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Old 05-10-2010, 01:49 PM   #1
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Dyno results

))

Last edited by gearhead440; 06-06-2014 at 12:11 PM. Reason: data is questionable
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:04 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead440 View Post
The complete thread is located here: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82034

This is an excerpt and a copy of my dyno runs on the Total Performance dyno in Monroe, NC, just east of Charlotte, NC.

With dyno conditions of 96Fg, 13% humidity, max stock numbers were: 362hp, 365 ft-lbs. I realize that others have gotten numbers in the 370’s but this is what we received.

Swapping out a K&N air filter that mates to the stock air box, P/N 33-2434, and New Era Performance tube that mates to the stock air box: 370hp, 361 ft-lbs. 8hp increase, torque apparently slipped slightly at max. Combined cost: $145, cost per hp: $18.13 / hp.

Swapping stock plug wires for Granatelli plug wires, P/N 28-1811S: 381hp, 364 ft-lbs. 11hp increase, max torque still around where we started on initial run but torque increase throught the rpm band. Yes, we gained a solid 11hp by changing out the spark plug wires and I can honestly say that everyone there was surprised and pleased at the gains. Cost (from Summit Racing): $130, cost per hp: $11.82 / hp.

Total increase from stock: 19hp, max torque remained the same but the average torque and hp (area under the curve) were increased noticably (~ 15 ft-lbs) across the usable rpm band.

Total cost: $275, cost per hp: $14.47 / hp.

We increased power by 19hp and torque by approximately 15 ft-lbs across the rpm band with our bolt-ons. We can really tell a difference in the sound and performance of the car and are extremely happy with our results and that is what matters the most to us, regardless of the numbers .
I am certainly not here to rain on your Parade or Pop your balloons, but you can NOT do comparison with one pull for each change, you must do 3 to 4 pulls for each condition to verify repeatability.

Your baseline numbers are low due to the fact that you only did one pull,
LS3 cars consistently make between 372 and 378 RWHP fully warmed up, and I stress Fully Warmed up, 195 degrees water temp and 200 degrees Oil temp.

There is 10 hp in the oil temp alone.

I also See Torque dips in your curve this indicates the Knock sensor pulling timing probably due to bad fuel giving inconsistent readings.

I believe that the gains you saw were about 5 RWHP given all my experience with LS3 Camaros and that came from the New Era Tube and NOT the Wires.

Spark Plug Wires don't make HP unless the old ones are BAD, same goes for spark plugs.

Here is what I suggest you do to know for sure.

Do 5 Pulls making sure you get 2 back to back Identical runs with the stock wires then do the same with the aftermarket wires then repeat with the stock wires and tell me what you get.

Stock LS3 with the New Era tube will Make 381 RWHP with Nothing Else this is a fact.

I am sorry but the internet is full of this kind of Poor Data Collection just to sell product to unsuspecting individuals.

Ted.
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Old 05-10-2010, 02:23 PM   #3
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yeah, what he said. Seriously, Ted showed this to be conclusively true when doing his CAI tests. I hope you're right, but I doubt it.
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:45 PM   #4
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After 2 hours in traffic at 95F temps just to get to the dyno, I would imagine that the car was as warmed up as it would ever get but I certainly not the expert in this field. I noticed the dips also and had 93 octane in the tank. I suppose I can use a different gas station than the one I normally use and see if that makes a difference.

There is no rain on my parade - I don't have a king's ransom invested in anything I've done to the car and there are great folks here who lend advise and encouragement. Regardless if it is plug wires and pipe or delta rays from the warp reactor, we still love the power of this car and the number is not what matters the most to us, it is the fun factor !

Thanks again,
GH

Last edited by gearhead440; 06-06-2014 at 12:12 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 05-10-2010, 08:49 PM   #5
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we still love the power of this car and the number is not what matters the most to us, it is the fun factor !

When its all said and done that's all the really matter's

TED,
Thanks just for being a part of this site and responding to all the questions and offering all the help that you continue to do. The fun factor of this car is great and I think having this site and people like you and many others adds to the fun factor ten fold.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearhead440 View Post
After 2 hours in traffic at 95F temps just to get to the dyno, I would imagine that the car was as warmed up as it would ever get but I certainly not the expert in this field. I noticed the dips also and had 93 octane in the tank. I suppose I can use a different gas station than the one I normally use and see if that makes a difference.

We did three back to back pulls with the stock wires and then did 2 pulls with the aftermarket wires. We did do 2 pulls with the new wires installed, but I didn't mention the first run results because we forgot to connect the computer sensor wire to the spark plug wire - third pull on the graph with no torque value. We broke one stock wire so I'll have to come up with one but I am already planning to take your advise, Ted, and see what the data says. Thanks for your valuable input and I'll post what I have as soon as I get more dyno time. If I understand what you are saying correctly, do 3 dyno runs with stock wires, 3 dyno runs with after market wires, then do 3 final pulls with stock wires, all else remains the same, and compare the results.

There is no rain on my parade - I don't have a king's ransom invested in anything I've done to the car and there are great folks here who lend advise and encouragement. Regardless if it is plug wires and pipe or delta rays from the warp reactor, we still love the power of this car and the number is not what matters the most to us, it is the fun factor !

Thanks again,
GH
I am Really Glad you didn't get defensive and accepted the post as I intended to be educational.

Correct on the Testing proceedure.

Ted.
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:00 AM   #7
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Dyno sheet: "STD" numbers may also be slightly different with an "SAE"
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:28 AM   #8
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thanks ted and jannetty for being on the forum.i always look forward to your input on these threads.i have learned a lot from you.
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:03 AM   #9
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lol.... as was previously said you gained nothing from plug wires.

Also get those graphs in SAE correction not STD.
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Old 05-11-2010, 12:10 PM   #10
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Knowledge is power, truth is unerring and education is fundamental to enlightenment. Those who do not learn from their mistakes are destined to repeat them.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:28 PM   #11
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well said!

Let me know when you get additional results and based on that new info, I may be interested in new wires, although I couldn't locate a 2010 Camaro SS application for them on the web.
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK360 View Post
lol.... as was previously said you gained nothing from plug wires.

Also get those graphs in SAE correction not STD.
Isn't STD the hp and tq data in part based on the particular atmospheric conditions at that exact time the dyno was performed? If that is the case, that to me would be a more accurate representation of power but on the other hand, it's my understanding that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers for other readers' benefit) is simply a formula for standardization of hp and tq numbers across the board, but does this standardize to certain atmospheric conditions?

that day it was 95-96 degrees and humid. those #'s should increase on a cooler, less humid day theoretically.
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Old 05-12-2010, 06:29 PM   #13
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Hey guys - I went back to Total Performance early this morning (was about 70) which is 20 degrees cooler than when we were all there. I pulled 560, a pickup of 40 hp. Nothing was different other than the car was cooler and the air temps were cooler. I'd suggest in future to organize another dyno day around cooler weather. Just my 2 cents. Thanks Thomas!
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Old 05-12-2010, 08:17 PM   #14
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heck yeah Barry! Nice #! I knew with cooler temps and lower humidity you'd pull more! We should all too. By the time I get back there, every day will pretty much be 90s and high humidity!

unfortunately it's hard to predict the weather in enough advance to give folks ample time to plan to go and with the summer approaching it may be a while before we get a cooler day again.
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Old 05-13-2010, 08:37 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun1 View Post
Isn't STD the hp and tq data in part based on the particular atmospheric conditions at that exact time the dyno was performed? If that is the case, that to me would be a more accurate representation of power but on the other hand, it's my understanding that SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers for other readers' benefit) is simply a formula for standardization of hp and tq numbers across the board, but does this standardize to certain atmospheric conditions?
There is an Uncorrected option, here are the differences I found between SAE/STD

SAE j1349 correction:
29.23 in/hg.
77 degree temp
0 percent humidity

Standard correction:
29.92 in/hg.
68 degree temp
0 percent humidity

That explains why STD numbers are typically a bit higher.

Since I have access to the runfiles from my latest dyno pulls I am able to open them in the dynojet viewer and adjust the correction factors and smoothing to see what the differences would have been.

Here are 3 graphs from my best NA pull.

SAE Numbers:


STD Numbers:


Uncorrected:
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Old 05-13-2010, 12:17 PM   #16
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thanks for that info SK360, helps alot
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Old 05-14-2010, 05:59 AM   #17
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Thanks for showing the difference between the "STD" and "SAE". I think a lot of people need to know this as no dyno is the same.

Good Post!!
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Old 05-14-2010, 07:53 AM   #18
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nice
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Old 05-21-2010, 08:21 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
I am certainly not here to rain on your Parade or Pop your balloons, but you can NOT do comparison with one pull for each change, you must do 3 to 4 pulls for each condition to verify repeatability.

Your baseline numbers are low due to the fact that you only did one pull,
LS3 cars consistently make between 372 and 378 RWHP fully warmed up, and I stress Fully Warmed up, 195 degrees water temp and 200 degrees Oil temp.

There is 10 hp in the oil temp alone.

I also See Torque dips in your curve this indicates the Knock sensor pulling timing probably due to bad fuel giving inconsistent readings.

I believe that the gains you saw were about 5 RWHP given all my experience with LS3 Camaros and that came from the New Era Tube and NOT the Wires.

Spark Plug Wires don't make HP unless the old ones are BAD, same goes for spark plugs.

Here is what I suggest you do to know for sure.

Do 5 Pulls making sure you get 2 back to back Identical runs with the stock wires then do the same with the aftermarket wires then repeat with the stock wires and tell me what you get.

Stock LS3 with the New Era tube will Make 381 RWHP with Nothing Else this is a fact.

I am sorry but the internet is full of this kind of Poor Data Collection just to sell product to unsuspecting individuals.

Ted.
Just saw this - how could plug wires go bad on a brand new car? - stock wires are 1000 ohm drop per 6inch and Granatelli wires are 0

that is where the power gains come from
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:10 PM   #20
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I know that this is an older thread that I'm resurrecting, but what happened here? It just died...

I've been privvy to the "power of plugs and wires" debate since back when Splitfire plugs were in vogue. Why hasn't anyone with access done a real dyno study on this?

Find a dyno
Run the car with stock ignition a few times to find a mean
Run the car with the aftermarket ignition a few times to find a mean
If the numbers don't speak for themselves, then run a significance test between both the list and aggregate values.

I'm really curious for some hard dyno data regarding plug wire changes on this age old debate. The plug wire industry talks about OHMS and whatnot, but wouldn't a dyno and gas mileage test simply be better?
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:25 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I know that this is an older thread that I'm resurrecting, but what happened here? It just died...

I've been privvy to the "power of plugs and wires" debate since back when Splitfire plugs were in vogue. Why hasn't anyone with access done a real dyno study on this?

Find a dyno
Run the car with stock ignition a few times to find a mean
Run the car with the aftermarket ignition a few times to find a mean
If the numbers don't speak for themselves, then run a significance test between both the list and aggregate values.

I'm really curious for some hard dyno data regarding plug wire changes on this age old debate. The plug wire industry talks about OHMS and whatnot, but wouldn't a dyno and gas mileage test simply be better?
Sounds like a job for IMJ.

The BIG problem is, any gains you MIGHT get can be attributed to variations from run to run or margin of error of the dyno. If you want to believe there's gains to be had, then by all means buy a set. People spend a lot more $$ on less gains. They do look nice and won't cause a problem, which you can't say about splitfires.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:36 PM   #22
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Still having a REALLY hard time believing that that you're gaining 19hp with plug wires...
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:14 PM   #23
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Quote:
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Sounds like a job for IMJ.

The BIG problem is, any gains you MIGHT get can be attributed to variations from run to run or margin of error of the dyno. If you want to believe there's gains to be had, then by all means buy a set. People spend a lot more $$ on less gains. They do look nice and won't cause a problem, which you can't say about splitfires.
I hear ya. I'm definitely not a subscribing believer to significant HP gains via aftermarket ignition wires and plugs on modern coil pack cars. But, for all of the claims that the ignition parts makers have made (and modified to be more accurate) over the years, I'd really like to see something empirical here.

I'd be happy to offer my car up as a guinea pig for real dyno tests on this stuff, but truth be told, it should be sponsored by the ignition companies if they really believed in their products. An ignition showdown if you will. I'd be impressed with the first company to step up and take part (MSD, Accel? You guys are industry leaders, how about it?).

Quote:
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Still having a REALLY hard time believing that that you're gaining 19hp with plug wires...
Agreed for modern and more recent applications, ya.
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Old 06-01-2012, 12:47 PM   #24
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I hear ya. I'm definitely not a subscribing believer to significant HP gains via aftermarket ignition wires and plugs on modern coil pack cars. But, for all of the claims that the ignition parts makers have made (and modified to be more accurate) over the years, I'd really like to see something empirical here.

I'd be happy to offer my car up as a guinea pig for real dyno tests on this stuff, but truth be told, it should be sponsored by the ignition companies if they really believed in their products. An ignition showdown if you will. I'd be impressed with the first company to step up and take part (MSD, Accel? You guys are industry leaders, how about it?).
Would you really trust MSD, Accel, Taylor, etc to post up results from THEIR testing? Maybe the fact that they're not posting up results should tell you something? Independent testing is where it's at. Anything other than that will be shrouded in controversy. The Tornado claims 25% increase in fuel mileage and 10ish hp increase. Splitfire claims 10+% increase in HP and better fuel economy as well. Obviously they did their own testing. Do you believe them as well?

If this were an older vehicle where each plug wire came from the distributor and was 2+feet long, i'd understand that the lowest resistance wires would work best. Our cars have a coil per cylinder and the plug wire is 6in long. I just don't see it.
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Old 06-01-2012, 01:14 PM   #25
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Power from plug wires is based as much, if not more, upon belief---not fact. Those who believe their wires make more power are going to believe that no matter what. Those that don't believe it are not going to believe--no matter what.

You could make a series of dyno runs on the same day and if you got higher numbers with the Voodoo (insert brand name here) wires the non-believers would say, well, your dyno runs were 30 minutes later and the temperature or humidity was lower/higher, or your oils was thicker/thinner, etc, etc. If the numbers were lower with the magic wires the non-believers would say "I told you so!" and athe believers would say "Yeah but our dyno runs were later/earlier in the day..." etc, etc.

No one is going to be convinced either way. I say if you like the wires spend YOUR money and get them. I got the MSD wires because I like the way they look, they were available and affordable. IN THEORY, I THINK I have a few more horsepower, but I don't care one way or the other.

My 2 cents.
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