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Old 10-20-2008, 05:27 PM   #1
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How many people will E-85 their new camaro?

Just wondering how many people will convert their new camaro to accept E-85? I am planning on doing an E-85 and premium map but will have to change injectors etc. How will this work with warranty also - good or not?
Opinions welcome.....
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:28 PM   #2
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Ok for those of us who dont know what E-85ing your car is, IE: (me) im guessing it has to do with ethenol? Could you explain?
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:29 PM   #3
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If a reliable E85 kit comes out, I will seriously consider it. A Camaro with E85 would be great for fuel expenses since E85 is so much cheaper. I'll want to see a dyno for this kit before I buy it.
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:31 PM   #4
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E-85 --> 85% Ethanole, 15% Gasoline (supposidly better for the environment)

Current Gasoline --> (up to) 10% Ethanol, (minimum) 90% Gasoline
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:33 PM   #5
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God no! Avgas maybe......
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:36 PM   #6
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Basically with E-85 fuel it is at 105 Octane which I would think would be nice for performance. We have a tuner shop up he road here that has done it for my friends STI and another friends S/C mustang. I plan on doing this pretty soon after I get my car. As soon as the tuner becomes available and they can get things figured out I will be able to give dyno numbers on E-85 & Premium fuel.
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
Just wondering how many people will convert their new camaro to accept E-85? I am planning on doing an E-85 and premium map but will have to change injectors etc. How will this work with warranty also - good or not?
Opinions welcome.....
if you change the injectors i would say you could forget the warranty
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Old 10-20-2008, 05:56 PM   #8
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That's what I figured about the warranty - that will be the only thing holding me back. I don't plan on getting too crazy with mods and such. Probably just cat back, shorties and cold air from dealer. It would be nice if we could do the E-85 through GM and the dealers though.
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:03 PM   #9
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I would consider it. A few gas stations around offer it, and I can't argue with that octane either.
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:39 PM   #10
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I think if we had more E85 pumps around I may change all my vehicles that way but the vettes, But the closes one THat I know of is Far lacey/Olympia area.
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Old 10-20-2008, 06:46 PM   #11
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I'll stick with 91. With E85 your performance will go down and you will be using more fuel.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:26 PM   #12
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oh no.. the e85 debate...

Long story short.. until gas is more than 40% the cost of E85 you will not save any money and the performance gain will be so slight that you will not notice unless your on a dyno.

In my case personally id never do it becuase there are zero, count them, ZERO e85 stations in the state of arizona.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:30 PM   #13
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I guess besides the injectors that need to be changed, what else has to be changed(besdies the computer tuning)? I thought it will eat up the inside of your gas tank, fuel lines and fuel line gaskets if you are not properly equipped. This what I've heard.

I wouldn't do it anyway because the only E85 stations within 100 miles are all private use lol.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I think if we had more E85 pumps around I may change all my vehicles that way but the vettes, But the closes one THat I know of is Far lacey/Olympia area.
we have a e85 station by the walmart in chehalis....=P
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:40 PM   #15
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I believe it would be the water pump from what I found out today. I don't know a lot about it and only started researching it today. It is not a big change but I think the Octane change will help alot with performance. Its almost like running race fuel with a tune. If I can get a map for both and switch between E-85 and 91-93 premium, it should be cool. I also live in the midwest and there is an E-85 pump at almost every station.
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Old 10-20-2008, 07:51 PM   #16
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Quote:
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we have a e85 station by the walmart in chehalis....=P
lol thats alittle to far for me to gas up then drive home lol.
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
I believe it would be the water pump from what I found out today. I don't know a lot about it and only started researching it today. It is not a big change but I think the Octane change will help alot with performance. Its almost like running race fuel with a tune. If I can get a map for both and switch between E-85 and 91-93 premium, it should be cool. I also live in the midwest and there is an E-85 pump at almost every station.
Uhh its alot more than just the injectors, Seriously do some major research for this...

short list of items that will need to be replaced/changed..
fuel filter
injectors
fuel lines
fuel pump
added filtration (e85 actually sweats water, the main reason for fuel system changes)
tuning..

You need more fuel for the correct burn, so your burning more fuel for less energy. even though the octane is high and you will get more hp out of it, your burning more fuel to do so.

ALSO if you tune specifically for E85 you won't be able to run normal gasoline (injectors and rate will make it EXTREMLY rich and cuase spark blowout). So you limit yourself to ONLY e85. To run a system that can run both you will lose soo much in MPG from the e85 due to the tune not being specific for it that you will lose more money that you will save. You will have to tune for a "middle of the road" slightly rich for gasoline, and slightly lean for e85 becuase the sensors that detect octane (the o2 sensors) are not hooked into the ECM the correct way.

E85 conversions arn't worth it. If you want e85 get it from the factory, and if its not available.. your going to spend thousands for a substandard system.
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Old 10-20-2008, 08:37 PM   #18
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I know there are a lot of things that go into it but you don't have to settle for a middle of the road map. The access ports allow for many different maps that you can change easily. My friend with the STI can run race gas, premium and runs a water/meth system so he has about 4 maps for his car in his Cobb port. My friend with the S/C 2005 GT Mustang has 2 maps - 1 for E-85 and 1 for premium fuel. His works great and performance is different for each map. Cost for him was under 1k for everything.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diarmadhi View Post
Uhh its alot more than just the injectors, Seriously do some major research for this...

short list of items that will need to be replaced/changed..
fuel filter
injectors
fuel lines
fuel pump
added filtration (e85 actually sweats water, the main reason for fuel system changes)
tuning..

You need more fuel for the correct burn, so your burning more fuel for less energy. even though the octane is high and you will get more hp out of it, your burning more fuel to do so.

ALSO if you tune specifically for E85 you won't be able to run normal gasoline (injectors and rate will make it EXTREMLY rich and cuase spark blowout). So you limit yourself to ONLY e85. To run a system that can run both you will lose soo much in MPG from the e85 due to the tune not being specific for it that you will lose more money that you will save. You will have to tune for a "middle of the road" slightly rich for gasoline, and slightly lean for e85 becuase the sensors that detect octane (the o2 sensors) are not hooked into the ECM the correct way.

E85 conversions arn't worth it. If you want e85 get it from the factory, and if its not available.. your going to spend thousands for a substandard system.

im running my 2005 equinox on e85 and it is not a flex fuel vehicle and i didnt do any of the things you said,, man i must have done it wrong,,lol

lots of internet myths,,
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:34 PM   #20
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im running my 2005 equinox on e85 and it is not a flex fuel vehicle and i didnt do any of the things you said,, man i must have done it wrong,,lol

lots of internet myths,,
Internet myth huh?

Hmm... WELL when you take a look at this document... which is what GM submitted to the EPA.. you know.. the GOVERNMENT.. that details the changes needed to be made to enable them to safely and conform to GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS so that they could produce a vehicle to run on ethanol (e85)


Link to PDF

Here is the text from that doc...

Vehicle System Changes for E85/Flexfuel
• Fuel storage and handling
– Filler neck
– Tank and associated parts
– Fuel lines
• Engine hardware
• Engine control system
– Engine controller
– Control software
– Control calibrations

Fuel Storage and Handling

• Filler neck may need changing
– Material may not be compatible with ethanol
– Leaks could result due to shrinkage or swelling
– Leak will cause OBD system to set codes (check engine light)
– Leak will cause vehicle to fail evaporative emissions
requirements
• Flame arrester is generally added to filler neck
– E85 typically has lower vapor pressure than gasoline
• Metal fuel tanks would have to be examined for E85
tolerance
– Terne metal material (typical metal tank) is not compatible with
ethanol without special coatings
– Corrosion and leaks can result
– Leaks will cause OBD system to set codes
– Leaks will cause vehicle to fail evaporative emissions
requirements

Fuel Storage and Handling
• Seals and grommets need to be evaluated for compatibility
– Shrinkage, swell, or mechanical failure can lead to leaks, codes and
evaporative emissions
• Fuel pump must be changed
– Material changes, higher flow rate
– Pump failures will lead to walk-homes
– Inadequate pump flow, whether a result of not upgrading pump or
pump deterioration, will lead to diagnostic codes
– Inadequate pump flow will lead to ineffective catalyst protection
routines, catalyst damage and emissions failures
• Fuel sender is typically changed
– Corrosion resistance and mode of operation
– Fuel sender failure leads to fuel gauge loss and, possibly, loss of
ethanol estimate and control diagnostic codes.
• Vapor pressure sensor is typically changed
– Materials compatibility
– Device required for evaporative emissions compliance

Fuel Storage and Handling
• Fuel lines are often changed
– Polymer lines
• Polymer can be extracted into ethanol and precipitate at
injector
• Fouled injectors lead to codes, uneven cylinder operation
and emissions, loss of power…
– Metal lines can corrode
• Leakage will cause evaporative emissions
• Corrosion products can degrade and plug injectors
• Degraded injectors lead to codes, uneven cylinder operation
and emissions, loss of power…

Engine Hardware
• Fuel rails should be stainless steel
– Other materials lead to the same problems as fuel
lines
• Fuel injectors are changed
– Materials compatibility
• Winding insulation must be ethanol compatible to prevent
shorts
• Corrosion resistance is very important to correct operation
– Flow must be adequate
• Allows commanded flow
• Enables rated power
• Enables catalyst protection mode and thus required catalyst
life

Engine Hardware
• Valves and valve seats are usually changed
– Wear of these components leads to valve seat
recession,
– Valve seat recession, once valve lash is exhausted
will produce valve leaks, misfire, codes, emissions,
valve burning, head replacement
• Piston rings are often changed
– Ring wear lead to blow-by, loss of power codes,
emissions

Engine Control System
• Engine controller
– Controller may need to be changed to have enough capacity to
accept required software
– Controller may have to be changed to be compatible with fuel
sender
• Fuel composition sensor may need to be added
– This provides the ethanol composition to the controller so that
the correct calibrations can be used
• If there is no fuel composition sensor control software to
determine ethanol concentration is needed.
– The software must be able to distinguish between fuel and
hardware induced changes in air-fuel ratios to ensure diagnostic
(OBD) compliance

Engine Control System
• Control calibrations
– New calibrations are required to adjust fuel, spark, EGR, etc. for
the ethanol content
– Variables are non-linear between E0 and E85
– Special calibration revisions are required for cold and hot start
– Depending on software architecture, special calibrations are
required for catalyst protection routines
– Inadequate calibrations can lead to poor running, elevated
emissions, and vehicle and emissions systems durability issues.

Conclusion
• Developing a flexfuel or even a dedicated E85 vehicle is
a major undertaking
– Conversion to an existing flexfuel design requires extensive
swapping of parts often deep inside the vehicle
– Conversion of a vehicle that has never been flexfuel requires
extensive engineering of new parts, finding suppliers, and
validating the resulting hardware
• Software and calibration development will be a major
undertaking requiring specialists to execute
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:42 PM   #21
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Oh and by the way here is the website that governs aftermarket alternative fuel conversions...

The kit itself MUST be certified by the EPA or it is not legal.

Link

Let me know if you need more resources because I HAVE done extensive research on this subject and can provide them for you.
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Old 10-20-2008, 10:51 PM   #22
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you actually need a rebuild of the engine since the seals such as headgaskets need to be e85 compatible aswell
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:04 AM   #23
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you actually need a rebuild of the engine since the seals such as headgaskets need to be e85 compatible aswell
In the Evo world they just add bigger injectors (maybe a bigger fuel pump if high HP) and a retune .
They are "allmost" getting C16 results E85 gas .
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Old 10-21-2008, 08:49 AM   #24
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Thats more along the lines I was thinking but maybe I'll wait until warranty is gone - not sure now. Here is a site I was looking at last night that showed some E-85 myths. www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths
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Old 10-21-2008, 09:27 AM   #25
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That is not true about zero e85 stations in Arizona. Google Western States Petroleum, they sell both B99 (biodiesel 99%) and E85.

I ran a tank of E85 in my 2003 Flex Fuel Suburban. My MPG dropped by 4, and performanced suffered. To me it was not worth the savings. Plus all of us subsidize the Ethanol market via the feds and our tax dollars.

Now on the other hand the B99 biodiesel runs great in my cummins turbo diesel.

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