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Old 05-11-2010, 03:22 PM   #26
radz28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rez333 View Post
The every single professional reviewer needs more driving experience by your standards because my feelings mirror theirs. Here is an example:


Quote:
"lively feel"
"feels lighter"
"almost like a race car around turns"

That's on the 2010, and has been the consistent universal feeling amongst professional reviewers. Here's another one:



Quote:
"feels poised and precise all the way to the limit"

None of these comments of "precise", "poised", "feels lively" etc. are EVER given to the Camaro.

Now I'm not saying all this to put down the Camaro, but merely to rebuff your suggestions that I don't have driving experience as clearly your opinion contradicts professional reviewers with more objectivity and experience than you.

Now, I must say, I DID enjoy my testdrive of the Camaro SS. I didn't have anything really to complain about except for the late engagement of the clutch. Apparently though, a late engaging clutch is desirable for racing purposes as it allows you to do quick gear changes. Personally I don't like it because I will use it more for street than on the track.

However, I simply enjoyed the precise feeling of the handling of the Mustang more. I have recently narrowed my choices down to two cars now. First choice is the 2011 Shelby GT500, and second is the 2012 Camaro SS if finances don't pan out for some reason. I've decided against the Camaro Z/28 just because the timing doesn't allow me to test drive it and then make a decision in my time frame.

I think the lack of precision is a combination of the visibility and size of the Camaro. It is something that you can get used to over time, but if you're going for a test drive or you're a professional reviewer, you're going to be comparing it with other cars. So therefore, I'm not too concerned about my feelings of the Camaro's precision. I think it's a terrific car. At the GT500 price, I would choose the GT500 over the Z/28; but at the Mustang GT price, I would choose the Camaro SS.
I have to say the clutch was a problem for me, too, lol It was easy enough after I killed it my first attempt at moving the car, but it just took a little familiarity, IMO.

As far as comparing SS to the GT500, I don't really consider that a fair match up, but since SS is all we have to do battle right now, then it is what it is. However, and I'm not sure how you feel about mod'ing, and since you haven't complained about the power in this post I'll address the handling, but it seems like you can save a boatload of $$$ on a 2SS, spend less than half the difference in price (between the two) on a complete chassis/suspension make over, and you'd hand a GT500 it's arse. I can't say anything about the view, because I think that's subjective and gives Camaro much of it's character, but you can change SS into a GT500 killer, so long as you don't have plans to mod' the GT500 significantly in the future. Stock-to-stock, it goes without saying the GT500 has a lot of room to grow over SS, but I don't recall your ideas about mod'ing.

It really sounds like you've already made your mind up, really. No one even knows what Z28 is going to be, but if you aren't planning on SS until '12 (your worst case senario) and are automatically discounting the chance of a '12 Z28, I'm not sure why you're posting here...
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:45 PM   #27
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:07 PM   #28
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I have to say the clutch was a problem for me, too, lol It was easy enough after I killed it my first attempt at moving the car, but it just took a little familiarity, IMO.

As far as comparing SS to the GT500, I don't really consider that a fair match up, but since SS is all we have to do battle right now, then it is what it is. However, and I'm not sure how you feel about mod'ing, and since you haven't complained about the power in this post I'll address the handling, but it seems like you can save a boatload of $$$ on a 2SS, spend less than half the difference in price (between the two) on a complete chassis/suspension make over, and you'd hand a GT500 it's arse. I can't say anything about the view, because I think that's subjective and gives Camaro much of it's character, but you can change SS into a GT500 killer, so long as you don't have plans to mod' the GT500 significantly in the future. Stock-to-stock, it goes without saying the GT500 has a lot of room to grow over SS, but I don't recall your ideas about mod'ing.

It really sounds like you've already made your mind up, really. No one even knows what Z28 is going to be, but if you aren't planning on SS until '12 (your worst case senario) and are automatically discounting the chance of a '12 Z28, I'm not sure why you're posting here...
Why am I posting here? Because I like to talk. That is the point of forums, is it not? I honestly don't have any inclination of starting the types of numerous threads that start on these forums because I have absolutely no interest in them. Nevertheless - those people like to express themselves in that manner.

For me, the car choosing experience is a very important one. And therefore I have an inclination to share the thought processes going behind it. My post is the conclusion of my Z/28 journey, and as painful as some may have found it - it was more painful for my friends who have to live through this process every lunch time.

But you're right: modding the SS is a viable alternative.
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:20 PM   #29
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[QUOTE=HIGHOCTANE;1838297]There is NO Production 5th Gen Z/28!!!!!!(all though I hope there is soon) There isn't even any solid info at this point...So yes that choice would be pretty easy lol. Lets see GT500 or a car that doesn't exsist...hmmm?
/QUOTE]

True, but I'm depending on the numerous sources of rumors around it. I think there are enough of them that a 2011 release is highly likely - I'd say 70%. Put it this way: no-one has EVER refuted the rumors. No-one has ever said that the Z/28 will not be released (I'm talking about rumors since the beginning of 2010) in 2011. All the rumors say the same thing: 2011 release.

This is a great time to live in. The choice we have of inexpensive 400+ HP cars is just amazing. No matter what, we can't lose with whatever we choose.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:23 PM   #30
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If you can afford a 2011 GT500 then get it now. Your not going to find a better car for the money. You can can always get the Z if it proves to be better once it comes out. GT500's are going to hold their value alot better then the camaro if you decide to get a Z in a few years.

Even if the z/28 gets the CTS-V's LSA its still not forged and limited to low boost, unlike the GT500 that can take 19psi all day at 750+whp. The Z is also going to have a hard time beating the 2011 GT500 w/ SVT on the road course since it just shaved 3 seconds off their 2010 lap time at Laguna Secca.
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Old 05-12-2010, 11:45 PM   #31
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i bought the camaro blindfolded.. and i love it! passed my high expectations by a mile
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:35 AM   #32
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what is going to be the big difference between the 2ss and the Z28. some emblems and the engine. and if it gets the LSA it's just a LS3 with a supercharger and forged internals. most of the people with a SS has modded theirs and it will more than likely be faster than a Z28 anyway. people are going to more than likely pay way more just for the legendary name. just my 2 cents
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:27 AM   #33
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Had an 08 GT500 they aren't all that. Bought the Camaro...............have since sold the GT500. The better car won.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:09 AM   #34
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If you can afford a 2011 GT500 then get it now. Your not going to find a better car for the money. You can can always get the Z if it proves to be better once it comes out. GT500's are going to hold their value alot better then the camaro if you decide to get a Z in a few years.

Even if the z/28 gets the CTS-V's LSA its still not forged and limited to low boost, unlike the GT500 that can take 19psi all day at 750+whp. The Z is also going to have a hard time beating the 2011 GT500 w/ SVT on the road course since it just shaved 3 seconds off their 2010 lap time at Laguna Secca.
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what is going to be the big difference between the 2ss and the Z28. some emblems and the engine. and if it gets the LSA it's just a LS3 with a supercharger and forged internals. most of the people with a SS has modded theirs and it will more than likely be faster than a Z28 anyway. people are going to more than likely pay way more just for the legendary name. just my 2 cents
Look at the Sticky for details on LSA. You may be simplifying what you actually mean, however spreading inaccuracies is not going to help misconceptions about this engine. I'm not even going to try to argue that it has the potential the GT500 has, however, there are features LSA has that makes it better for FI than what LS3 comes with.

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Had an 08 GT500 they aren't all that. Bought the Camaro...............have since sold the GT500. The better car won.
Why? In all seriousness? It'd be a no-brainer for me (because I'm simply a Camaro-guy) but what was it for you, out of curiosity?

Thanks
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Old 05-13-2010, 11:54 AM   #35
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What I find most interesting, is how can anyone not feel a connection to the Camaro? I guess since I'm from a GM family where GM sales put bread on our table, Ford is just another 4 letter word to me. I don't hate them, they're just not part of my "family." I don't care if Ford built the next car that was fast as the space shuttle, I wouldn't buy it. So to even compare them to even question which one you should buy sounds extremely weird to me. But that's just from my perspective. I can't see things unbiased enough to do that, yet those who aren't from a GM family may not understand my position either.

Part of the reasoning anyone would want a GT500 or 5th gen Z28 (if there ever is one) would be some sort of "status" and feeding an ego, I can understand that. My dad always told me, buy the best you can afford, and you'll never feel cheated. Key word is "afford". Most people buy an LS model of Camaro because 1) That's all they can afford, 2) They like a "no frills" car, 3) It's a good starter car if it's, say, your first new car, 4) (fill in the blank). Millions of reasons. And when people buy a 2SS, they have their reasons, too. You get the idea. Different models fills different "needs" in a car for each customer.

Do you NEED a Camaro? No. An Aveo woud get you from point A to B quite nicely. But if you're cookoo for Camaros, then anything other than a Camaro just won't do. That's why GM built it. Because we WANTED them to and gave GM a good buisness reason to do so. Win/win.

If the Camaro leaves you with doubts after one test drive, then move on. It's not for you, as well as it's not for everyone. I'd rather someone buy a Camaro because they love the car rather than whether "it positions itself nicely on the road." Remember, when your wife/husband/significant other either married/got together with you or avows a love for you, they did it taking into account all your flaws. If they couldn't deal with ALL your flaws, then they too, would move on and not love you as they do now. At least not to the point of bonding with you. To me, Camaro is like that too. I love our Camaro. Flaws and all.

So if you can't get past the flaws or any one particular flaw, then you don't really love the Camaro, and it's not a match made in heaven. Buy the 'stang.
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:00 PM   #36
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What I find most interesting, is how can anyone not feel a connection to the Camaro? I guess since I'm from a GM family where GM sales put bread on our table, Ford is just another 4 letter word to me. I don't hate them, they're just not part of my "family." I don't care if Ford built the next car that was fast as the space shuttle, I wouldn't buy it. So to even compare them to even question which one you should buy sounds extremely weird to me. But that's just from my perspective. I can't see things unbiased enough to do that, yet those who aren't from a GM family may not understand my position either.

Part of the reasoning anyone would want a GT500 or 5th gen Z28 (if there ever is one) would be some sort of "status" and feeding an ego, I can understand that. My dad always told me, buy the best you can afford, and you'll never feel cheated. Key word is "afford". Most people buy an LS model of Camaro because 1) That's all they can afford, 2) They like a "no frills" car, 3) It's a good starter car if it's, say, your first new car, 4) (fill in the blank). Millions of reasons. And when people buy a 2SS, they have their reasons, too. You get the idea. Different models fills different "needs" in a car for each customer.

Do you NEED a Camaro? No. An Aveo woud get you from point A to B quite nicely. But if you're cookoo for Camaros, then anything other than a Camaro just won't do. That's why GM built it. Because we WANTED them to and gave GM a good buisness reason to do so. Win/win.

If the Camaro leaves you with doubts after one test drive, then move on. It's not for you, as well as it's not for everyone. I'd rather someone buy a Camaro because they love the car rather than whether "it positions itself nicely on the road." Remember, when your wife/husband/significant other either married/got together with you or avows a love for you, they did it taking into account all your flaws. If they couldn't deal with ALL your flaws, then they too, would move on and not love you as they do now. At least not to the point of bonding with you. To me, Camaro is like that too. I love our Camaro. Flaws and all.

So if you can't get past the flaws or any one particular flaw, then you don't really love the Camaro, and it's not a match made in heaven. But the 'stang.
No offense to the OP, but this is what I think I wanted to post but couldn't articulate it. I fell in love with the 4th Gen. my dad bought when I was 16. After a couple years, I was able to afford my own '95 Z28 and LOVED it. Over time, my tastes started to change, and I came to realize there were some things that I didn't really like on the car, but my love for Camaro died. I realized that I didn't buy the car for luxuries, or for long trips, or to coddle me. I bought it for it's performance it's rich history. I appreciated the way my '02 Z28 would tear my head off pulling 1.6 60's at the track and spin the tires at 40 MPH downshift; the way that car made the scenery blur and gave me tunnel vision when I went down the track. As time goes on, I realize sure, there are what could be considered shortcomings on the '10, but there's nothing even close to keep me from wanting this car more than almost anything.

No product is perfect, and if you can't look past it's shortcomings, that product is probably not for you
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:12 PM   #37
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It was exciting to know that confirmation of the Z/28's arrival in 2011 is getting stronger. However, that made me think whether I really wanted to get it.

The thing is, the 2010 SS has excellent performance numbers. However, I took it for a test drive and the experience left me lukewarm. I did however enjoy the test drive of the 2010 Shelby GT500.

Now I am thinking the Z/28 will place better on the road or have better handling but I don't know for sure. The problem is I will probably never get a test drive for a long time (maybe 1-2 years after release?) since every order will be virtually a sold order. It took me about a year from release to get a test drive of the 2010 SS.

So I am full of extreme doubt right now. It is a huge risk not to test drive it before purchasing due to my experiences with the 2010 SS test drive. Conceivably I could make a test drive conditional of a purchase when I order the Z/28, but I think it is too much of a commitment too late. I could be driving in a 2011 Shelby GT500 in Spring 2011 rather than roll the dice with a Fall 2011 Z/28 test drive (which would mean if I didn't like it I would have to wait until Spring 2012 to purchase a Shelby GT500).

Anyway: I was wondering if anyone can give their 2c on the matter.
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after reading your post i have to say that i dont like the clutch either But what kind of test drive did you take? where you could really test the car.
you sound like you have been reading way too many mags. let motortrend go, and go drive both the cars again(back to back). Then come back and tell us your thoughts with out the motortrend pr talking for you.

i have not drove a gt500 so i have no idea what its like or how it handles, but i cant imagine that its much smaller than a camaro
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Old 05-19-2010, 02:21 PM   #38
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Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses after my last response.

I found out what's the accepted term for when I described "place-ability" - and that is "steering response". You steer and the car goes there. The Mustang does that better than the Camaro, and most reviewers have commented the same as what I've experienced.

The combination of "steering response", visibility and size makes the Mustang/Shelby feel smaller.

Anyway, the reason why I'm back on this thread is because I was checking out a sweet Aston Martin DB9 and admiring its hips. My love of the Aston Martin hips brought me back to thinking about the Camaro again. However, the AM hips are like the hips of a super-model whereas by comparison, let's face it, the Camaro's hips look like the hips of a big woman. Nevertheless the Camaro does have hips!

Right now I've got two posters pinned up on the wall:




And I am having doubts now. For me it boils down to this:
1) I prefer the performance/handling of the Shelby
2) I like the looks of the Z/28 (what I think the Z/28 will look like). But I am not sure right now whether:
a) I am going to get sick of it after a while (when there are too many of them on the road)
b) I really do like the hips or not. Sure it has hips, but they're not Aston Martin hips.

Long story short: I haven't ruled out the Z/28. I think I'll wait longer for the actual design and performance stats to come out.

If I really like these hips:

.. then am I being silly for trying to simulate that enjoyment through the Camaro's hips, which don't really look like the AM's hips? Muscle cars are like a raging rhinoceros, and sports cars like the DB9 are like a svelte tiger. Maybe I want my car to be too many things?

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Old 05-19-2010, 04:03 PM   #39
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It was exciting to know that confirmation of the Z/28's arrival in 2011 is getting stronger. However, that made me think whether I really wanted to get it.

The thing is, the 2010 SS has excellent performance numbers. However, I took it for a test drive and the experience left me lukewarm. I did however enjoy the test drive of the 2010 Shelby GT500.

Now I am thinking the Z/28 will place better on the road or have better handling but I don't know for sure. The problem is I will probably never get a test drive for a long time (maybe 1-2 years after release?) since every order will be virtually a sold order. It took me about a year from release to get a test drive of the 2010 SS.

So I am full of extreme doubt right now. It is a huge risk not to test drive it before purchasing due to my experiences with the 2010 SS test drive. Conceivably I could make a test drive conditional of a purchase when I order the Z/28, but I think it is too much of a commitment too late. I could be driving in a 2011 Shelby GT500 in Spring 2011 rather than roll the dice with a Fall 2011 Z/28 test drive (which would mean if I didn't like it I would have to wait until Spring 2012 to purchase a Shelby GT500).

Anyway: I was wondering if anyone can give their 2c on the matter.
Why are you comparing the GT500 to the SS? If that is your budget compare it to the Hennessy for the same price and power
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:57 PM   #40
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Why are you comparing the GT500 to the SS? If that is your budget compare it to the Hennessy for the same price and power
Because those are the only two cars I can test drive right now (can't test drive a Z/28). It always puzzles me when people buy cars purely based on looks. I personally can't stand the idea of driving a car that looks fast but is dead slow.

For me "steering response" is very important in the feeling of speed. When you're on the track, it may not matter as much because you're going at extreme speeds. But when you're on the streets, there aren't that many opportunities to feel like you're going fast. Steering response goes a long way to make you feel like you're going fast, when your speed is restricted by traffic.

Nevertheless, the Camaro is a head-turner - it does look good.

If I were to rate the cars, on driving enjoyment I'd give the Shelby a 9 and the Camaro SS a 7. I'd imagine the Z28 would get an 8.

On looks, I would rate the Camaro Z/28 (concept pics) a 9, the Shelby an 8, and the Camaro SS an 8.5.

The numbers are so close which is why I am so indecisive.
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:46 PM   #41
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Because those are the only two cars I can test drive right now (can't test drive a Z/28). It always puzzles me when people buy cars purely based on looks. I personally can't stand the idea of driving a car that looks fast but is dead slow.

For me "steering response" is very important in the feeling of speed. When you're on the track, it may not matter as much because you're going at extreme speeds. But when you're on the streets, there aren't that many opportunities to feel like you're going fast. Steering response goes a long way to make you feel like you're going fast, when your speed is restricted by traffic.

Nevertheless, the Camaro is a head-turner - it does look good.

If I were to rate the cars, on driving enjoyment I'd give the Shelby a 9 and the Camaro SS a 7. I'd imagine the Z28 would get an 8.

On looks, I would rate the Camaro Z/28 (concept pics) a 9, the Shelby an 8, and the Camaro SS an 8.5.

The numbers are so close which is why I am so indecisive.

All I'm saying is this, Shelby like Hennessey are performance packages like Saleen and Ling. How can you compare a package upgrade to a stock car?
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Old 05-19-2010, 05:55 PM   #42
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In the absence of a test drive, I have to "guess" what the Z/28 would be like do I not?

I test drove both the 2010 Mustang GT and the 2010 GT500 and both cars drove very similarly to each other, except of course the GT500 had kick-in-your-pants power. It is reasonable to assume that I will experience a similar comparison between the SS and the Z/28.

It's just common-sense to me that in the absence of a Z/28, then test driving an SS is the next best thing. I don't get why this is puzzling to you.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #43
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All I'm saying is this, Shelby like Hennessey are performance packages like Saleen and Ling. How can you compare a package upgrade to a stock car?
I guess I'm confused about what you are trying to say. The GT500 is not a "package". It's a Ford production vehicle built on the same line as the base and GT Mustangs.

Hennessey, Ling, Roush, Saleen, etc., are not factory-produced vehicles.
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:17 PM   #44
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I guess I'm confused about what you are trying to say. The GT500 is not a "package". It's a Ford production vehicle built on the same line as the base and GT Mustangs.
Maybe I'm thinking Shelby, when I see the Cobra I think Shelby
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Old 05-20-2010, 02:27 AM   #45
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you cant truly judge till it is out.. if you want a car now go for the gt500.. if you aer willing to wait.. then wait...
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Old 05-20-2010, 03:09 AM   #46
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Buy the GT500. It's a nice car and Ford is building as many as the market can take.

If and when the Z28 hits the streets you will not be able to test drive one and probably will have to wait a long time to get one.

Both are negative points to you from your original posts.

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Old 05-20-2010, 10:52 AM   #47
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That's gonna suck if you can't test drive it! How are you supposed to decide if you like how the car feels? I mean, I know how it feels to drive and handle an LSA but not in a Camaro package.
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Old 05-20-2010, 10:59 AM   #48
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That's gonna suck if you can't test drive it! How are you supposed to decide if you like how the car feels? I mean, I know how it feels to drive and handle an LSA but not in a Camaro package.
Take it from me.....the LSA in a Camaro handles and drives just fine


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Old 05-20-2010, 11:23 AM   #49
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I assume it will. Well, if and when it releases I'll be in the running as long as I don't have to wait too damn long.
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:39 AM   #50
Robin Lawrence
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qdiesel View Post
I assume it will. Well, if and when it releases I'll be in the running as long as I don't have to wait too damn long.
At this point in time we can only make assumptions. But like a ZO6 or a ZR1 your not going to be able to get a test ride since most are sold already or the dealer is scared. Really they should be LOL.

Since they can sell every one of the specialty cars they won't need to allow test drives.

And if you need a test drive to determine if the car "feels" right to you then maybe your in the wrong market segment. I would guess that most Z28's if and when they are produced will be garage queens and weekend toys.

Not unlike most people that might buy a GT500.

Hell I have had many test drives in specialty cars, but they are few and far between.

Good luck.

Robin
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