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Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission Tune and diagnostics for engines and auto transmission.

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Old 05-05-2010, 03:00 PM   #1
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Is Tuning for anyone?

Whats up guys....Got a question a buddy of mine is going to purchase some program so he can tune the vehicle he works on....He has a friend that has LS1 Edit and says they are the same..... So my question is how difficult is it to tune i know everone starts at the bottom This guy is ASE Certified and is a close friend of mine, I do trust him to install the cam and springs...I just done want the tuning to be diffrent and it go KABOOM
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:06 PM   #2
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I hope so (that tuning is for anyone)...I have a Trinity that I have yet to use! Friday I hope...
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:17 PM   #3
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they are not the same. Tuning these cars is different then tuning any other lsx car. With these cars, you solely rely on the MAF... as opposed to other lsx cars which is part speed density/part maf, or stictly speed density. There are also no VE tables for these cars.

The fact he is ASE certified shouldn't mean anything.

Honestly, it sounds like he doesn't know what he's about to get into. therefore I wouldn't trust him... just politely say no.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:19 PM   #4
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I just want to make sure its somthing that anyone can do if they have the information in hand..... He is installing the cam and spring next weekend and hasnt tuned a LS3 yet But HIS friend uses LS1 EDIT and says most of it is the same..... So this question is for somone that does tuning .... I dont know the first thing about it so thats why im asking
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:30 PM   #5
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There are allot of differences from a LS1 to the LS3. Just because a friend of a friend has some software don't mean they know what they are doing. Also ASE don't mean anything except he can read a book and pick the correct multiple choice answers. I was a ASE Master Tech at the age of 18 and back then I thought I knew it all. LOL 30 years latter I realized just how ignorant I was back then. I would find someone who has some more tuning experience before letting a friend borrow some software from a friend to tune your car.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WICKEDSS View Post
I just want to make sure its somthing that anyone can do if they have the information in hand..... He is installing the cam and spring next weekend and hasnt tuned a LS3 yet But HIS friend uses LS1 EDIT and says most of it is the same..... So this question is for somone that does tuning .... I dont know the first thing about it so thats why im asking
words of wisdom: go get a freakin dyno tune.

seriously.... if you like your motor in one piece and not smoking like a diesel.
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Old 05-05-2010, 03:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by jbsrace1 View Post
There are allot of differences from a LS1 to the LS3. Just because a friend of a friend has some software don't mean they know what they are doing. Also ASE don't mean anything except he can read a book and pick the correct multiple choice answers. I was a ASE Master Tech at the age of 18 and back then I thought I knew it all. LOL 30 years latter I realized just how ignorant I was back then. I would find someone who has some more tuning experience before letting a friend borrow some software from a friend to tune your car.


I've been there too. I agree...don't let this guy "tune" your car. You'd be better off with a "canned" tune than this option. The ONLY way to tune for full optimization of your vehicle's powertrain (which it sounds like you are wanting as you're doing internals too...) is to strap it to the dyno and adjust for YOUR car's specific tolerances. This allows you to get things "where they belong" for your car.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:06 PM   #8
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they are not the same. Tuning these cars is different then tuning any other lsx car. With these cars, you solely rely on the MAF... as opposed to other lsx cars which is part speed density/part maf, or stictly speed density. There are also no VE tables for these cars.

The fact he is ASE certified shouldn't mean anything.

Honestly, it sounds like he doesn't know what he's about to get into. therefore I wouldn't trust him... just politely say no.
Actually, these do use speed density... it's just not a traditional table anymore. It's a set of 30 equations, with the form:

A*MAP^2 + B*MAP + C*MAP*RPM + D*RPM + E*RPM^2 + F

There are 30 zones, each with their own set of coefficients, for a total of 180 coefficients that map a 3D surface... which is your VE "table" if you want to call it that.

How do you tune it?... Well... you either use EFI Live's Virtual Ve, apply an enhanced OS from HP Tuners, or use EQ VE to derive the coefficients from a table.
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Old 05-05-2010, 04:10 PM   #9
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yeah replace what i said with what he said..... I'm just an amatuer. lol
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Old 05-05-2010, 05:40 PM   #10
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Ok so nothing is the same....So what GUY one is saying to GUY two about tuning is incorrect....Im guessing tuning on a 4TH gen is way more simple than on a 5TH..... Thanks for the feed back guys i can rest easy not knowing that is a whole new ball game when i tell him why im not going to let him......
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:24 PM   #11
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Ok guys lets back up i was wrong he uses EFI LIVE not LS1 EDIT
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:44 PM   #12
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Can anyone learn to tune? Id say probably if your willing to put the time in. I can't speak for hptuners(I'm assuming its the same since they have a big fan base) but the EFI live folks are VERY helpful. Both support from the company itself and from users on their forum(and other forums) is great. Its a large community that really wants to help each other and make self tunning work. There is a TON of stuff to read online and lots of books on theory and even some seminars and such(more $) if you want to take the time to learn. That's the big thing, wanting to learn. And being patient and taking your time and taking small steps.

If your friend has the ability and willingness to learn is something that I can't answer though

Check out EFI lives website. They will let you download the program to play with. Then cruise over to hptuners board and efi lives board. Maybe get a basic book on tuning(banish iirc is an author of a deccent book), you might feel that you want to learn it

Its not some mystical black art.....it just takes some time and patients
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Old 05-05-2010, 08:52 PM   #13
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What's up with all this crazy talk of algorithms and such? Don't scare the guy! Just use efilive and the VE table builds itself

*just joking with Dsteck, things are definatly NOT that simple and I'm not saying hptunners is bad. Just some friendly razzing
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:04 PM   #14
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ever heard the old saying "DON'T STEP OVER A DOLLAR TO PICK UP A DIME".
get it done by a pro,on a dyno.
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:29 PM   #15
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Not just in tunning but everything, I've had enough "pros" that do subpar work that I've stopped trusting people just because they have a big shop, lotsa marketing $ spent, or lotsa previous customers. And while "you get what you pay for" rings true some times......I've also spent big $ for crap.

Some pros are very good, some ok, and some just suck. JMOH in what I have delt with from tuners.

I would trust some "back yard" tuners over a lot of "pros" is all I'm saying. A lot of guys buy a tuning system and go do tunes for people though and screw stuff up royaly though.

Please disregard the rant.....I'm replying from a bar lol
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:28 PM   #16
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tuning these cars w/o the proper knowledge could be suicide for your engine. there's way too many variables in programs like HP Tuners for any non-seasoned LSX tuner to know. I know this because I have HP Tuners and I've seen the crazy amounts of data, variables in different tables and so on. certainly not anything I would mess with.

I bought the program so I could see and record what the engine is doing. I can send these runs to people like Ted Jannetty so he can make any adjustments as needed.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ratlover View Post
Not just in tunning but everything, I've had enough "pros" that do subpar work that I've stopped trusting people just because they have a big shop, lotsa marketing $ spent, or lotsa previous customers. And while "you get what you pay for" rings true some times......I've also spent big $ for crap.

Some pros are very good, some ok, and some just suck. JMOH in what I have delt with from tuners.

I would trust some "back yard" tuners over a lot of "pros" is all I'm saying. A lot of guys buy a tuning system and go do tunes for people though and screw stuff up royaly though.

Please disregard the rant.....I'm replying from a bar lol
this is very true. a lot of big name tuners kind of just half ass their way through tunes, because there is no real "quality control" for tunes, or a way to get a refund.... you kind of just give them money and hope for the best.

i'd prefer to find someone who knows what they are doing fairly well, and have them thoroughly go through my tune. I'm going to end up driving 8 hours to a guy to get this done in my car, but in my opinion, it is well worth it. and is much better solution than having a big name person just half ass their way through my car, to get to the next.
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:47 AM   #18
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Ya i understand...... I spoke with the guy that has the EFI LIVE and from what he has told me he has done many LS1,LS6,LS2.......Im going to see if i can get it touch with a few of the guys that he has tuned for and get some feed back..... I do thank you all for the feed back on this information
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:52 AM   #19
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What's up with all this crazy talk of algorithms and such? Don't scare the guy! Just use efilive and the VE table builds itself

*just joking with Dsteck, things are definatly NOT that simple and I'm not saying hptunners is bad. Just some friendly razzing
HP Tuners is definitely cheaper, and the Virtual VE feature of EFI Live just doesn't justify changing for me. Both are incredibly capable interfaces, though! I've heard that the Virtual VE in EFI Live doesn't always back-calculate correctly, though. I have zero proof of that, and it's purely hearsay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratlover View Post
Not just in tunning but everything, I've had enough "pros" that do subpar work that I've stopped trusting people just because they have a big shop, lotsa marketing $ spent, or lotsa previous customers. And while "you get what you pay for" rings true some times......I've also spent big $ for crap.

Some pros are very good, some ok, and some just suck. JMOH in what I have delt with from tuners.

I would trust some "back yard" tuners over a lot of "pros" is all I'm saying. A lot of guys buy a tuning system and go do tunes for people though and screw stuff up royaly though.

Please disregard the rant.....I'm replying from a bar lol
If it's split into "pros" and "backyard" tuners, I fall in the backyard category. I do it as side work, and got into it because I didn't trust anyone to do my Z06. I have found that a LOT of shop tuners get blown away by the abilities of private tuners because the private tuners are more concerned with results and less about the money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danhr View Post
this is very true. a lot of big name tuners kind of just half ass their way through tunes, because there is no real "quality control" for tunes, or a way to get a refund.... you kind of just give them money and hope for the best.

i'd prefer to find someone who knows what they are doing fairly well, and have them thoroughly go through my tune. I'm going to end up driving 8 hours to a guy to get this done in my car, but in my opinion, it is well worth it. and is much better solution than having a big name person just half ass their way through my car, to get to the next.
This has been what I've seen. Some shops are more concerned with just getting a car in the door, and then getting them right back out with just a dyno number. That's why so many of them just wreck the PE table and hardly change anything else. Shops that spend lots of time getting EVERYTHING dialed in have to end up charging a ton of money, which people aren't willing to pay . I can totally understand why shops will half-ass a tune... it's because customers want a dyno number, but want everything for free. In order for a shop to do a GOOD tune, they need many hours to precisely take care of everything, and most shops will charge $100-$125 per hour for this. It could easily hit $1000. People that do side jobs have no problem making far less money while doing a full job. That's just my experience.

I'm not saying that ALL shops do half-ass tunes. Just most. There's ONE shop around St. Louis with a tuner who knows exactly what he's doing. It's not cheap, but you definitely get what you pay for.
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