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Old 05-02-2007, 02:29 AM   #101
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I still can't get by why people say this. You need to understand, I'm not bashing your uncle. But he is telling you what he has heard from the press, and hasn't kept up on the news. The LS2 will be dead as of 2008 +/- a year.
First, welcome to the site! and second...

Because that's what was said for the concept. And, it doesn't help that GM keeps making things that say LS2 on it like the new shirt I got a few weeks ago. We all know it's dead, but why in the heck does GM continue to market the LS2? Why don't they cut to the chase and just print a freakin shirt w/ Camaro...LS3...450hp??? GM...the LS2 is over.
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Old 05-02-2007, 02:57 AM   #102
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Hey guys i'm new here just thought i'd tell you what i've heard from my uncle on the subject.

-Zeta Platform
-Independent Rear
-6.0 Litre LS2 Pushrod Engine
-21in cast iron wheels front
-22in cast iron wheels rear
-14 antlock disks
-Sheet Metal and Fiber Glass Body

So from what I've heard from my uncle(who i consider my GM insider) it should be a light car. Just my two cents. Sorry if this has already been said and rejected but i didn't read everything yet. and yes I know that its not fact till its in production but i have to pass the time somehow...

---Calvin
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Old 05-02-2007, 07:41 AM   #103
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Because people believe it, AND because the "Camaro" isn't out yet. The Concept Camaro is. It's even listed on their site's as Concept Camaro and they tell you what IT has, not what the real one will have...(sigh)
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Old 05-02-2007, 12:52 PM   #104
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I know...just wishing they could cut to the chase already.
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Old 05-03-2007, 11:05 AM   #105
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Too True...
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Old 05-03-2007, 06:08 PM   #106
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The blower verson sounds to good to be true to me. I would be surprised to see GM do that.
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Old 05-04-2007, 03:55 AM   #107
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The blower verson sounds to good to be true to me. I would be surprised to see GM do that.
I was thinking the same thing but GM does have a lot of S/C'd veh's out there. They know what they are doing w/ a roots style blower. It supposedly is more reliable and offers better torque throughout the power curve. Everyone else is coming out with more power all the time and if GM can one up'em w/ a S/C, then why not? I'd go for the S/C any day.....just don't think the pocket book would allow for it.
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Old 05-04-2007, 11:02 AM   #108
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You know...S/C are great and all. But that is one of two things that makes me so proud of GM.

They make high power engines that are almost impossible for competition to beat using the same displacement, and these engines are most of the time - pushrod!. If GM were to go OHC or DOHC, they'd destroy the competition with the technology they have thanks to pushrod advancements!.

Second, on top of these "disadvantaged" engines(compared to the competition), they almost never use a supercharger on the higher end cars. i.e. Monte Carlo, Impala, Corvette, and most Camaro's, they achieve amazing power with pure displacement! I love the General....

The forigners are always pushing out as much power as they possibly can through dual blowers, and Cam advancement, and a whole host of other things because they don't know how else to get the numbers we gain relatively easily...

It makes me feel like I picked the right side...
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Old 05-04-2007, 01:49 PM   #109
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You know...S/C are great and all. But that is one of two things that makes me so proud of GM.

They make high power engines that are almost impossible for competition to beat using the same displacement, and these engines are most of the time - pushrod!. If GM were to go OHC or DOHC, they'd destroy the competition with the technology they have thanks to pushrod advancements!.

Second, on top of these "disadvantaged" engines(compared to the competition), they almost never use a supercharger on the higher end cars. i.e. Monte Carlo, Impala, Corvette, and most Camaro's, they achieve amazing power with pure displacement! I love the General....

The forigners are always pushing out as much power as they possibly can through dual blowers, and Cam advancement, and a whole host of other things because they don't know how else to get the numbers we gain relatively easily...

It makes me feel like I picked the right side...
What is the line? "There is no replacement for displacement!"
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Old 05-04-2007, 05:02 PM   #110
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GM's thinking with the Chevrolet line in the past has been, reliabilty and longevity. That's what makes me think it will be long shot for S/C verson. I would rather see a bigger displacement N/A motor than F/I. Iv'e always felt like the other brand (Ford) has had to rely on F/I to make their cars fast. I.E. the Cobra. Take the blower off of it what do you have? I guess I'm just to old school. I agree, There is no replacement for displacement!
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Old 05-04-2007, 05:23 PM   #111
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What is the line? "There is no replacement for displacement!"
I very much agree (and FWIW, so does my gf! )

My only complaint is that companies like BMW can make 500hp with 5 liters (in the new M5), whereas it takes GM 7 liters (in the LS7) to achieve the same power... They are either leaving a LOT on the table (~200hp) or they cannot make the most of the displacement they are using. That being said, the LS7 is actually LIGHTER than the S85 even though it has 40% more displacement!

___BMW S85 5-liter V-10___
WEIGHT - 529lbs (240kg)
POWER - 507hp (378kW) @ 7750rpm
TORQUE - 383 ftlb (520Nm) @ 6100rpm

___Corvette LS7 7 Liter V-8___

WEIGHT - 458lbs
POWER - 505 horsepower @ 6200 rpm
TORQUE - 475 lb.-ft. of torque @ 4800 rpm

Interesting comparison...

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Old 05-04-2007, 05:40 PM   #112
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Hopefully they do come out with a blown version of the new Camaro. Something to lay the GT500 to rest.

Plus the idea of a Camaro than can be modified to over 800hp on stock internals like the Terminator Cobras and GT500, one can only hope.

Food for thought, A kenne bell will put both the GT500 and the Terminator in the low 9s on their stock internals. Imagine the Camaro.

I would take something like that with a bow tie on it over a blue oval any day.




Also the stock longevity of a roots style blower setup is very good. Roots style blowers don't put as much stress on an engine as a turbo or centrifugal, and since they make so much power at very low RPMs when driven correctly they can actually improve fuel economy.
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Old 05-04-2007, 06:08 PM   #113
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I very much agree (and FWIW, so does my gf! )

My only complaint is that companies like BMW can make 500hp with 5 liters (in the new M5), whereas it takes GM 7 liters (in the LS7) to achieve the same power... They are either leaving a LOT on the table (~200hp) or they cannot make the most of the displacement they are using. That being said, the LS7 is actually LIGHTER than the S85 even though it has 40% more displacement!

___BMW S85 5-liter V-10___
WEIGHT - 529lbs (240kg)
POWER - 507hp (378kW) @ 7750rpm
TORQUE - 383 ftlb (520Nm) @ 6100rpm

___Corvette LS7 7 Liter V-8___

WEIGHT - 458lbs
POWER - 505 horsepower @ 6200 rpm
TORQUE - 475 lb.-ft. of torque @ 4800 rpm

Interesting comparison...

LSx

Yeah, but look at those torque numbers on the BMW... Horsepower is deceiving. All it is is a function of RPM and torque. Torque is where you "feel" the car, so i would take an engine with massive torque over an engine with far less torque but more HP any day of the week.

As for the weight, that is not at all suprising. You are comparing a V-10 to a V-8.... Displacement only means bigger holes, more cylinders means more parts and thus more weight.
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:06 AM   #114
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There are really two ways to make horsepower, torque and rpm. If a car can maintain torque at high rpm then it will make lots of power.

Look how high that BMW has to rev to make peak torque and horsepower. Really that is the only way for a lower displacement engine to make power is make the valve train good enough to handle high rpm. That or put in a blower. I also bet the compression ratio of that 5.0L BMW engine is pretty damn high.

I'm reasonably sure that BMW is also geared low enough because of its 8000 rpm redline that the car will still plant your ass in the seat, even if it doesn't have much torque compared to horsepower.

Remember gearing multiplies torque, so it is possible for a lower torque engine with really low gearing (numerically higher gear) to feel every bit as fast as a higher torque engine with really high gearing (numerically lower gear).
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Old 05-05-2007, 11:10 AM   #115
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GM's thinking with the Chevrolet line in the past has been, reliabilty and longevity. That's what makes me think it will be long shot for S/C verson. I would rather see a bigger displacement N/A motor than F/I. Iv'e always felt like the other brand (Ford) has had to rely on F/I to make their cars fast. I.E. the Cobra. Take the blower off of it what do you have? I guess I'm just to old school. I agree, There is no replacement for displacement!
As far as Ford, I like to play devils advocate with Ford, probably since I own one. But look at my sig and you will see what else I own.

Displacement is Ford's real problem, I agree. However I give them credit for squeezing anywhere from 300-320 bhp and 300-320 ft-lbs of torque from a puny little 281ci engine even when normally aspirated.

To get much beyond that they have had to factory supercharge the motor, but hey at least it is still a V8.
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Old 05-05-2007, 01:41 PM   #116
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Yeah, but look at those torque numbers on the BMW... Horsepower is deceiving. All it is is a function of RPM and torque. Torque is where you "feel" the car, so i would take an engine with massive torque over an engine with far less torque but more HP any day of the week.

As for the weight, that is not at all suprising. You are comparing a V-10 to a V-8.... Displacement only means bigger holes, more cylinders means more parts and thus more weight.
Weeeelll not so fast there... Let's look at this in greater detail:

Your correct, horsepower is (rpm*torque)/5252, so if you increase either engine speed or engine torque at a given speed, you have an increase in power... BUT all things are not equal.

Generating lots of torque requires strong engine internals... remember, torque comes from the force of the expanding gas acting on the piston head, connecting rod, and then acting on the crankshaft. Each of these must be stronger (read: heavier) to support this force... Additionally, the cylinder walls would need to be thicker to support the higher pressures in high displacement engine.

Given this fact, high-torque engines tend to be heavy, and slow (because the heavy engine internals can't spin as fast). This is why I was suprised the LS7 was lighter than the S85... given its large bore I would have expected the internal components to be heavy (making the engine heavy).

Engine torque is also less important than engine power.

Wait... let me explain (this is a pretty detailed look, forgive me if I ramble):

So lets say you have an engine that generates 1000ftlbs of torque, sounds like a lot doesn't it? Now, what if this engine could only spin to 2000rpm? (OK, its steam engine, just laugh and follow along) You would only be making 380 horsepower!

Now, if you have an engine that only makes 100 ftlbs, but can spin to 20,000rpm, you'll make the same power! That's right, 380hp. Some motorcycle engines can do this (I think a turbo Hayabusa has been dynoed at these levels). So you have the same power, but at much lower torque and much higher speed.

So you say you want 10,000 lbft of torque at the rear wheels?

Engine #1 [10,000 (at wheels)]/[1000 (at engine)] = 10:1 Gearbox Ratio

Engine #2 [10,000 (at wheels)]/[100 (at engine)] = 100:1 Gearbox Ratio

Either one of these gearboxes is easily designed and built with modern materials and technology...

Now for the punchline:

The difference in weight in the engines would be HUNDREDs of pounds (since a engine that can generate LOTS of torque would inherently have high cylinder pressures and large forces acting in it)

The difference in gearbox weight? MAYBE a hundred pounds... probably much less. Gears are VERY good at torque multiplication, and so can increase effective torque for relatively little weight.

So what's the downside? Acceleration. If you wanted to accelerate quickly with the first engine, you only have to get the engine up to speed 10 times faster than the wheels are going... which probably is only a couple hundred rpm/sec.

With the second engine, it would be accelerating at 100times the wheel speed, which means perhaps thousands of rpm/second! This means it has to be light, and quick to spin up.

In any case, the summary is that engine power is all that really matters (from a purely academic perspective) since engine torque can be multiplied as needed.

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Old 05-05-2007, 02:24 PM   #117
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Nice write up there. You said what I said about gearing and torque, but with much better detail.

I think a lot of people downplay how important gearing and rpm limits can be to acceleration.



This is where I learned all I ever needed to learn about torque, gearing, horsepower, as it applies to acceleration.

I recommend reading this article

http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
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Old 05-05-2007, 06:10 PM   #118
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It's all about volumetric effeciency. I like to think of an engine as a lung. The more air/fuel mixture you can get in, and the more exhaust you can get out the better. Just factor in ignition to make the changeover as complete as possible. The more effecient the engine, the more power you are going to get for that particular displacement. You will never find a 100% effecient engine. You have friction loss to account for.
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Old 05-05-2007, 07:12 PM   #119
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Well I'm going to put my last 2 cents worth on this subject, 400+ HP, a good independant rear suspepension ( read the road test reports on the holden commodore VE with the same platform, they say it's awsome) a killer body style, with aftermarket parts both body and engine ( yes Virginia there is a santa clause who will produce a S/C for those who want one). I think GM knows what it will take to keep the customers coming in in droves to buy this car. They're in the business to make money. There are nearly 1000 Camaro clubs in the U.S. and I think GM knows the potential for this car. Remember if it wasn't for the 1 million hits the web sight got when it was first shown it probably would not have been made. Make it YOUR car with what ever engine comes with it. V-6 or LS something. It's what we want C A M A R O !
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Old 05-06-2007, 02:44 PM   #120
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When you chant the letters in that word...C A M A R O...it sounds better if there is an extra 'A' in the name. C A M A R A O. Try it! really!
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Old 05-06-2007, 03:06 PM   #121
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When you chant the letters in that word...C A M A R O...it sounds better if there is an extra 'A' in the name. C A M A R A O. Try it! really!
If you say so. LOL
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:29 PM   #122
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Who was that president that said,"A Camaro in every driveway"? Or something like that.
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:06 AM   #123
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well i am currently take the time to call every Chevy dealership in the state of WA and OH . so far i have started in WA since that is where i am right now. I received some good info from a sales manager that said he had been at a meeting recently and said the coupe is expected to be on the lots second quarter (aprox. April thru June), and the vert will be after that starting end June begin July. I also heard from another manager that they will start taking orders in November for the Spring. this same guy also told me that the plan is to have 80% V8's and 20% V6's. the V6 option will be the same 3.6L that is in the CTS and he said all V8's that roll out next year will be the LS2, but to expect the LS3 the next year. (sigh a whole year longer ) This guy also kept right on going and told me that GM just retrademarked the name Chevelle !! and he believes that the departing of the Monte that we just may hear rumors or see a new Chevelle . well pitch in what ya think cuz this is will be interesting!! Cheers!!
Regarding percentages, I SERIOUSLY think this guy got his info switched. GM will, IMO, build way more V6's than V8's....because they are easier to sell and more people will be able to afford them.
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So I guess there won't be an SS just yet. If this is true, then that kinda sucks. Hmm, where did all this talk of, "the LS2 is dead" come from anyway?
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The LS2 6.0L will be phased out and replaced with the LS3 6.2L. Now the LSA, that is a whole other ballgame !
3Whiterag is our GM Powertrain guy. The only issue...he says it's going out the door, but does not SPECIFY when. Scott Settlemire also stated the LS2 was reaching the end of it's days. I just don't know why they would put the LS2, an engine that hadn't been around all that long IMO, in the Camaro if GM continues to come out w/ more powerful and more fuel efficient engines. Scott also didn't say when the LS2 was headed out. Could it be possible? I guess so...the LS2 in the first year Camaro w/ the LS3 in the second year. BUT...

I see a hell of a lot of people being really pissed off at GM for doing that to them. Sure, they have a choice at waiting a year. But, wouldn't that be GM sealing it's own fate with the Camaro all over again?!?!?! I tell you all here and now...if GM puts the LS2 in the first year Camaro and the LS3 in the second year, I'm waiting. AND...I'm sure that a majority of the buying public will wait as well. I see a whole bunch of V6'ers being sold (this won't be affected by GM w/ the LS2 and LS3). But, no. This would hurt GM, decrease sales (unless they plan on waaaay more V6 sales than V8 sales).
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Old 06-28-2007, 02:46 AM   #124
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I think that would be kinda jacked up if the first model year of the 5th gen has an LS2 and then the next has the LS3.

I too would wait for the second year. I'm sure some out there wouldn't, but most performance minded individuals who have been keeping up on the all the information would probably wait too.
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Old 06-28-2007, 01:07 PM   #125
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Regarding percentages, I SERIOUSLY think this guy got his info switched. GM will, IMO, build way more V6's than V8's....because they are easier to sell and more people will be able to afford them.).
I think you are right on this, and just after I posted I was wondering if I may have heard him wrong (which is very possible due to poor cell phone coverage at the time).

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Scott also didn't say when the LS2 was headed out. Could it be possible? I guess so...the LS2 in the first year Camaro w/ the LS3 in the second year. I see a hell of a lot of people being really pissed off at GM for doing that to them. Sure, they have a choice at waiting a year. But, wouldn't that be GM sealing it's own fate with the Camaro all over again?!?!?! I tell you all here and now...if GM puts the LS2 in the first year Camaro and the LS3 in the second year, I'm waiting. AND...I'm sure that a majority of the buying public will wait as well. I see a whole bunch of V6'ers being sold (this won't be affected by GM w/ the LS2 and LS3). But, no. This would hurt GM, decrease sales (unless they plan on waaaay more V6 sales than V8 sales).
I completeley agree on this. It pisses me off like crazy we wait forever and then have to wait longer and it sucks!! 3Whiterag works for GM Powertrain, thats awsome!! My dad works for them as well at a transmission plant that I won't mention right now. I believe taht it should be the LS3 for the base V8 and supercharged for the SS or Z28 or whatever else. PLEASE GM GIVE US THE LS3!!!

Cheers!!
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