Independent Rear Suspension a Problem?

[Warghost]

Hey everyone. Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to say I love the new Camaro and hope it's everything it can be. I am here almost every day, looking for snippets of info to hold me over till 2009.

Anyway, the other day it was posted here that the new Camaro would feature independent suspension and it made me remember a lot of issues that some friends of mine who own Cobras have....wheel hop. Granted, these guys are running some serious horsepower, but the Camaro will have 450HP and 600+HP. Won't the wheel hop be a major problem? Wouldn't it be wiser to stick with a solid rear axle design?

Discuss!

[Casull]

Originally Posted by Warghost

Hey everyone. Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to say I love the new Camaro and hope it's everything it can be. I am here almost every day, looking for snippets of info to hold me over till 2009.

Anyway, the other day it was posted here that the new Camaro would feature independent suspension and it made me remember a lot of issues that some friends of mine who own Cobras have....wheel hop. Granted, these guys are running some serious horsepower, but the Camaro will have 450HP and 600+HP. Won't the wheel hop be a major problem? Wouldn't it be wiser to stick with a solid rear axle design?

Discuss!

Welcome to the site!

I think it could go one of two ways: Think the GTO and Corvette. Tje GTOs IRS was not very refined and is notorious for wheel hop as well. However, the Corvette's IRS is much more refined and has worked well for years. I believe with the Zeta architecture being GMs backbone for the next few years that they will put a great deal of time into the IRS and deliver a quality product.

[TAG UR IT]

Welcome to the site as well.

Casull makes an excellent point. I don't know recall who it was here, but they had asked what was the first major thing owners did with GTO's...it was to buy and install stronger components for the IRS to minimize the wheelhop. In other words, there are parts out there that can be used to solve the problem. Like Casull said...look at the Vette. GM has the ability to install a strong enough IRS that can handle the power and minimize the wheelhop. The main question, is will they have enough "beans" to do it in the Camaro. If not, I'll have to go back and change my "what will be your first mod" post...

[MattD]

I'm with TAG UR IT on this one. It seems like our beloved Camaros have been plagued by a weak rear end since the early 80's. I really don't see this one being any different, especially since it's gonna be IRS.

[Mr. Wyndham]

I have a lot of faith in ZETA. If you want a real-life answer, go and research the Holden Commodore: it rides on almost the exact chassis the Camaro will have...

[Warghost]

Thanks for the welcomes and info.

I should probably have more faith in the IRS of this vehicle, since the Zeta platform will be so widely used. I'm sure they put a lot of thought into the engineering of the design, so there probably is nothing to worry about.

But, as it was also mentioned, it's good to know that there are some aftermarket products available to correct any issues that arise.

Thanks again!

[TAG UR IT]

If wheelhop is bad, which I don't think it will be, aftermarket companies will rush to get parts out the door to correct the problem. I'm sure GM won't let this be a problem.

[Craig]

The 99-04 Cobra IRS was back-engineered to fit the existing mounting points of a decades-old chassis that was designed without the first thought of an independent rear suspension in mind. You will not find a worse example of how an IRS behaves under high-power conditions.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Craig

The 99-04 Cobra IRS was back-engineered to fit the existing mounting points of a decades-old chassis that was designed without the first thought of an independent rear suspension in mind. You will not find a worse example of how an IRS behaves under high-power conditions.

you've got to be kidding......hey it's Ford, what can you expect?just kidding, I love all of the Big three, I just love the General the most...

[Moose]

Welcome Warghost

My thoughts concerning an IRS in the 5th Gen. are this.

The majority will most likely spend most of their time driving their Camaro under "normal" conditions. For those who do take it to the track, I'm certain there will be aftermarket company offerings for those serious about racing their cars.

Also, with all the time and money invested by GM in the development of the new Camaro, as well as how important this car will be to GM and it's well being, I'm confident the IRS in the new Camaro will fulfill our needs just fine.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Right, there's just too much riding on the Zeta Chassis...
(yeah, stupid pun indended)

[Mr. Wyndham]

Lately I've been hearing a lot about the Camaro's IRS, or Independent Rear Suspention. Mostly it's been a negative vibe that's being given off. Now I know that it's kind of an unprecedented thing, and I'm no engineer, but what's the big deal? Why are so many people reacting badly to this aspect of the car.
I see Corvette - which pulls IRS off beautifully, and I look forward to an IRS Camaro...so what gives?

[gurulu68]

has anybody drag raced a late modle corvette at a quarter mile track lately? Has anyone spoken to those owners and asked them how they handle? I'm curious, I haven't raced anyone in a long time. I don't want to reck my car.

[MerF]

You know, I almost made this thread, but I felt too noobish already with my thread-whoring so I held back. I'm glad you did for me.

Anyway, I find it a bit silly personally. If you wiegh the benefits of solid-axle with IRS, one will be clearly superior, and it won't be the axle. In ONE aspect of things, the axle will be EASIER to make better, and that's only hooking off the line. In all other aspects (weight, ride, handling, etc) the IRS is far superior. An IRS can be made to hook just fine. It won't lift the nose off the ground more than a couple times (or once for that matter) before CV joints start to break, but if you're building a purely track car that is even putting that much to the ground, then you're going to probably put an aftermarket axle in anyway.

I really like the idea that it will have IRS...if only they would go with a transaxle set-up (C5/C6 transmissions on the rear axle vice the flywheel) then this car would be able to handle like a monster....then again, this isn't the legacy of the Camaro, per se.

Just my humble opinion.

[TAG UR IT]

They are all upset because they are worried about wheel hop. Build it right, and there won't be any. Everyone is getting worked up over nothing, IMO. Oh, and they think since it's IRS, it won't be able to handle the gobs of power they want to put through it. ... uh ... weren't we just mentioning the Corvette??? and the gobs of power that get pushed through it's driveline??? DOH!!!

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by MerF

An IRS can be made to hook just fine. It won't lift the nose off the ground more than a couple times (or once for that matter) before CV joints start to break...

I really like the idea that it will have IRS...if only they would go with a transaxle set-up (C5/C6 transmissions on the rear axle vice the flywheel) then this car would be able to handle like a monster....then again, this isn't the legacy of the Camaro, per se.

Care to elaborate on those two points...I don't quite follow.

And TAG, exactly what I thought...I don't get what their problems are...I mean people actually curse the IRS as blasphemy, I've actually read that stuff - Enthusiasts, psh........oh.:eek:>:o>

[MerF]

The IRS will likely use CV joints (at least as far as I know in most applications today). CV joints are weaker by nature than Universals, not to mention the axles themselves will be slightly skinnier than solid axles. They can't take the abuse of heavyduty launches at a dragstrip repeatedly.

But they can hold up just fine for street use, even harder driving on the street will be fine if they are built right (read: Vette-quality). My only experience with IRS personally was my MKIV Supra, and I had ~500 rwhp and only had trouble with hop when I launched poorly on street radials. But there are plenty of 1000+ rwhp Supras out there that run IRS just fine. But Supras aren't exactly 60' kings....they don't even start moving till 80-100 feet from the line.

The Corvette's transaxle set-up uses a connection (I can only remember it as being called the "torque-tube", but I'm sure that's not it's name) that is basically a drive-shaft between the flywheel (engine) and the transmission. So the transmission is actually connected to the rear end of the car instead of the motor. This makes the Vette a beautifully balanced car.

Here's a picture to sorta give you a clue what I mean:

The round part to the left is the actual "pumpkin", you can see where the axles will go into that go outwards to the wheels. As you can see, the transmission is actually integrated as part of the rear-end.

That's how the handle like they do. 49/51 weight distribution. Hope that cleared it up a bit.

Another image, if you can deipher what you're seeing, it's basically the schematic version of the image above:

[Mr. Wyndham]

I gotcha, yeah I knew that - it's nothing special, just a transmission at the back of the car, in fact - i think my 79 is set up that way...I haven't looked under it in a while, it may have changed...........


But I thought that "transaxle"was a term reserved for frontwheel drive cars. Meaning basically that the Transmission mounts sideways along the front axle. I thought I read that somewhere...

[Rock36]

This is just a gut reaction, but the more we talk about vette quality IRS, or vette quality this and that in the camaro, you start envisioning a more expensive camaro overall. There is a reason the vette costs as much as it does.

Everyone wants the Camaro to compete with the cost of a Mustang, but if we keep expecting on all this heavy duty stuff and that gets more and more difficult. I'm not sure we can have our cake and eat it too.

The Supra also had a great IRS, but Supras were also expensive. They were around $40K cars, and that was about 10 years ago.


As for IRS or a solid axle. I really don't care. In my limited experience, the only time an IRS setup really starts to shine is when you are pushing the limits of your car i.e. on an autocross track.

The average driver can't or won't push the car hard enough in a handling aspect to actually have a solid axle be a significant limitation to performance.

Taking a gentle curve on the highway at 80mph won't be any easier with IRS than a solid axle IMHO. Unless the highway has a million potholes and is in serious disrepair. I have driven both so that is what I am basing my experience on.

[AFSNightrod]

I agree. I think that if it is built right then the IRS will hold up just fine for the occaisional track day. I know I only plan on going to the track every once in awhile. Tires are too damn expensive! Plus there is a growing aftermarket for IRS as it is becoming more mainstream in the American cars like the GTO and CTS-V. If it is that serious I'm certain Moser or somebody will have a live-axle conversion for hardcore racers.

[Mr. Wyndham]

But Zeta is a mass-produced, multi-car platform. It isn't purely a Camaro chassis, which makes it less expensive right there...

[MerF]

Originally Posted by Rock36

This is just a gut reaction, but the more we talk about vette quality IRS, or vette quality this and that in the camaro, you start envisioning a more expensive camaro overall. There is a reason the vette costs as much as it does..

Oh believe me, I would be thrilled if it had Vette-quality, but I'm not expecting it...and as you put it, I'm hoping it doesn't. I don't WANT the Camaro to be too close to the Vette, because that's not what it's supposed to be all about.

In other words, I completely agree. I just like to imagine what it would be like.

[TAG UR IT]

I don't know...I think the ride quality is going to be phenomenal with this one....IRS, oh yeah....

[Mr. Wyndham]

Me too...

Thanks for moving me, too
lol

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

Me too...

Thanks for moving me, too
lol

Don't know what you're talking about.
Sorry...just trying to keep alike threads together. If there is a variance in the two (different type of topic/discussion regarding the same part), I let them be.