graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school and have been an engine builder for over 35 years. Take a little time & read David Reher's tech tips......a world of information: http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?cat=3

Bottom line is, w/out a proper evac system you WILL sustain long term engine damage. It may take a few years to notice, but I build motors 6 days a week when not racing and see the results first hand.

Can you send me pics of how the can was set-up? If plumbed correctly, and the oil is coming into the intake from the PCV then the can will catch all but a very small amount (no can can catch 100%). It is also possible if you have an early design (over 8 months old) that the perforated dispersion tube may have come loose so the vapors are going in the top and right out the outlet instead of down the tube and dispersed to condense to droplets that are trapped...just send it back & they will repair & update it free). There are several other ways for oil mist to enter the intake manifold, the PCV system is the most common with the fresh air make up source (the fitting on the top rear of your throttle body) being the second most common. To eliminate that you need to cap the TB fitting and run a valve cover breather (installed as far from the crankcase vent as possible...ideally you want to pull filtered fresh air in one valve cover & evac it out the other or the LS6/LS2 style valley cover is second best) Then if it is excess crankcase pressure pushing oil vapor/mist out faster than the PCV can evac it you will see it pushed back through the line from the pass valve cover front to the TB and it is ingested from there. The 3rd point of ingestion is from reversion. This of course needs at least one piston/ring/bore/valveguide or seal issue that is allowing oil to be pulled into that one or more intake port and at high RPM's the reversion pulse will "push" that oil throughout the entire intake manifold. It will appear to have entered from the vac fitting that the PCV system uses but is really from one of the cylinders (reversion is a whole different process that is not widely understood but do a Google search and you can actually find some super high speed video of engines on dyno's where at high RPM's...9-10-12K plus the reversion cloud of A/F mixture is actually rising out of the intake runners or carb on a non fuel injected motor). To test for that just place a
clean clear fuel filter inline between the catch can outlet (the side fitting on the RevX can) and the vac fitting. If it gets oil on the can side, oil is coming through the can. If it first appears on the intake vacuum side, then it is reversion so you have a deeper issue. On the LS motors we pull apart it is usually # 7 ringland broken between the compression & middle ring, or the land itself broke off at the top. We also find the top ringland pinched or crushed down on the top ring (comp. ring) and metal transfer along the piston side has caused the oil & scraper ring to stick allowing oil & blow-by. Also, try this: at idle (vac is at it's greatest when at idle or when the throttle blade closes from high RPM's) remove the oil fill cap and hold your hand over it. Does it pull a slight suction? If so, all is good with most of the system and I doubt you have a damaged piston/ring/bore. But if there is ANY pressure pushing back you have a deeper issue and that is the cause of the oil problem.

Now on big cam/stroker builds a can inline on the dirty side, and a can inline from the fresh air source may be needed (the bigger the bore & longer the stroke, the more crankcase pressure is built up) If it is forced induction, then you have a whole new process to deal with......and that is the PCV system works properly when at idle & non-boost, but when you start making boost you have switched from the intake manifold being negative atmosphere to a pressurized component and the PCV system is rendered useless and pressure escapes wherever it can. The solution then is to have one way check valves inline so the vacuum need for proper evacuation comes from in front of the compressor (head unit) through a line run to the air filter.

This is getting a bit long and I hope all can follow this, but if not ask me specific questions for clarification so this helps all. I'll go over every type of solution and the pros & cons of each....and remember, this problem is NOT just in the GM LS based engines, but is an issue with ALL modern closed systems. We just tear into our cars where as the Mercedes or Lincoln owner never even realizes there is an issue.

I also wanted to address the water in the oil. You will NOT fill your crankcase up in short order with just breathers. What happens is each time your engine reaches operating temp the unburnt fuel, water vapor, combustion by-products will gas or "flash-off" as vapor. But only the excess crankcase pressure being relieved through the breather will carry any of that out....and without a proper evac system, a good amount remains in the crankcase and re-condenses back to droplets that coat the internal engine parts as your motor cools down and it contaminates the oil. Every time you heat cycle you are adding more contamination and it is not very visible to just "look" at your oil....you need a professional analysis to see just what is accumulating in your oil and how it is breaking down its ability to protect...but the corrosion from the sulfuric acid is also very damaging over time (I'll try to post up some pics of parts showing just this in the near future). Just pull the dipstick on a diesel 20 miles after an oil change...it already "looks" black & dirty, but is still new and providing the proper protection. Sight is deceiving. Oil might look pretty clean or dirty but an analysis report will show destructive levels of contaminants.


And finally, some have gone so far as to cap off the entire system and run an open hose from each valve cover to near the ground. While this will eliminate all oil getting into the intake via the PCV system, the damage done by the hose with the least amount of air moving past it while at speed will suck dirt/sand/dust/water/and who knows what else directly into the motor via that valve cover. It may take some time (depending on how clean the roads you drive on are) but will result in premature engine wear & failure.




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Old 05-04-2010, 06:16 PM   #12
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That looks like an awefully small can. Not sure that would do to much.

I would suggest that you look at RevXtreme's or Elite Engineering's can. They have them made for the Camaro.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ight=revxtreme
Definitely nota small can. Never had a problem once with it not having any room for oil. A catch can doesn't just function by being a can. My catch can has 3 separate chambers. One for incoming. One is the bottom of the can. And also one for outgoing. You have the tightly packed steel mesh as well as the baffle to condense the oil in the first chamber. Then you have the bottom chamber to allow the oil to drip into. Then you have yet another chamber with more tightly packed steel mesh so that there is absolutely no chance the oil gets out. Other companies can claim theirs is the best functioning, but there is no way they can beat the functionality in that regard. I have not seen a single design that would perform better. Call me proud of my product, or biased, but you can talk to owners to get their opinion.

Last edited by jamesbiz; 05-04-2010 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by caverman View Post
Realize that the OP can is somewhat short and even though it will catch some oil it's probabably not catching as much as say the RevXetreme will probably catch. The longer can is going to give the oil more time to drop out of the air coming in. So say RevXtreme is catching 100% (not saying it is but as an example) then that smaller can is probably only catching 60%-70%. Will it catch oil....yes....but not as much as a longer can will.

Why are you so sold on the one you posted?

Look at how much longer the RevExtreme is
There is no reason to assume that the size of the can makes for more oil catching. What about the length would catch more oil? It's the filter medians in between the out going air and incoming air that matters. There is no way oil would be able to get out of the can. I'm not sure why you think it would catch 30% less oil tho.
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Old 05-04-2010, 06:24 PM   #14
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My catch can rocks, I love it.....


...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
It will work definitely. You can make a coke can work. It's a matter of ease of installation and mounting points. Seeing that all Camaro CC's are mounted on the other side of the engine bay (where the PCV nipple comes off), you may have a hard time finding a mounting spot over there or you'll have to run a bit of tubing. After seeing the amount of oil that some have drained from their CC's, in a relatively short amount of time, I'd be concerned with the size as well.
If there is enough oil to bog down the catch can, then there are other things going on. On top of that, it takes 30 seconds to empty the can. And that's another BIG difference between the cans on the market, and mine. You can actually empty it out with out making an ordeal about it. With out having to take the catch can off. And with out having to drain it out into a cup inside your engine bay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HaZe_X View Post
They are my second choice, but Im shooting for the one I posted.

I ran it in my LS2, it was actually plenty big, emptied it when I changed my oil, every 3,000 miles.

What Im really trying to confirm is if the mounting points are the same, and if the install is the same (running the lines).
I had someone order a can from me today for the Camaro. As far as I can see, it would be the exact setup as the G8 GXP. But seems to only work with out the stock air filter. Possibly with, but I wouldn't chance it. There is more then enough room for it in that spot, as I got a chance to see an engine bay in person with the CAI, and it looks exactly the same size.

The mounting point would be the same, and the lines would run the same, except for the tube coming from engine, as that would be the same setup that your GTO has. Both tubes running from that one spot.

Last edited by jamesbiz; 05-04-2010 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 05-04-2010, 07:41 PM   #15
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There is no reason to assume that the size of the can makes for more oil catching. What about the length would catch more oil? It's the filter medians in between the out going air and incoming air that matters. There is no way oil would be able to get out of the can. I'm not sure why you think it would catch 30% less oil tho.

James, your can is a work of art, but the size is the science. All you need to do is side by side tests with the Siku Micchi or RevX to see. Pick a car with known oil in the intake issues, run each the same amount of time with an inline clear fuel filter between the can and the intake. You will see any of the smaller mesh cans will allow small amounts of oil through, clear as day. That is not to say in ANY way someone should not use your can as it will & does catch the majority of the suspended oil (have tested every can I can find on the market). As for the size, it's all about the velocity, or speed of the flow through the can. A small can cannot allow the flow to slow enough to allow the greatest amount of oil to drop out of suspension...take a straw and blow through it, any liguid will exit as the small size creates faster flow (pinch a garden hose and watch the stream) than a 3/4" hose of the same length.

None of this is saying yours is bad, (I used & sold the same type cans for years before designing these and continue to improve the designs for the ultimate in function). yours is absolutely beautiful and far better than ANY of the ebay cheapo's, Just follow the science of everything involved in the principles of oil suspension in air flow and create one twice the volume and see for yourself.... it will function more effectively than the smaller ones. In fact I have shared my drawings and test results with many competetors, some ignore it & some have been very appreaciative. Unlike the normal cut throat corporate games.

And I would be proud of the quality of your product as well.

Peace.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:17 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
James, your can is a work of art, but the size is the science. All you need to do is side by side tests with the Siku Micchi or RevX to see. Pick a car with known oil in the intake issues, run each the same amount of time with an inline clear fuel filter between the can and the intake. You will see any of the smaller mesh cans will allow small amounts of oil through, clear as day. That is not to say in ANY way someone should not use your can as it will & does catch the majority of the suspended oil (have tested every can I can find on the market). As for the size, it's all about the velocity, or speed of the flow through the can. A small can cannot allow the flow to slow enough to allow the greatest amount of oil to drop out of suspension...take a straw and blow through it, any liguid will exit as the small size creates faster flow (pinch a garden hose and watch the stream) than a 3/4" hose of the same length.

None of this is saying yours is bad, (I used & sold the same type cans for years before designing these and continue to improve the designs for the ultimate in function). yours is absolutely beautiful and far better than ANY of the ebay cheapo's, Just follow the science of everything involved in the principles of oil suspension in air flow and create one twice the volume and see for yourself.... it will function more effectively than the smaller ones. In fact I have shared my drawings and test results with many competetors, some ignore it & some have been very appreaciative. Unlike the normal cut throat corporate games.

And I would be proud of the quality of your product as well.

Peace.
I'll start off with saying, thank you, and I also appreciate the effort you've put into your product as well. BUT, you are make a few assumptions. While the size is the science when it comes to the way you've gone about stopping the air flow, it is not the science of catch cans. And again, thank you for the compliments, But I'm not in this game to compete against the eBay cheapos. I play with the big boys on the market, and would consider a comparison to anything but the expensive cans, as nothing more then an insult. Not saying that I felt you were insulting me in any way tho.

To MY knowledge, you have not done a side by side with my can. Correct me if I'm wrong. So you can't say that yours will work better, nor that you will see oil coming out of mine clear as day. Now, I have not put a clear filter at the end to check, but my clear test is looking into the intake manifold after many months of usage, and not finding a drop of oil, which to me suggests that no oil is getting through. Again, I don't mean to sound defensive or offensive in any way, but that's the truth. It would be nothing more then pure speculation with out actual hard proof saying this or that.

Would be like me testing two different types of engines, with one being a turbo set up, and saying that turbo set ups are there for better then all N/A because your engine shows more hp then the ones you've tested.

My can is not like the other mesh ones on the market. I do not use, nor have any use for the science of size, as I don't need that to stop the velocity. There is just no way for the oil to escape the second filter on the outlet side. But even if it did, we'd be splitting such small hairs at that point, that any arguments or conjectures would be nothing more then erroneous back and for sales tactics on our parts. We both know that engines can, have, and will survive with out a catch can. We provide a service for the people that want to do better then just survive. At the point that are cars are out, we are down to just semantics. If I were to agree with you in saying that your design catches more oil, how much of a % more oil are you claiming it catches exactly? Are we talking about an OZ difference over the lifetime of the car, or are we going into cups/liters/gallons?

Once we get past the nity gritty, we are left with personal preference on the part of the customer, and really, nothing more.

Last edited by jamesbiz; 05-05-2010 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:35 AM   #17
jamesbiz
 
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One last thing. The science behind a good catch can, is having the most possible surface for the oil to be able to condense on. Not size it hieght or baffles
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