Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Night Owl LED
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons

Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-09-2010, 08:09 AM   #1
SGOS252382


 
SGOS252382's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 6,287
Mast Motorsports Cam Slugfest (VVT vs LS3)

This is from the GM High Tech Performance Magazine (July 2010)

In the article Mast Motorsports stage 1-3 cams were dyno tested on an L99 and LS3. What I found interesting was that the L99 VVT Mast Motorsports stage 1 and stage 2 cams made more HP and TQ below 5100 rpms than the LS3. Above 5100 rpms they made basically identical power.

The LS3 did make more HP/TQ with the stage 3 cam by 10.4 hp, 8.2 ft. lbs at higher rpms.

I keep hearing about guys doing LS3 conversions, but after reading this article there seems to be some advantages to the VVT cams.
__________________

Last edited by SGOS252382; 05-09-2010 at 08:26 AM.
SGOS252382 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 08:40 AM   #2
trudawg660

 
Drives: 2006 Dodge Charger / 2SS IOM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,642
how can you put a stage 3 cam on a l99. i thought the AFM cylinder's strings couldn't take it and once u replace them and that deletes AFM. i might be showing my ignorance so don't judge me lol.
trudawg660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 03:02 PM   #3
SGOS252382


 
SGOS252382's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 6,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by trudawg660 View Post
how can you put a stage 3 cam on a l99. i thought the AFM cylinder's strings couldn't take it and once u replace them and that deletes AFM. i might be showing my ignorance so don't judge me lol.

You might know more than I do.

I'm just going off the magazine. They show a stage 3 dyno graph comparing the L99 vs LS3.
Mast Motorsports uses different cams in their packages. The L99 cams have lower lift and have lower compression. Even with a smaller cam, the L99 makes similar HP.
__________________
SGOS252382 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 04:28 PM   #4
Sack Rat 2SS

 
Sack Rat 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Silver SS/RS, Man 6
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 828
[QUOTE=
Mast Motorsports uses different cams in their packages. The L99 cams have lower lift and have lower compression. Even with a smaller cam, the L99 makes similar HP.[/QUOTE]

Just read the article and very interesting. Article talks to VVT only and I did not read anything bout AFM or replacing the lifters related to AFM. They were reving the Stage 1, 2, and 3 L99 and LS-3 motors to about 6800 rpm except on the baseline test of the L-99. They replaced valve springs with the replacement cams. Stage 3 comparison used ported heads with the Stage 3 cams to aid heavier breathing needed. Stock heads with Stage 1 and 2 cams. Cams were slightly different between L99 and LS-3 with all three Stages. Also Mast Motorsports limits by half or more the amount the cam phaser can alter cam timing. Stock is 52 degrees of rotation and Mast limits the travel to 32 or 22 degrees depending on cam selected. A mechanical limiter is inserted into the cam phaser to accomplish this. I would assume the ECM has some tuning done to it as well but not sure. Lastly, the article makes the VVT switch appear very attractive for L99 owners. However, we know nothing of the tunes used so we really do not know how to compare the validity of the test done for the magazine. Looks like help is on the way for L-99's.
__________________
Silver 2SS/RS Man/6
CTS-V front 6-Piston Calipers,
ADM Dual Fuel Delivery
GM 3.91 Rear Gears
Sack Rat 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 04:35 PM   #5
mlee
H-Town Camaro Club
 
mlee's Avatar
 
Drives: Number Twenty-Three
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 24,680
__________________
.
mlee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 04:56 PM   #6
silverfox
 
silverfox's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 camaro ss
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: portsmouth,va.
Posts: 502
L99 with mast stage 1 cam on a procharged 2ss auto. I was running out of fuel at 538rwhp on the dyno and got the fastlane duece pump and went to 573rwhp. I used the trunion upgrade kit from comp because i blew a stock rocker at the strip and i would reccomend the 7.4 pushrods for l99 usage.
Attached Images
 
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Va.Speed built 427 stroker
LS2 Darton sleeved 427 stroker.Callies dragonslayer crankshaft. Callies I beam rods. Wiseco blower pistons. Mast cnc 12 degree big bore ls3 heads-2.2 intake &1.6 ex. 6 bolt 270cc-.750 deck. Lunati link bar lifters.T&D roller rockers.COMP-VA. Speed special cam 605 lift, 238dur. Procharger F1R @15psi. ARH headers with custom 3'' exhaust all the way.Magnaflow mufflers. QTP cutouts.Rossler built 6l80e trans. DSS 1400hp axles.
Pfadt suspension.-Coilovers, sway bars,motor mounts,trailing arms. Aeromotive eliminater pump.
907rwhp.
silverfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 05:04 PM   #7
silverfox
 
silverfox's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 camaro ss
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: portsmouth,va.
Posts: 502
This mast stage 1 cam specs are;
duration@ .50 220/234
lift 573/588
lsa 116 deg
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Va.Speed built 427 stroker
LS2 Darton sleeved 427 stroker.Callies dragonslayer crankshaft. Callies I beam rods. Wiseco blower pistons. Mast cnc 12 degree big bore ls3 heads-2.2 intake &1.6 ex. 6 bolt 270cc-.750 deck. Lunati link bar lifters.T&D roller rockers.COMP-VA. Speed special cam 605 lift, 238dur. Procharger F1R @15psi. ARH headers with custom 3'' exhaust all the way.Magnaflow mufflers. QTP cutouts.Rossler built 6l80e trans. DSS 1400hp axles.
Pfadt suspension.-Coilovers, sway bars,motor mounts,trailing arms. Aeromotive eliminater pump.
907rwhp.
silverfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 05:09 PM   #8
silverfox
 
silverfox's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 camaro ss
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: portsmouth,va.
Posts: 502
I need to add that this cam is user friendly on the street but comes on strong at above 3000rpm. You may need to up your idle rpm for this.
__________________
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Va.Speed built 427 stroker
LS2 Darton sleeved 427 stroker.Callies dragonslayer crankshaft. Callies I beam rods. Wiseco blower pistons. Mast cnc 12 degree big bore ls3 heads-2.2 intake &1.6 ex. 6 bolt 270cc-.750 deck. Lunati link bar lifters.T&D roller rockers.COMP-VA. Speed special cam 605 lift, 238dur. Procharger F1R @15psi. ARH headers with custom 3'' exhaust all the way.Magnaflow mufflers. QTP cutouts.Rossler built 6l80e trans. DSS 1400hp axles.
Pfadt suspension.-Coilovers, sway bars,motor mounts,trailing arms. Aeromotive eliminater pump.
907rwhp.
silverfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 08:38 PM   #9
SS-screamer
 
Drives: SIM RS/SS L99
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sunshine State
Posts: 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfox View Post
I need to add that this cam is user friendly on the street but comes on strong at above 3000rpm. You may need to up your idle rpm for this.
Does it have a nice lope
SS-screamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2010, 11:51 PM   #10
2010 SSRS



 
2010 SSRS's Avatar
 
Drives: 3 V8 Camaros
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The Ocean State
Posts: 123,973
cool
__________________
Jannetty Racing JRE Street Package
2010 SSRS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 12:01 AM   #11
StlRomAniaN

 
StlRomAniaN's Avatar
 
Drives: IOM 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,372
Send a message via Yahoo to StlRomAniaN
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-screamer View Post
Does it have a nice lope
For some reason I don't like cam lope? I like the sleepers that are quiet then roar with the pedal down. Just my personal taste.
__________________


Pre-ordered on October 24, 2008

Inferno Orange Metallic 2SS/RS
Auto w/ TAPshift
=
funnnnnn, just like Megan Fox!

1100 = Preliminary Order: 10-24-09
2000 = Accepted by GM: 3-30-09
2500 = Referenced: 3-31-09
3000 = Accepted by Production Control: 4-18-09
3100 = Sequenced: 5-1-09
3300 = Scheduled For Production: 5-12-09
3400 = Broadcast: 5-19-09
3800 = Produced: 5-27-09 VIN# 12768
4000 = Available to Ship: --
4200 = Shipped: --
5000 = Delivered to Dealer: --
6000 = Delivered to Customer: --
StlRomAniaN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 12:13 AM   #12
The 2010 Sin
CorkTulsa.com
 
The 2010 Sin's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS BLK, 2013 2SS CRT
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Tulsa, Oklahoma
Posts: 2,847
then dont do a cam.. just do a kenne bell, "set it and forget it!" lol :-)
__________________
The 2010 Sin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-10-2010, 05:16 PM   #13
SGOS252382


 
SGOS252382's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 6,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by StlRomAniaN View Post
For some reason I don't like cam lope? I like the sleepers that are quiet then roar with the pedal down. Just my personal taste.

That's all in the tune. I had a real strong cam lope on my GTO. I loved it and so did everyone else that heard it. But before I sold my GTO, I had my tuner tune my car so it would idle as close to stock as possible. I was amazed at how he had my car running.
I just assumed it would have a strong cam lope just because the car had a more aggressive cam in it. But that's not always the case. Most cams can be tuned to idle very close to stock like.
__________________
SGOS252382 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-11-2010, 01:02 PM   #14
WheelmanSS
Logic is dead
 
WheelmanSS's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 1,793
Send a message via AIM to WheelmanSS
Quote:
Originally Posted by SGOS252382 View Post
That's all in the tune. I had a real strong cam lope on my GTO. I loved it and so did everyone else that heard it. But before I sold my GTO, I had my tuner tune my car so it would idle as close to stock as possible. I was amazed at how he had my car running.
I just assumed it would have a strong cam lope just because the car had a more aggressive cam in it. But that's not always the case. Most cams can be tuned to idle very close to stock like.
That was probably done by raising the value in the TPS and increasing the idle. The "lope" of a cam is a combination of its duration and lobe separation angle... Those are physicaly aspects you just can't remove or "tune out".
__________________
2010 Camaro 2SS/RS (LS3)
573 RWHP 498 RWTQ
- Vortech V3 Supercharger
- Kooks Stepped Headers, Magnaflow 16580
- Suspension by Pfadt, Hotchkis.

2007 Trailblazer SS- Sold
2001 Trans Am WS6 431 RWHP 408 RWTQ - Sold
1994 Camaro Z28 - Sold
WheelmanSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 10:43 AM   #15
JustinCesler
 
Drives: Trans Am
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tampa
Posts: 40
Hello everyone,

Glad to see a quality discussion about the Mast article, hopefully both LS3 and L99 owners can take something positive from it. In regards to the discussion about tuning and AFM, I contacted Horace Mast, owner of Mast Motorsports and had him confirm for me what I already suspected. Please see below for his response. If anyone has any further questions pertaining to the article, please feel free to ask.

Quote:
Justin,
Since we supply GM modified crate engines with these cams I have performed full dyno calibrations for these combinations. What this means is that I have tuned the VVT timing, spark, and Air/Fuel ratio for MBT “Minimum Timing for Best Torque”. So each engine had the same Air/Fuel ratio and the same optimization for best torque “horsepower”. I did not just throw the cam in there and perform dyno pulls to see what happened. Results would be very skewed if that were the case and that’s not how we test. The GM VVT phaser has actually had some revisions. The original phaser had 52 degress of total movement capability and the new phaser has 42. We recommend installing our 30 degree phaser restrictors for stock engines because of the flat top piston design and the larger camshaft duration. On built engines with larger valve reliefs we recommend our 20 degree phaser restrictor. Our ECM can control the cam to the capability of the phaser but there is way more movement in the phaser that can be utilized to increase power.

On the Stage I and Stage II cams some customers choose to retain the AFM lifters. We always recommend removing them and replacing them with standard lifters. Some choose to retain the stock lifters because they do not want to remove the heads. If this is the case the AFM functions should be shut of via programming by EFI Live, HP Tuners, ect. The Stage III for the L99 actually comes with lifters to replace the AFM lifters. The Stage III cam is not compatible with the stock AFM lifters.

Thanks,
Horace Mast
Justin Cesler | GM High Tech Performance
JustinCesler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 11:02 AM   #16
trudawg660

 
Drives: 2006 Dodge Charger / 2SS IOM
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,642
so i was right
trudawg660 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 05:22 PM   #17
SGOS252382


 
SGOS252382's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: S.W. Florida
Posts: 6,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by trudawg660 View Post
so i was right
You can't use the stock lifters with the stage 3 cam. But you can use the stage 3 cam on an L99. That's what I got out of it.
Quote: The Stage III for the L99 actually comes with lifters to replace the AFM lifters
__________________
SGOS252382 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 05:39 PM   #18
IConnection
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Horsham,Pa.
Posts: 222
So you need to turn off active fuel management but can still retain the L99 lifters with the Stage 1 cam?
IConnection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2010, 06:14 PM   #19
Sack Rat 2SS

 
Sack Rat 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Silver SS/RS, Man 6
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 828
Quote:
Originally Posted by InjectionConnection View Post
So you need to turn off active fuel management but can still retain the L99 lifters with the Stage 1 cam?

I agree. AFM off with all Mast VVT cams. However, you will not be raising the redline or shift points when retaining the L99 AFM lifters. Raising redline may not help much anyway. I would offer that the cost of the parts to pull heads and replace lifters, head gaskets, head bolts is not too pricey compared to changing out the cam. Plus the labor of course. If you are going to do the VVT Stage 1 or 2 cam then do it properly by sucking up a little more expense and labor costs. I know, it is easy for me to spend your cash. Now, from the article and post above I get the built motor for a Stage 3 requires deeper valve reliefs in pistons for clearance because Mast allows more VVT cam travel with Stage3, ie 20 degree phase restrictor. Stage 1 and 2 use a 30 degree phase restrictor (less cam travel). Still all great news for L99 owners.
__________________
Silver 2SS/RS Man/6
CTS-V front 6-Piston Calipers,
ADM Dual Fuel Delivery
GM 3.91 Rear Gears
Sack Rat 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 12:14 AM   #20
thesnoopster


 
thesnoopster's Avatar
 
Drives: '10 SIM SS/A6 - '12 SIM Equinox LT
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 3,626
So im assuming 30 degree phaser is better for cam movement for something like the stage 2 i am assuming ... im so new to this VVT stuff ....
__________________
2010 SIM Camaro 1SS/A6

Mods: "93 Octane and a baby seat..." TunedByFrost/EFI Performance,LLC @ PAS "You gotta love me ... or leave me alone"
thesnoopster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 12:26 AM   #21
IConnection
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Horsham,Pa.
Posts: 222
I honestly would like to see a VVT setup use the L99 lifters...

I will install the parts myself but if I could get away with using the L99 lifters that would be better of course.

I think its time to call Comp Cams and see what D??? P??? has to say about the VVT lifters and what they've found..
I do know that Comp's VVT Cams seem to b is running less lift possibly due to their phaser timing or the VVT lifters themselves?

I agree, this L99 stuff is interesting.
IConnection is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 08:21 AM   #22
rayhawk

 
rayhawk's Avatar
 
Drives: Trailblazer SS
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 881
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sack Rat 2SS View Post
I agree. AFM off with all Mast VVT cams. However, you will not be raising the redline or shift points when retaining the L99 AFM lifters. Raising redline may not help much anyway. I would offer that the cost of the parts to pull heads and replace lifters, head gaskets, head bolts is not too pricey compared to changing out the cam. Plus the labor of course. If you are going to do the VVT Stage 1 or 2 cam then do it properly by sucking up a little more expense and labor costs. I know, it is easy for me to spend your cash. Now, from the article and post above I get the built motor for a Stage 3 requires deeper valve reliefs in pistons for clearance because Mast allows more VVT cam travel with Stage3, ie 20 degree phase restrictor. Stage 1 and 2 use a 30 degree phase restrictor (less cam travel). Still all great news for L99 owners.
You have the last part backwards, Stage 3 (20 degrees) restricts the cam timing movement to a lower value to prevent interference. Stage 1 & 2 is 30 degrees, which is more movement.
__________________
Hooters, hooters, yum yum yum, hooters, hooters on a girl thats dumb.
-Al Bundy

07 2WD Trailblazer SS, LS1 E-fans, 4" FWI, pcmforless tune
72 VW Beetle, 2275cc, Dual 44 IDF's
rayhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 09:36 AM   #23
Sack Rat 2SS

 
Sack Rat 2SS's Avatar
 
Drives: Silver SS/RS, Man 6
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 828
On built engines with larger valve reliefs we recommend our 20 degree phaser restrictor. Our ECM can control the cam to the capability of the phaser but there is way more movement in the phaser that can be utilized to increase power.

You have the last part backwards, Stage 3 (20 degrees) restricts the cam timing movement to a lower value to prevent interference. Stage 1 & 2 is 30 degrees, which is more movement

Well I wondered about the two phase restrictors. I took it that the term "20 degree phase restricter" meant it restricted travel to 20 degrees. What is said above is that the 20 degree restrictor reduces the cam travel to 20 degrees. I can buy that but wish Mast or GM Tech Perf would be more specific to avoid ANY confusion. I still like that the dialogue has begun to better understand cam phasing from the tuners on L99 engines.
__________________
Silver 2SS/RS Man/6
CTS-V front 6-Piston Calipers,
ADM Dual Fuel Delivery
GM 3.91 Rear Gears
Sack Rat 2SS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 01:38 PM   #24
PatrickfromMD
 
PatrickfromMD's Avatar
 
Drives: Navigator/Corvette/2010 Camaro
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 415
I really liked the article. Horace suggested either of the two grinds below for my L99 which the wife drives, and that I may want to force feed in the future.
The 2nd one is the Stage 1, and the other is a slightly milder version which I’m leaning toward for myself. (e.g. the 914-202)

Name:  table.jpg
Views: 1957
Size:  22.1 KB



The issue I was getting from Comp, was that the VVT cams needed a different base circle for the lobes using the AFM.
In their tests anything above .500 lift took the lifter out of the bore and the oil pressure dropped. In their initial testing they lost lifters this way.
What does not make sense with this analysis, is that if you have different base circles on the VVT cams, then you would not really be able to interchange lifters.
I’m assuming Mast has this base circle issue worked out (if there was an issue) as they are running lifts in the .560 range all the way up to .600.

Comp says they have good cams when you remove the AFM, but with the AFM intact, it seemed like theirs were a compromise at best. I had a long ongoing discussion with them from July last year, through January this year. At that point it had seemed that L99 cam development was starting to take a back seat to some other projects they were working on. I have not had a chance to get with them to see if anything has changed.

I’m continuing to watch mast as they seem to continue to move the technology forward, and they are getting more into the phasing tables (as seen by their reply to Justin) which I believe will provide additional benefits down the road.

Once I’m able to purchase a cam with a optimized phaser profile to load in to my EFILive, I think I’m there. I was one of those who wanted to retain the AFM, but with 22k miles on my car( with LT headers and 2 sets of mufflers), I’ve had enough of hearing the AFM kicking in and out, and will now pull the lifters with any proposed cam swap
__________________

***56K miles and still going strong***
2SS/RS IOM ext w/cyber grey stripes, tinted windows, IO int Auto
ProTorque prototype Converter, Chuck Mosello of Westchester Corvettes Custom Tune
T&T installed SLP Longtubes, Powerflow X Pipe, and Powerflow axle back
JL 10W3 in custom side sub box, new door tweeters, Alpine 5ch 600 watt
T&T configured ACS front Fascia w/ heritage grill, splitter, dual color halos, , led markers, taillight bezels , all accented in CGM
Gary Custom Z vented fenders. Vararam ver 2
PatrickfromMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2010, 02:41 PM   #25
IConnection
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Horsham,Pa.
Posts: 222
Thanks for the info MD
I for one have no issue turning off my AFM but I really wanted a cam that could use the VVT lifters.
IConnection is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
LS3 engine specifications Tran Wiki 3 10-06-2010 11:56 PM
Video of ARH with Mast Stage II VVT cam SRT10KLLR Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 20 09-28-2010 09:19 PM
LS3 cam question 4xchamp Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 17 05-04-2010 06:41 PM
LLT engine specifications Tran Wiki 2 03-29-2010 11:06 AM
Can a Superchagered Z28 have a lumpey CAM, and sound like a NA heads and cammed LS3 D-Unit Forced Induction - V8 12 07-29-2008 04:34 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.