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Old 05-11-2010, 12:02 PM   #18
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When tuning we can tell if a customer is running Shell gas very easily. We recommend and use BP 93 in all of our stuff without any issues.
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:04 PM   #19
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It must vary from region to region, because in St. Louis, Shell has been the most consistent and least likely to ping.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:58 PM   #20
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It must vary from region to region, because in St. Louis, Shell has been the most consistent and least likely to ping.
There is a Shell walking distance from our R&D facility here.

It is very common for customers to fill up there on their way to drop off a vehicle for Beta testing, and we have gotten really good at draining the tank as a result.

One of these cars was a 2007 Vette. Bone stock. Threw it on the dyno to baseline it, and the pull sounded terrible. Checked the log, tons of KR everywhere from the moment we went WOT.

Cooled it off, tried again, still knocking. Took it for a little spin up 95, drained most of the fresh Shell, and ran it over to the Mobil around the corner. 10 minutes later the car was up 20 rwhp (back to where it should have been), and it responded positively to more timing once we started tuning it.

Sure, it could be their tanks, or the local supply, but I always think it best to find a good brand locally, log the heck out of it, and never take for granted that it is 'good.'...
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:01 PM   #21
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Like I said, around St. Louis, Shell is the most forgiving as far as knock retard... Mobil is good too. Other places tend to end up knocking without changing anything else in the calibration.

The other problem is some stations of the same brand sell 91 at some locations, and 93 at others... yet people don't bother to check. There's all kinds of variability... but making a blanket statement that one brand sucks across the nation is extreme.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:25 PM   #22
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no it's not... if it's bad in 95% of locations, why try to figure out exactly which 5% are ok and have to remember what state those good couple were in if you're ever driving through it... avoid 'em all, and you have no problems. there are better brands, better quality of gas around than shell, no matter where ya live...

it must be good just in your state then...

everyone else I've ever gotten data logs from, from all the other states they were in from around the U.S. (a LOT) - Shell gas was always, consistently, the cause of all their KR issues... once that crap was gone/out and replaced, everything was fine and back to normal...

and it's easy to tell when they've put in a tank of Shell during the tuning process as well... one time their data log will be fine, and then the next time, there will be a lot of KR in it... and I immediately know, and ask them, if they've put in Shell gas... and I get "holy shit, how'd you know that?!"... as FLP said above.. it's easy to tell when Shell is being used...
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:43 PM   #23
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:56 PM   #24
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
Like I said, around St. Louis, Shell is the most forgiving as far as knock retard... Mobil is good too. Other places tend to end up knocking without changing anything else in the calibration.

The other problem is some stations of the same brand sell 91 at some locations, and 93 at others... yet people don't bother to check. There's all kinds of variability... but making a blanket statement that one brand sucks across the nation is extreme.
Blanket statements like that are amazing. No problems with Shell around my part of the world either.

Would it be just as fair to say it must be the tune vs. the fuel? That would be just as fair wouldn't it?
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:30 PM   #26
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That would be just as fair wouldn't it?
If you can get gas at every other local station, and get no KR, then go to one station and get KR, then NO, it is not the tune.

Maybe you missed my story about the STOCK tuned Vette that lost 20 rwhp due to KR as a result of poor quality fuel...was that GMs fault or the gas....?

Why is everyone so on edge around here all the time?
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Old 05-11-2010, 05:49 PM   #27
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If you can get gas at every other local station, and get no KR, then go to one station and get KR, then NO, it is not the tune.

Maybe you missed my story about the STOCK tuned Vette that lost 20 rwhp due to KR as a result of poor quality fuel...was that GMs fault or the gas....?

Why is everyone so on edge around here all the time?
I agree with what you are saying here as it isn't referencing a particular brand. Stations (even in the same brand) can have differing issues with fuel as their tanks can be compromised in some manner (water, rust, bad mixers, etc.). Saying that KR can cause a loss of HP is absolutely legitimate. What I had a problem with was the blanket statement that all Shell gas was bad.

I was simply trying to make a point (that blanket statements were not sensible) in mentioning a tune...talk about being on edge...
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Old 05-11-2010, 06:11 PM   #28
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I agree with what you are saying here as it isn't referencing a particular brand. Stations (even in the same brand) can have differing issues with fuel as their tanks can be compromised in some manner (water, rust, bad mixers, etc.). Saying that KR can cause a loss of HP is absolutely legitimate. What I had a problem with was the blanket statement that all Shell gas was bad.

I was simply trying to make a point (that blanket statements were not sensible) in mentioning a tune...talk about being on edge...
Agreed.

It is easy for Lew to make that statement, as he does lots of custom tunes, and see as many logs as anyone (I cringe to think about how many logs he goes through in a week).
It got to the point that we recommend Mobil or BP/Amoco to our customers just to try to avoid KR issues, since we have had issues with Shell all over the country. There are always a few people that have good luck with it though for sure.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:50 PM   #29
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he's just trying to help guys. Easy, easy now! LOL ya'll need alcohol.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:28 PM   #30
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ok!

i tried the 93 tune with 91 octane... at WOT i got about 1.4 TKSR around 5500rpm, just a spike but showed up on multiple gears. plus when i was coasting, then pressed the gas a little i got 8.0 TKSR, and i think i kinda felt it bog down a bit. this is why i used to blend race fuel with each tank, to keep this from happening.

now i see the reason for both separate tunes... i had half a bottle of lucas octane booster from last year, so i put that in the tank with the tank half full... all is well and no more knock, i re-logged it to make sure!

lucas doesnt sell gimmicks, but i wouldn't recommend it for regular use (MMT will slowly destroy emissions system parts over time with repeated use)... for those with access to race fuel, blend that with the 91 octane. there are plenty of blending tables on the net to help you with what you can get

i only have 2 more months of this crap in OK until i return to TX where they like 93!!!
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Old 05-12-2010, 02:19 AM   #31
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ok!

i tried the 93 tune with 91 octane... at WOT i got about 1.4 TKSR around 5500rpm, just a spike but showed up on multiple gears. plus when i was coasting, then pressed the gas a little i got 8.0 TKSR, and i think i kinda felt it bog down a bit. this is why i used to blend race fuel with each tank, to keep this from happening.

now i see the reason for both separate tunes... i had half a bottle of lucas octane booster from last year, so i put that in the tank with the tank half full... all is well and no more knock, i re-logged it to make sure!

lucas doesnt sell gimmicks, but i wouldn't recommend it for regular use (MMT will slowly destroy emissions system parts over time with repeated use)... for those with access to race fuel, blend that with the 91 octane. there are plenty of blending tables on the net to help you with what you can get

i only have 2 more months of this crap in OK until i return to TX where they like 93!!!

that's great to hear! but i thoght it said it will not harm 02 sensors? i just can't win.
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Old 05-12-2010, 08:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by RedJewel2SS View Post
ok!

i tried the 93 tune with 91 octane... at WOT i got about 1.4 TKSR around 5500rpm, just a spike but showed up on multiple gears. plus when i was coasting, then pressed the gas a little i got 8.0 TKSR, and i think i kinda felt it bog down a bit. this is why i used to blend race fuel with each tank, to keep this from happening.

now i see the reason for both separate tunes... i had half a bottle of lucas octane booster from last year, so i put that in the tank with the tank half full... all is well and no more knock, i re-logged it to make sure!

lucas doesnt sell gimmicks, but i wouldn't recommend it for regular use (MMT will slowly destroy emissions system parts over time with repeated use)... for those with access to race fuel, blend that with the 91 octane. there are plenty of blending tables on the net to help you with what you can get

i only have 2 more months of this crap in OK until i return to TX where they like 93!!!
I never get concerned with KR if it's under 2º total taken out, because a) you won't feel it and b) it can typically be attributed to noise (something hitting the engine/exhaust, valve train noise, etc). The 8º taken out when giving throttle after coasting is possibly burst knock, and even C16 won't stop that from happening. There's a different between knock retard and burst knock retard. Knock retard is a result of actual knock events, and is a reactive solution. Burst knock retard is a proactive solution that pulls timing out during extreme engine load changes (read: steep throttle changes) in anticipation of knock.
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Old 05-12-2010, 12:41 PM   #33
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In regards to gasoline quality? Most brands are merely additive packages as the base fuel is taken from the same storage tank as any one else's most of the time and in most places.

Sometimes fuel brands hit the additive correctly and sometimes they miss. Sometimes it's a region by region issue.

Where it's allowed, ethanol percentage can whack the optimum AFR on a brand by brand basis. When gas is cheaper, the ethanol percentage usually falls under the "legal" limits allowed but when gas gets high enough, it's a Forrest Gump box of Choc'lets deal.. Ethanol is not big on MPG, but if you can reliably tune for a fixed amount, you can roll with the octane boost. Unfortunately, it's a moving target where allowed.
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Old 05-14-2010, 01:14 AM   #34
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Hey Monte 92 octane??

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did you ever log the total knock spark retard? I bet you were getting a lot of KR with the shell... so that's why the chevron feels even better that that did... and the lucas stuff is raising your octane from 91 to about 94.6... so if you're going to use it all the time, then you'd be ok to run the diablo 93 tune in the car...


and like I replied to your PM... Shell gas is crap... causes a lot of KR... have seen it in every single log from people that used shell in their vehicles, and can tell when they've switched from a good gas to Shell too - cuz all of a sudden, there will be a bunch of KR in their data...

you want to use mobil, exxon, sunoco, amoco, bp, or chevron... those are good fuels that tend to yield the best results...

also... go back to stock/original for a few days.. then install the 91 tune... you'll notice a difference compared to stock... not as much as the diablo/93 tune, but there's still a difference.
I ordered a prediter, will be here tomorrow. What tune do you use with 92???? I keep hearing about 91 and 93. We have 92 in Oregon
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