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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 10-20-2008, 09:35 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Where did you get your information?

Here's a very good article about cold air intake that also addresses the issue of ram-air.
http://www.camaro-untoldsecrets.com/...es/rpo_zl2.htm

Keep in mind that hood is 40 years old. I guess they didn't know ram air doesn't exist under ~230mph. Silly Mr. Shinoda

Also keep in mind the ram air turbulence is no longer an issue, and any gain in air pressure at the intake is good, blowers attest to that fact to an extreme. The engines are considerably smaller, but motorcycles are seeing very good gains from ram-air.

I should also mention, I never stated incredible gains from ram-air in an auto, if you'll re-read my posts you'll see I'm touting 'cold air' intake. But when you say ram air doesn't exist, well, it does but only at ~230, well it does, but it's somewhat insignificant for a car...That last part I'll come closer to agree with. I'm sure you'll also agree that most of us at some time or another have used 'tricks' to gain even insignificant horsepower...K&N maybe? Hotter plugs? You get the idea.
Looked it up in an aeronautical engineering textbook.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:42 AM   #52
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In this case, air density and air compression (pressure) are the same thing. And that's exactly what it is...Ram Air. Guess what a blower is...Yup, a mechanical Ram Air.
Uhhhh, no. Pressure and density are never the same thing.

d = PM/RT where d=density, P=pressure, M=mass, R=universal gas constant, and T=temp. The density can be changed by changing the temperature without changing the pressure at all. You can see (hopefully) from that equation that lowering the temperature will increase the density with no change in pressure.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:19 PM   #53
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Uhhhh, no. Pressure and density are never the same thing.

d = PM/RT where d=density, P=pressure, M=mass, R=universal gas constant, and T=temp. The density can be changed by changing the temperature without changing the pressure at all. You can see (hopefully) from that equation that lowering the temperature will increase the density with no change in pressure.
However, they are directly proportional, if one goes up so does the other.
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Old 10-20-2008, 12:30 PM   #54
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So that slot is non functional. Pity I was hoping GM would get away from some of those styling gimmicks.

They should have kept clean and functional. No silly do dads.
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Old 10-20-2008, 02:09 PM   #55
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Uhhhh, no. Pressure and density are never the same thing.

d = PM/RT where d=density, P=pressure, M=mass, R=universal gas constant, and T=temp. The density can be changed by changing the temperature without changing the pressure at all. You can see (hopefully) from that equation that lowering the temperature will increase the density with no change in pressure.
Excuse me, I should have said, "IN THIS CASE, air density and pressure are in direct correlation to each other, since air temperature variance is not a factor being that air density rises at a rate of .0017 PSI per 10 degree temperature change at 14 PSI.

So, anyways, whatcha think? Is ram-air via cold air scoop on a car hood possible?
Since you consider .0017 PSI to be significant enough to argue about, I take it your answer would be...yes?
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:05 PM   #56
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Excuse me, I should have said, "IN THIS CASE, air density and pressure are in direct correlation to each other, since air temperature variance is not a factor being that air density rises at a rate of .0017 PSI per 10 degree temperature change at 14 PSI.

So, anyways, whatcha think? Is ram-air via cold air scoop on a car hood possible?
Since you consider .0017 PSI to be significant enough to argue about, I take it your answer would be...yes?
You are still confusing pressure and density. Pressure is measured in PSI, density is not. Density is mass per unit volume. An increase of .0017psi is a pressure change, not a density change.
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Old 10-20-2008, 03:49 PM   #57
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You are still confusing pressure and density. Pressure is measured in PSI, density is not. Density is mass per unit volume. An increase of .0017psi is a pressure change, not a density change.
It's interesting how you choose to break down the discrepancies in my comments but ignore the question.

I also take it you're smart enough to know that air density can be weighed in PSI at a given temperature, pressure, and volume....Or would you rather use slugs and convert... I know what you're thinking, please don't do it...I'm really getting bored with this witty banter B.S. that only returns to one possible result, yes, you can have ram-air on a car...Even if it appears to be somewhat insignificant...At low speed.
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Old 10-20-2008, 04:51 PM   #58
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:37 PM   #59
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NERD ALERT!!!!
Bet you have a big pile of sticks-n-stones too don't-cha...Play nice or go home please.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:52 PM   #60
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Bet you have a big pile of sticks-n-stones too don't-cha...Play nice or go home please.
Who said I was talking to you? Not everything revolves around you, you know.

Also that was a test... if you are indeed a nerd, you would be proud of it and how smart you are, and would in turn, build credibility... by being offended and separating yourself from the nerds, only builds evidence that you aren't as smart, and shouldn't be listened to.

Bottom line: What matters here is density - not pressure... true the computers measure pressure and temperature... but only to find out what the density air the incoming airflow is. That way it can match a similar density of fuel... not a similar pressure of fuel, or a similar temperature of fuel...

Now stop trying to hijack this thread trying to prove how smart you are on a subject that doesn't matter. We aren't trying to figure out new designs of airflow sensors, we're trying to figure out how to make a functional mail slot (which I may just make into a vent instead of an intake - there's probably more function in that)
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:37 PM   #61
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All the techno-babble is relevent here. The question is about the design of a ram-air intake. Formulas and text from an aeronautical engineering textbook are useful, it saved me from digging out my 2nd year fluids book (I don't think I sold it. . . )

ps, asking amateurs to design a new sensor is a waste. The pros can do it so cheaply and effectively.
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Old 10-20-2008, 09:30 PM   #62
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All the techno-babble is relevent here. The question is about the design of a ram-air intake. Formulas and text from an aeronautical engineering textbook are useful, it saved me from digging out my 2nd year fluids book (I don't think I sold it. . . )

ps, asking amateurs to design a new sensor is a waste. The pros can do it so cheaply and effectively.
Arguing about pressure vs density isn't relevant... Digging up that book will prove far more valuable than listening to useless forum arguments... that's the last bit I've got to contribute to this thread... you guys argue amongst yourselves... I'll give you a topic... Rhode Island is neither a road, nor an Island
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:59 PM   #63
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whoa.... everyone settle down.



ram air is a misnomer.

while it does exist and can be applied to numerous setups, true ram air by means of forcing air into the intake on an automobile requires a high amount of speed to truly "force" the air into the intake.

what real gains that are seen with a ram air setup on a car is the fact that the intake tract is pretty much a straightline shot to the intake manifold, which results in less turbulence and less restriction.
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Old 02-06-2010, 01:05 AM   #64
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For exactly the reason I stated. A car cannot go fast enough to introduce any pressure differential just by moving through the air. Gas is considered incompressible when the speed is below .3 mach which is about 230 mph depending on altitude. In other words, unless you can go faster then that, ram air doesn't exist.
Dan,

Please let someone else drive your car on the interstate at ~70mph. Then, you roll down your window, open your mouth, and breathe. Try to tell me there's no such thing.

As far as I can tell, the idea would definitely work... the concept seems similar to the intakes I've seen on some Vettes (and on my streetbike). In another example, the factory-rated horsepower on my 2006 Yamaha R6 is 125hp without the ram air effect, but 131hp with. Doesn't look like much, I know, but its actually a 4.5% increase.

Any positive pressure will help the car make power (I can dig up my old MathCAD files and textbook examples from Aerothermodynamics, if I must). However, this rules out letting the mail slot supplement the factory air box. The pressurized air will go for the easiest route, whether that be into the intake or out the other side of the airbox. For the ram air to work, the airbox needs to be sealed.

Someone else mentioned the radiator heating up the air that would go over it. Although I'm sure the air may ever-so-slightly heat up, my intuition tells me the ram air effect would outweigh the slight loss from heating. Also keep in mind that the mail slot would pull in air MUCH cooler than underneath the hood.

If someone designed an intake that used the mail slot, assuming the slot size was adequate, it would most definitely add horsepower. The effects of cool air, positive pressure, and a straight-to-the-intake design would all culminate in power gains not seen by current stock or aftermarket intakes.
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Old 02-06-2010, 08:59 AM   #65
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Dan,

Please let someone else drive your car on the interstate at ~70mph. Then, you roll down your window, open your mouth, and breathe. Try to tell me there's no such thing.

As far as I can tell, the idea would definitely work... the concept seems similar to the intakes I've seen on some Vettes (and on my streetbike). In another example, the factory-rated horsepower on my 2006 Yamaha R6 is 125hp without the ram air effect, but 131hp with. Doesn't look like much, I know, but its actually a 4.5% increase.

Any positive pressure will help the car make power (I can dig up my old MathCAD files and textbook examples from Aerothermodynamics, if I must). However, this rules out letting the mail slot supplement the factory air box. The pressurized air will go for the easiest route, whether that be into the intake or out the other side of the airbox. For the ram air to work, the airbox needs to be sealed.

Someone else mentioned the radiator heating up the air that would go over it. Although I'm sure the air may ever-so-slightly heat up, my intuition tells me the ram air effect would outweigh the slight loss from heating. Also keep in mind that the mail slot would pull in air MUCH cooler than underneath the hood.

If someone designed an intake that used the mail slot, assuming the slot size was adequate, it would most definitely add horsepower. The effects of cool air, positive pressure, and a straight-to-the-intake design would all culminate in power gains not seen by current stock or aftermarket intakes.
Thanks for using the defibrilator on this thread and you still couldn't bring any life into it.
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Old 03-29-2011, 11:19 PM   #66
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Dan,

Please let someone else drive your car on the interstate at ~70mph. Then, you roll down your window, open your mouth, and breathe. Try to tell me there's no such thing.

As far as I can tell, the idea would definitely work... the concept seems similar to the intakes I've seen on some Vettes (and on my streetbike). In another example, the factory-rated horsepower on my 2006 Yamaha R6 is 125hp without the ram air effect, but 131hp with. Doesn't look like much, I know, but its actually a 4.5% increase.

Any positive pressure will help the car make power (I can dig up my old MathCAD files and textbook examples from Aerothermodynamics, if I must). However, this rules out letting the mail slot supplement the factory air box. The pressurized air will go for the easiest route, whether that be into the intake or out the other side of the airbox. For the ram air to work, the airbox needs to be sealed.

Someone else mentioned the radiator heating up the air that would go over it. Although I'm sure the air may ever-so-slightly heat up, my intuition tells me the ram air effect would outweigh the slight loss from heating. Also keep in mind that the mail slot would pull in air MUCH cooler than underneath the hood.

If someone designed an intake that used the mail slot, assuming the slot size was adequate, it would most definitely add horsepower. The effects of cool air, positive pressure, and a straight-to-the-intake design would all culminate in power gains not seen by current stock or aftermarket intakes.
Now that's a breath of fresh air.... pun intended!

It may not be true forced induction via ram air, but cool air and the little bit of force (or less resistance) has worked for me. I can feel it on the "seat of the pants" meter!


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