Shouldn't we be comparing this to the new Mustangs?

[camaro5]

Originally Posted by syr74

I simply provide the info, as stated earlier what you guys choose to do with it is up to you.

Thanks for the info. When posting Ford info here, expect backlash from some people, this IS a GM site.

I'm betting posters of Camaro info aren't entirely welcomed at a Mustang site either.

I'll look forward to 2011, but that's a long way off in automotive years, these days especially. Will the Mustang finally get IRS then?

The refresh that will compete with the Camaro is a dismal failure, IMHO.

Same ugly, cheap interior, changed a little. Same nice exterior, changed a little.

Same primitive solid rear axle.

Doors blown off by Camaros...Pure failure.

Cheap prices will keep 'em moving though. A car for all types.

[Max]

BMC Welcomes you...Come on over.

[playhard67]

This thread was about comparing a 2010 camaro to a 'presumed" 2010 Mustang. All of a sudden we're now comparing a 2010 Camaro to a "supposed" 2011 Mustang that is far away.

By 2011 Camaro will have an even more powerful car. Hmmmmm do I hear Z28??

Keep the comparison to 2010 to 2010.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by Max

Wow the guy hates fords.....But went on to say if it were not for the Mustang we would'nt have a new Camaro.........Hum, I geuss i should be on the lookout for mad Camaro owners...I knew i put that supercharger on for a reson.

so you could have as much horsepower as a stock LS3? lol


seriously, its not like we HATE the Mustang, its kind of like sibling rivalry... you always hate your brother or sister until someone else disses them... and then you defend them... and that is how I am with American iron, be it GM, Mopar or FoMoCo... and I've driven just about everything... Fords, Chevys, Ponchos, Oldsmobiles, Dodges, Plymouths, etc... you name it, I've probably driven at least one of 'em... and I just settled in on GM products because of their quality, performance and overall styling.

well, that and the fact that Fords suck :P

[blackZbandit]

Originally Posted by Max

Wow the guy hates fords.....But went on to say if it were not for the Mustang we would'nt have a new Camaro.........Hum, I geuss i should be on the lookout for mad Camaro owners...I knew i put that supercharger on for a reson.

I hate my mother in law but I love my wife... what's the difference?

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

and make no mistake, nobody wants a Mustang to compete more than I do... I WANT Ford to do well and I WANT Ford to build a really great car to compete with the Camaro... but this is the same battle that was going on in the '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s... and Mustang guys INSISTED that their cars were faster and all the magazines, test tracks and professional drivers proved otherwise... the Mustang is a nice car, but to say that it owns the Camaro is wrong... its NEVER owned the Camaro...

bottom line: bring it, Pony boys... we'll be waiting at the drag strips, deserted roads and red lights with our 5th gen Camaros... the Pony car wars are back!


VIVA LA MUSCLE CAR!

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

The funny thing is, I was always a GM guy and owned a 1974 Z28, a 1980 Z28, and a 1984 Z28. I ordered the '84 with the L69 H.O. engine option and the performance axle, so it was the top dog Z28 back then. The thought of ever owning a Ford never entered my mind in those days!

Then in 1987, a co-worker was telling me that his Ford Capri could beat my Z, and I'm like "yeah sure..." Well, one night we ended up next to each other on the highway at about 60 mph, we both punched it at the same time, and to my utter disbelief the Ford just pulled away from me. I gave up at 80 mph because I could see it was over. That was humbling to say the least. The next day the guy told me that he surprises Camaro/Firebird guys with his car all the time - it had the same 5.0 engine as the Mustang, but it was in this non-descript sleeper car, and that's exactly why he bought it.

So after that I did some research of my own, and to this day I still have that Car and Driver magazine with the above article in it. And the next car I bought was a 1987 Mustang GT. I liked the car so much that since then I bought a 1995 GT, and then the car I have now, the '05 GT.

The Camaro/Mustang rivalry has always been one of the best ones in American automotive history, but it wouldn't have been much of a rivalry if the Mustang never took the crown. So I'm just here to tell you that the rivalry still lives, and for a little while anyway, the Mustang did indeed own the Camaro.


ps - as I have said on this forum before, I have no blind loyalty either way. I love that the Camaro is back, that the rivalry is back, and that once again the consumer is the winner because we have a choice. The way things look now, I'll be buying a 2010 Camaro SS M6, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Ford comes back in 2010/11 with a formidable Mustang.

[SemperFi]

Originally Posted by UCF w00t

It's all speculation for now but it looks like the v6 Camaro and Camaro SS will still handle the v6 Mustang and Mustang GT respectively. According to Motor Trend, the new v6 will have the same power plant and the GT will basically get the Bullit's engine giving it 325-350hp.

This is correct. I think there are three available engines. Two V6's if im not mistaken. But it is a fact that the V8 Mustang GT will be unable to compete with the SS. For those of you with too much confidence in Ford... take a deep breath and relax.

[swifttal]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

If you noticed that wasn't the 350ci camaro, of which owned the mustang all through the 80s(since it was offered) and 90s. Have the 91 car and driver showing my z28 owning ford.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I agree with you that the Mustang played second fiddle to the Camaro performance-wise in the '60s, '70s, and '90s, but I would say you're wrong about the '80s. From 1987 to 1992, the Mustang did own the Camaro. And the magazines and professional drivers were the ones saying that. In fact, you should read this Car And Driver article from 1987 to refresh your memory (ironically enough, posted on a Camaro site):

http://www.thirdgen.org/best-america...river-june1987

The funny thing is, I was always a GM guy and owned a 1974 Z28, a 1980 Z28, and a 1984 Z28. I ordered the '84 with the L69 H.O. engine option and the performance axle, so it was the top dog Z28 back then. The thought of ever owning a Ford never entered my mind in those days!

I must admit that during the '80s, the Fox body LX models were seriously fast cars compared to their GT brethren and compared to the IROC cars... and you probably found one of the 3 articles from the '80s where the Mustang whipped a Camaro... but this one little stretch of history does not a pattern make... so I stand by my assertion that the Camaro has always been the final word in the Pony car market... the Mustang is the cheaper sales leading car and the Camaro is the performance car that people get when they want to win... and I'm quite positive that the Camaro will be more expensive than the Mustang in the next 2010+ models, too... but the question is whether or not the Mustang can hang onto those V6 sales... and whether Ford will be able to deliver a car that will outperform the SS models... which, since its return in 1996, the GT has been in the rear view mirror... and only after the Camaro was discontinued in 2002 did Ford come out with a car that could outperform the Camaro SS and Z28 from the factory... and even then, the Terminators were only slightly faster than a stock Z28/SS... my 2002 Z28 with long tubes and aftermarket exhaust completely hosed a 2003 Cobra and the guy was so mad about it, he took the car back to the dealership and demanded a reason why his car wasn't faster than mine... it was hilarious.

but I digress... the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for 2010 Camaro SS... and the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for the 2010 LS/LT Camaros, either... we wont start seeing the Mustang compete in the Pony car market again until 2011... and when we do, I suggest we start a thread and have this out at that time... but until we get some hard evidence about the 2011 Mustang's engine, transmission and performance, I suggest all the Mustang guys keep it to yourself, since there's NOTHING, I mean NOT A THING to suggest that the Mustang will do anything other than sell to the market that has made them famous so far: the girls.

[headpunter]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

I must admit that during the '80s, the Fox body LX models were seriously fast cars compared to their GT brethren and compared to the IROC cars... and you probably found one of the 3 articles from the '80s where the Mustang whipped a Camaro... but this one little stretch of history does not a pattern make... so I stand by my assertion that the Camaro has always been the final word in the Pony car market... the Mustang is the cheaper sales leading car and the Camaro is the performance car that people get when they want to win... and I'm quite positive that the Camaro will be more expensive than the Mustang in the next 2010+ models, too... but the question is whether or not the Mustang can hang onto those V6 sales... and whether Ford will be able to deliver a car that will outperform the SS models... which, since its return in 1996, the GT has been in the rear view mirror... and only after the Camaro was discontinued in 2002 did Ford come out with a car that could outperform the Camaro SS and Z28 from the factory... and even then, the Terminators were only slightly faster than a stock Z28/SS... my 2002 Z28 with long tubes and aftermarket exhaust completely hosed a 2003 Cobra and the guy was so mad about it, he took the car back to the dealership and demanded a reason why his car wasn't faster than mine... it was hilarious.

but I digress... the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for 2010 Camaro SS... and the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for the 2010 LS/LT Camaros, either... we wont start seeing the Mustang compete in the Pony car market again until 2011... and when we do, I suggest we start a thread and have this out at that time... but until we get some hard evidence about the 2011 Mustang's engine, transmission and performance, I suggest all the Mustang guys keep it to yourself, since there's NOTHING, I mean NOT A THING to suggest that the Mustang will do anything other than sell to the market that has made them famous so far: the girls.

there is a reason that the Small Block Chevy has won more races then any other engine.

[syr74]

Originally Posted by camaro5

I'll look forward to 2011, but that's a long way off in automotive years, these days especially. Will the Mustang finally get IRS then?

The 2011 Mustang will debut about a year after the 2010 Camaro/Mustang hit lots....so we are looking at seriously early model year debuts for all three. I wouldn't call a year a long time, but that is just my opinion on the issue.

IRS wont show up until the GRWD platform debuts, and for Mustang that means sometime around the 2013MY.

Originally Posted by camaro5

Same ugly, cheap interior, changed a little.

I actually think the interior looks quite different, the dash and door panels look completely different and are made of different materials and the seats are updated too. Only real holdover is the steering wheel, and even it gets so meaningful tweaks. Frankly, to be a mid-cycle refresh I am surprised they changed the interior, and the dash in particular, so much as this is an expensive part of the car to mess with.

Originally Posted by camaro5

Same nice exterior, changed a little.

I still haven't seen a good enough shot of the exterior to form a solid opinion. I do like the profile much better, but the devil is in the details.

Originally Posted by camaro5

Same primitive solid rear axle.

Still a SRA, but with some changes.

Originally Posted by camaro5

Doors blown off by Camaros...Pure failure.

I wouldn't say a 400+hp/370+lb-ft of torque coupe that weighs in at ~3600-3650lb is going to get it's doors blown off by the Camaro. Power to weight is pretty close with those baseline figures.

[srtclg1007]

Mustang will NEVER have the performance of a Camaro. Price is the key factor here (IMO). Ford does the most it can to the mustang, without driving the price up. Mustangs are a dime a dozen and Ford likes it that way.

[KatarHol]

Originally Posted by srtclg1007

Mustang will NEVER have the performance of a Camaro. Price is the key factor here (IMO). Ford does the most it can to the mustang, without driving the price up. Mustangs are a dime a dozen and Ford likes it that way.

anyways,your precious Camaro will be a dime a dozen with that low V6 price. Just wait until they're used and about 10K in 3-4 years,you think they won't be a dime a dozen then?? You better pray the Camaro is a dime a dozen if you want a car you don't own to continue.

[SilverTurtle]

Originally Posted by KatarHol

anyways,your precious Camaro will be a dime a dozen with that low V6 price. Just wait until they're used and about 10K in 3-4 years,you think they won't be a dime a dozen then?? You better pray the Camaro is a dime a dozen if you want a car you don't own to continue.

actually, I'm kind of hoping that the V6 models are a dime a dozen... and that Mustang drivers can't tell the difference between the V6 and V8 models until its too late... and then they go crying about how they missed a shift or couldn't get traction or that I jumped the gun or something like that when they try and justify losing to their friends, girlfriends or family.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by SilverTurtle

I must admit that during the '80s, the Fox body LX models were seriously fast cars compared to their GT brethren and compared to the IROC cars... and you probably found one of the 3 articles from the '80s where the Mustang whipped a Camaro... but this one little stretch of history does not a pattern make... so I stand by my assertion that the Camaro has always been the final word in the Pony car market...

Well, you've forced my hand. I know for a fact that there are more than 3 articles from the '80s where the Mustang beat the Camaro - because I actually have reprints in a file cabinet. Here we go:

=================================
Motor Trend Nov 1989 - Bang for the Buck

Camaro IROC-Z (305 c.i.) 0-60 7.83 seconds; 1/4 mile 16.28 @ 84.31 mph
Mustang LX 0-60 6.62 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.38 @ 91.52 mph
=================================
Motor Trend Sep 1988 - Top-Speed 10

Camaro IROC-Z (350 c.i.) 0-60 7.22 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.67 seconds
Mustang GT 0-60 7.16 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.60 seconds
=================================
Motor Trend Aug 1987 - Domestic Dynamite

Camaro IROC-Z (350 c.i.) 0-60 6.68 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.23 @ 91.2 mph
Mustang GT 0-60 6.54 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.13 @ 94.1 mph
=================================
Road & Track Oct 1986 - Ford Mustang GT vs Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z

Camaro IROC-Z (350 c.i.) 0-60 6.8 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.3 @ 90.5 mph
Mustang GT 0-60 6.7 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.3 @ 93.0 mph
=================================
Popular Science Sep 1986 - Hot Coupes

Camaro IROC-Z (305 c.i.) 0-60 8.5 seconds
Mustang GT 0-60 6.8 seconds
=================================
Road & Track Dec 1984 - Chevrolet Camaro IROC-Z vs Ford Mustang GT

Camaro IROC-Z (305 c.i.) 0-60 8.1 seconds; 1/4 mile 16.5 @ 90.0 mph
Mustang GT 0-60 7.2 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.9 @ 91.0 mph
=================================

So that's 6 additional articles that I happen to have on hand. Does anyone doubt there are more? My point is that, in the '80s, the Mustang was not only competitive with the Camaro, but it actually pulled ahead of the Camaro for a stretch of 6 years or so, and I was just correcting your statement where you said that the Camaro owned the Mustang in every decade from the '60s through the '90s... The Camaro did not own the Mustang in the '80s.

And like I said in my original post, I found this out first-hand when I was whipped convincingly in my '84 L69 Z28 5-speed by a Ford Capri 5.0!

Just for fun, I have a reprint from Road & Track Dec 1991, where yes, the 1992 Camaro Z28 does beat the 1992 Mustang LX (15.2 @ 92.0 mph vs 15.5 @ 90.0 mph). But what's interesting is that they compare these cars to the 1970 Boss 302 Mustang and the 1969 Z28 Camaro. And guess what, the rivalry was pretty good back in 1970 too!

1969 Camaro Z28 0-60 7.4 seconds; 1/4 mile 15.1 @ 95.0 mph
1970 Mustang Boss 302 0-60 6.9 seconds; 1/4 mile 14.9 @ 96.0 mph

[GREY03COBRA]

Hey SilverTurtle did your 2002 Z28 run 12.6 @ 113.6 stock?? NO.. Interesting because my 03 Cobra did. Will the 2010 SS run that? NOT LIKELY... Interesting that a car seven years newer is still slower...

The 03/04 Cobras are ready and waiting...... Be Afraid....Be very Afraid...


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/0...made_21593.htm



I am just playing with you guys. I am so happy that the Camaro is back. Just like the old days. Let's have some fun boys.

[Max]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Hey SilverTurtle did your 2002 Z28 run 12.6 @ 113.6 stock?? NO.. Interesting because my 03 Cobra did. Will the 2010 SS run that? NOT LIKELY... Interesting that a car seven years newer is still slower...

The 03/04 Cobras are ready and waiting...... Be Afraid....Be very Afraid...


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/0...made_21593.htm



I am just playing with you guys. I am so happy that the Camaro is back. Just like the old days. Let's have some fun boys.

Thats what i'm talking about......Have you been wixed by a ford lately.

[yotaman96]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Hey SilverTurtle did your 2002 Z28 run 12.6 @ 113.6 stock?? NO.. Interesting because my 03 Cobra did. Will the 2010 SS run that? NOT LIKELY... Interesting that a car seven years newer is still slower...

The 03/04 Cobras are ready and waiting...... Be Afraid....Be very Afraid...


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/0...made_21593.htm



I am just playing with you guys. I am so happy that the Camaro is back. Just like the old days. Let's have some fun boys.

The speedometer shot in that video is badass. How much power is that car making?

[s.norman]

i would bet that the new ss will beat the 03 cobra

[TAG UR IT]

Originally Posted by GREY03COBRA

Hey SilverTurtle did your 2002 Z28 run 12.6 @ 113.6 stock?? NO.. Interesting because my 03 Cobra did. Will the 2010 SS run that? NOT LIKELY... Interesting that a car seven years newer is still slower...

The 03/04 Cobras are ready and waiting...... Be Afraid....Be very Afraid...


http://videos.streetfire.net/video/0...made_21593.htm



I am just playing with you guys. I am so happy that the Camaro is back. Just like the old days. Let's have some fun boys.

I know my name is not Turtle, but my 02 Z28 ran a 12.74 at 111.18 mph. Stock? Well, I don't really think that a Z28 STOCK can be compared to a Cobra...STOCK. But what do I know about Fords.......then again....

My Z28 had a CAI, lid, K&N, Y-pipe, and Loudmouth exhaust. Seriously, those mods can't be too different from the stock Cobra, can they?

and welcome to the site!

[Krazy and old]

Originally Posted by OKC08SkyR/L

The Shelby GT500 is still top dog with their supercharged 500hp. The Z28 should have at least 500hp, weigh less and have IRS. That is what I am waiting for.

Really - think it will happen?

I'm to (old) I mean smart to street race, would love to own another 500 horses though.

[StoutFiles]

the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for 2010 Camaro SS... and the 2010 Mustang is NOT going to be competition for the 2010 LS/LT Camaros

Every car is competition for the Camaro. If you want a Camaro and your wife wants you to save gas instead and get a Toyota Prius...then the Toyota Prius is competition for the Camaro.

That said, a Mustang is in the exact same market as the Camaro. They are direct competition...if you'd hop off your fanboy wagon you'd realize that.

[Sir Charles]

Now it will be the Mustang VS Camaro Vs Challenger. Mopar is looking at bringing the Charger back to a 2 door in 2010.

[TT C6]

Scott and GM have DESTROYED the current and new Mustang with the 5th Gen Camaro. It's not even a competition.
Ford products are trash. The only thing good on the Mustang is the TVS supercharger. I have always compared the F-body to the Corvette. The 4th Gen Camaro used to offer Corvette power-to-weight ratio with a working class pricetag and image.
Unfortunately, the 5th Gen Camaro's ratio is nowhere near the current Corvette's.

[Supermans]

Originally Posted by StoutFiles

Every car is competition for the Camaro. If you want a Camaro and your wife wants you to save gas instead and get a Toyota Prius...then the Toyota Prius is competition for the Camaro.

That said, a Mustang is in the exact same market as the Camaro. They are direct competition...if you'd hop off your fanboy wagon you'd realize that.

Drop an LS3 in a prius and it becomes competition against a camaro...With your logic, a motorcycle would be competition to a camaro as well and a scooter..