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Old 05-20-2010, 11:06 PM   #15
GearheadSS
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So basically, if GM uses this motor in the Z28, it's going to need an upgraded clutch? I wonder what else in the drivetrain will need to be strengthened.
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Old 05-20-2010, 11:28 PM   #16
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Don't know you Robin but after watching that video if I was going to marry a dood it would be you LOL! In the 10.98 video I hear your tires SCREAMING for mercy!
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Old 05-21-2010, 06:50 AM   #17
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So basically, if GM uses this motor in the Z28, it's going to need an upgraded clutch? I wonder what else in the drivetrain will need to be strengthened.
We never had a clutch behind our LSA. My opinion is if you perform any mods on the LS3 are going to push that stock clutch over the limit. I don't see them using that clutch, but who knows.

The CTS-V as well as the ZR1 both have dual disc clutches. So yes GM has upgraded clutches in those cars.

The CTS-V clutch is not an option in my opinion. It is heavy and appears to be a dual mass type of clutch. Very smooth but heavy. Also it doesn't fit into the current Tremec 6060 bellhousing.

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Old 05-21-2010, 07:29 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence View Post
We never had a clutch behind our LSA. My opinion is if you perform any mods on the LS3 are going to push that stock clutch over the limit. I don't see them using that clutch, but who knows.

The CTS-V as well as the ZR1 both have dual disc clutches. So yes GM has upgraded clutches in those cars.

The CTS-V clutch is not an option in my opinion. It is heavy and appears to be a dual mass type of clutch. Very smooth but heavy. Also it doesn't fit into the current Tremec 6060 bellhousing.

Robin

Robin, I thought the CTS-V DOES use a TR 6060 for thier manual option?
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Old 05-21-2010, 08:14 AM   #19
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Old 05-21-2010, 08:46 AM   #20
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Robin, I thought the CTS-V DOES use a TR 6060 for thier manual option?
It uses a different TR6060 that handles more power. I'm sure it's the bellhousing that's different, exterior-wise (among who knows what), that is among the differences between the SS 6060 and the CTS's. SS has the M10. I don't really see a difference in these images; I think they're probably the same GM does say CTS-V's MG9 uses a different bellhousing that adds stiffness, so maybe that's the greatest extent, with regard to this particular topic.

"2010 Tremec TR6060 (MM6/MZ6/MH3/MG9/M10) car transmission
2010 Model Year Summary
Tremec TR6060 six-speed manual car transmission

New Features and Benefits for 2010 model year
• Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
• Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth (CTSv in 2009)
• Improved transmission pump pick-up
• Implementation into the V-8 Camaro

Second gear synchronizers using carbon material
The change to carbon material on the second gear synchronizer will improve the durability of the synchronizer. Carbon also protects the synchronizer during WOT shifts with the wheels spinning. The shift feel improvements made in 2008 are refined further with the implementation of the carbon material.

Second gear synchronizer design with advanced and asymmetric teeth
Implementing advanced and asymmetric teeth on the second gear aynchronizer system improves the shiftability of the transmission during cold temperatures. This is accomplished by the advanced and asymmetric teeth contacting the second gear dog ring in less distance and with increase stopping power. The shift feel is significantly improved in cold weather. This design also improves the warm shifting comfort.

Improved transmission pump pick-up
As the performance vehicles improve in handling and on-track performance, an improvement to the transmission pump fluid pick up was needed to maintain an acceptable fluid temperature during limit handling and on-track events. In order to enhance operation, an 'S' tube design was introduced into some TR6060 applications for 2010 model year. The features of the 'S' tube are twofold. First, the tube is lengthened to put the pick-up point further rearward in the fluid sump. Second, the tube has an 'S' shape to put the pick up location in the middle of the sump as compared to the current design which is offset to the left slightly. With the introduction of the 'S' tube, fluid temps are reduced by 5 degrees Celsius.

Implementation into the V-8 Camaro
The TR6060 is mated to the LS3 engine in the 2010 Camaro. The TR6060 used in the Camaro will use the M10 gear set. A transmission pump will be standard. The TR6060 used in the Camaro is very similar to the TR6060 used in the 2009 CTSv.


Low maintenance
The TR6060 6-speed uses Texaco ATF Type III 1863 fluid and is certified "fill-for-life," requiring no fluid changes. The clutch is activated hydraulically, which automatically compensates for clutch disc wear, eliminating manual adjustments (except for the ZR1 which uses a traditional clutch). The Tremec TR6060 six-speed has evolved from a design that aimed to require virtually no maintenance in all but the most severe conditions.

Overview
Both the standard Corvette and the high-performance Z06 use the TR6060 designated as MM6, which is validated to 500 lb-ft of torque, while the TR6060 with the Z51 option features higher ratios and is designated as MZ6. It is validated to 430 lb-ft of torque. The ultra high performance ZR1 uses the TR6060 designated as the MH3, which is validated to 650 lb-ft of torque. The CTSv uses the MG9 version of the TR6060 validated to 560 lb-ft of torque. The Camaro uses the M10 gear set validated to 430 lb-ft of torque.
Design features include a combination of double-cone and triple-cone synchronizers on all gears. Synchronizers act like clutches to speed up or slow down a gear that is being shifted to. Double-cone synchronizers have two friction surfaces to effect this gear acceleration, and triple-cone synchronizers have three friction surfaces. The greater the friction surface, the easier the transmission is to shift. In addition, double-cone and triple-cone synchronizers are smaller in diameter than a single-cone synchronizer with the same friction area allowing the transmission to remain more compact. Bearings in place of bushings lower the friction of the shift rail movements for the TR6060, making the shifter feel naturally lighter and more direct.

Refinements common to the design of all six-speed Tremec TR6060 transmissions include needle bearings on all forward gearsets and 5th and 6th gear synchronizers located on a countershaft. The countershaft location of the 5th and 6th gear synchronizers allow those gears to be selected without affecting the 1st through 4th gearsets, contributing to ease of shifting.
The sixth-generation Corvette with the Z51 option uses the MZ6 version of the six-speed, with ratios developed for the M12 which was used in the Cadillac CTS-V. These ratios are higher in first, second, and third gears than the MM6, as well as a lower-ratio fifth gear to increase top speed for the Z51 option.

When the high-performance Z06 version of the Corvette was introduced for 2006, a stronger single-piece countershaft replaced the previous two-piece countershaft for the MM6. The output shaft was enlarged to a 30-spline unit, which is more durable than the 27-spline unit used in previous applications. Also in 2006 the 6L80 six-speed automatic transmission was introduced, and the bolt pattern for the rear of the case extension of the manual transmission was changed to match the same bolt pattern as the automatic.
In 2009 model year, two new applications of the TR6060 were introduced. First, the Corvette ZR1 using the MH3 gear set. This gear set is the closest ratio gear set available in the TR6060. This gear set has been developed for maximizing on-track performance. Other than gear ratio changes, the only other refinements made in the TR6060 to handle the 638 lb-ft of engine torque were material changes in some shafts and gear pairs. The other 2009 model year introduction was the CTSv. The gear set chosen for this application was the MG9 which is similar to the MZ6 set used in the Z51 Corvette. However, in order to handle the 550 lb-ft of engine torque, the gears were redesigned. A trans pump is standard on the CTSv. The front bell was also incorporated into the front adaptor it improve powertrain bending. Both the ZR1 and CTSv use a twin plate clutch to handle the increased engine torque.

Originally, the Tremec T56 evolved as a higher-torque capacity, six-speed version of the proven M49 five-speed manual transmission, and was introduced in the 1993 Chevrolet Camaro and Pontiac Firebird. It was also added to the 1997 fifth-generation Corvette. For the 2008 model year, it has evolved into the TR6060.

Further applications included high-performance models, such as in mid-2004 the Cadillac CTS-V, which used the LS6 engine mated to the M12 higher-ratio version of the transmission, as well as variants that were used in the Pontiac GTO and Chevrolet SSR models.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by G8GT4now View Post
Are you using the stock LSA heat exchanger?
OK a ltitle update. The LSA and the ECU uses 2 intake air temp sensors as well as 3 maps sensors. OK 2 of the map sensors are 1 bar and 1 is sued for baro. The third is a 3 bar on the top of the intake.

The E38 in the camaro is configured for 1 map and 1 IAT. So I have changed the tables for the map and am now using the 3 bar tuning tables. One IAT is in the MAF like most cars but thsy have another in the intake top after the supercharger.

I had to build a jumper harness to connect the GM IAT sensor to the MAF harness on the Camaro. Well once I did that I started to monitor the Intake Air Temps. I was suprised at how high they were and really would not drop after cruising for several miles.

After using my infared temp gun I found that the Setrad heat exchanger wasn't as warm as the connectors for the intercooler. They connectors were the same as the manifold and the readings on the computer.

After some investigation which included removing the intercooler hoses and flowing water from my garden hose I determined that the heat exhanger had been air locked. I could feel the pump running but nothing was coolng down!

I was able to get the air out of the intercooler and now it seems to be flowing very well. The temps are now at predictable levels and it will drop 3 degrees after some WOT runs. Now I know why the car became a dog after driving it a bit.

A tank would have prevented this from happening but we didn't have the time to fab one up. Oh well. I want to say now the car runs very hard even in 90 degree temps.

No more heat soak.

Robin
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Last edited by Robin Lawrence; 05-24-2010 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence View Post
OK a ltitle update. The LSA and the ECU uses 2 intake air temp sensors as well as 3 maps sensors. OK 2 of the map sensors are 1 bar and 1 is sued for baro. The third is a 3 bar on the top of the intake.

The E38 in the camaro is configured for 1 map and 1 IAT. So I have changed the tables for the map and am now using the 3 bar tuning tables. One IAT is in the MAF like most cars but thsy have another in the intake top after the supercharger.

I had to build a jumper harness to connect the GM IAT sensor to the MAF harness on the Camaro. Well once I did that I started to monitor the Intake Air Temps. I was suprised at how high they were and really would not drop after cruising for several miles.

After using my infared temp gun I found that the Setrad heat exchanger wasn't as warm as the connectors for the intercooler. They connectors were the same as the manifold and the readings on the computer.

After some investigation which included removing the intercooler hoses and flowing water from my garden hose I determined that the heat exhanger had been air locked. I could feel the pump running but nothing was coolng down!

I was able to get the air out of the intercooler and now it seems to be flowing very well. The temps are now at predictable levels and it will drop 3 degrees after some WOT runs. Now I know why the car became a dog after driving it a bit.

A tank would have prevented this from happening but we didn't have the time to fab one up. Oh well. I want to say now the car runs very hard even in 90 degree temps.

No more heat soak.

Roin
When does the car start to go back to stock?
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence View Post
OK a ltitle update. The LSA and the ECU uses 2 intake air temp sensors as well as 3 maps sensors. OK 2 of the map sensors are 1 bar and 1 is sued for baro. The third is a 3 bar on the top of the intake. Ha, ha. You go after that rogue MAP sensor...

The E38 in the camaro is configured for 1 map and 1 IAT. So I have changed the tables for the map and am now using the 3 bar tuning tables. One IAT is in the MAF like most cars but thsy have another in the intake top after the supercharger.

I had to build a jumper harness to connect the GM IAT sensor to the MAF harness on the Camaro. Well once I did that I started to monitor the Intake Air Temps. I was suprised at how high they were and really would not drop after cruising for several miles.

After using my infared temp gun I found that the Setrad heat exchanger wasn't as warm as the connectors for the intercooler. They connectors were the same as the manifold and the readings on the computer.

After some investigation which included removing the intercooler hoses and flowing water from my garden hose I determined that the heat exhanger had been air locked. I could feel the pump running but nothing was coolng down!

I was able to get the air out of the intercooler and now it seems to be flowing very well. The temps are now at predictable levels and it will drop 3 degrees after some WOT runs. Now I know why the car became a dog after driving it a bit.

A tank would have prevented this from happening but we didn't have the time to fab one up. Oh well. I want to say now the car runs very hard even in 90 degree temps.

No more heat soak.

Roin
Thanks for the info. Sounds like you are making the system better and better. Hope all of this great innovation finds its way onto future vehicles...
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:36 PM   #24
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When does the car start to go back to stock?
LOL, well...........hehe I am trying to sell some parts that I won't be needing. Because I have a 7 second Nova I don't need another toy. Every time that drive the car I tell myself that I MUST keep the car. Running 10's is cool but you can only do that once or twice before the track guys get mad

My current idea is to re install the 6060 Transmission and the Lingenfleter GT11 camshaft. I need to quiet the car down and make it docile so I would also install some high flow cats from Kooks. If all that works I would then install the 3.70 rear carrier unit and drive the car.

I want to get a custom AC pressure line fabbed so I can re install the AC compressor.

I talked to Andy at ADM about some parts. He brought up their CTS-V brake install and that sounds cool.

So many options, so little $$$$$ LOL

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Old 05-24-2010, 02:41 PM   #25
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Thanks for the info. Sounds like you are making the system better and better. Hope all of this great innovation finds its way onto future vehicles...
Well I think that since they can start with a special harness and ecu they will have things sorted out. What I cool is that you can install the 3 bar map and re cal the IAT on any turbocharged or supercharged LS3. There are a lot of tables or modifiers that will make the aftermarket power adders act more like OEM.

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Old 05-24-2010, 02:46 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence View Post
LOL, well...........hehe I am trying to sell some parts that I won't be needing. Because I have a 7 second Nova I don't need another toy. Every time that drive the car I tell myself that I MUST keep the car. Running 10's is cool but you can only do that once or twice before the track guys get mad

My current idea is to re install the 6060 Transmission and the Lingenfleter GT11 camshaft. I need to quiet the car down and make it docile so I would also install some high flow cats from Kooks. If all that works I would then install the 3.70 rear carrier unit and drive the car.

I want to get a custom AC pressure line fabbed so I can re install the AC compressor.

I talked to Andy at ADM about some parts. He brought up their CTS-V brake install and that sounds cool.

So many options, so little $$$$$ LOL

Robin
So... you're NOT getting rid of the car?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin Lawrence View Post
Well I think that since they can start with a special harness and ecu they will have things sorted out. What I cool is that you can install the 3 bar map and re cal the IAT on any turbocharged or supercharged LS3. There are a lot of tables or modifiers that will make the aftermarket power adders act more like OEM.

Robin
Not that I know you, but I had no idea you were that versed in ECUs. Maybe you should tune cars for a living

j/k
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:55 PM   #27
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So... you're NOT getting rid of the car?...



Not that I know you, but I had no idea you were that versed in ECUs. Maybe you should tune cars for a living

j/k
LOL, well I have been tuning EFI systems for over 20 years. At one time I tuned for others but I don't do that very often. I am SCT dealer and have both EFI Live and HP Tuners. I have tuned a ton of stand alone race type systems. I do a lot of work on the engine dyno also.
I am working with Holley on their new Dominator EFI System. Soon to be installed on my LSX Nova.

I have learned a ton about the GM ECU's in the past several years. Still a lot to learn.
One of my goals while working with GMPP was to share what I am able to learn on these projects. Hopefully to make it easier for others to enjoy thier performance upgrades.

I am not in business so I am not trying to sell parts or services. I do have favorites though

Robin
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Old 05-24-2010, 02:56 PM   #28
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damn that car takes off, SWEET!
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