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Old 06-12-2010, 01:31 PM   #1
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What the Z28 is to me...

the Z28.

It SHOULD NOT be a 6 cyl twin turbo
It SHOULD NOT be an SS with a superchager thrown on... this is done every day!

It SHOULD have a LSx... naturally aspirated, maybe tweaked to put more than 500hp out. I dont think 74hp is enough to make people make the jump.... It should be in the 525-550 range... WITHOUT forced induction! This is easily done if GM gets their aahhem off of the Government/EPAs aahhemm... A handful of cars outside the CAFE regs wont kill them...

It SHOULD also:

- be based on a 1SS... no leather, no frills, no RS. You want frills, get the SS. It SHOULD have a leather wrap steering wheel and shift knob though... Thats your direct contact with the car, it should feel good!

- have the 4 guage pack.

- be availiable in auto or manual WITHOUT DOD on the auto or CAGS on the manual.

- have the track pack that they should make an option on the SS.

- have a short throw shifter in the manual

- have GMPP agressive exhaust, not the Z06 dual tone exhaust... it should ALWAYS be loud and open!

- have open style cold air intake

- have a 4.10 rear gear

- have stainless braided brake lines with red calipers (Z06 paint scheme) with better pads. The Brembo calipers are fine.

- hardened axels might be a good idea.

- have brake cooling ducts like the Z06.

- have some sort of cowl induction hood... THATS FUNCTIONAL... like the Z06

- be availble in a limited number of colors. No RJT, IBM, SG or CGM...... Only BLACK, RED, WHITE, ORANGE, YELLOW, BLUE (since they are going to add a nice bright one) or SILVER.

- the badge should have a RED "Z" and BLACK "28" in the same font style and location as the RS or SS badges.

- made lighter... reduce the sound deadening all over the car. Take out some of the useless stuff weighing the car down... like the subwoofer in the dash, the onstar computer, the air pump in the trunk!

- No options... you pick your tranny, your color, your stripes and thats all... it is what it is...

Keep it simple.

The car needs to take the Z back to its roots... an all out performance car.... loud but fast as hell and great in the corners. Not something you want to take to dinner at Ruth Chris's Steakhouse... If thats what you want, get the SS. Make the Z28 an all out, balls to the wall performace oriented Camaro...

Oh and do all this and it should be very similar to the price of an SS... $40K TOPS! Remember its not a Corvette and we are trading frills and comfort for performance....

Think back to 1998ish... GM came out with the FRC Corvette. It was lighter, faster and cheaper than a base coupe... Now it blossomed into the Z06 and the price skyrocketed.... We need to be thinking about this car... without the price hike.

This will make the car sell to a small number... just like the FRC did. GM needs to look at the Z28 as a car for the enthusiasts, NOT THE MASSES...

Of course this is just my opinion but I'd buy one!

Thanks for reading,
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:44 PM   #2
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i really did enjoy reading this! thanks for posting!
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Old 06-12-2010, 03:48 PM   #3
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:27 PM   #4
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They are good wishes I guess, if that's the kind of thing you like. But it makes no business sense.
Good luck with that.
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Old 06-12-2010, 04:33 PM   #5
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i agree with most of this... other than the cowl hood, hardened axles, just because the cost factor wouldn't justify it, imho.

but the z28 should be a driver's car. no sunroof option either.

and it should come with 18's, with bigger rubber.
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Old 06-12-2010, 05:03 PM   #6
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They are good wishes I guess, if that's the kind of thing you like. But it makes no business sense.
Good luck with that.
Explain to me how this doesnt make business sense and the ZR1 does? It would be exactly what it was supposed to be, A wolf... Does it need to be in sheeps clothes? Make it a wolf in all terms...

Maybe they should make it a waterdown version of a performance car... oh wait, they did, its called an SS. Dont get me wrong I LOVE my car but I had to change a bunch of stuff that was watered down to fit for the masses. The OEM shifter is too sloppy, the exhaust it too quiet, the suspension is too loose, the car rides to high, the stock tune is poor... all done that way for business sense.

The Z28 should come ready to rule. GM doesnt have to sell 100,000 of them. The LT/SS combo can take care of the "business sense"... its just a package, like the ZR1... makes sense to me.

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i agree with most of this... other than the cowl hood, hardened axles, just because the cost factor wouldn't justify it, imho.

but the z28 should be a driver's car. no sunroof option either.

and it should come with 18's, with bigger rubber.
yea.. the axels where a stretch. the regular ones would *probably be fine.

right, no sunroof.. adds weight

ohh... good one 18's for sure!

I like that... a driver's car. It doesnt need to be "comfy".
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Old 06-12-2010, 05:30 PM   #7
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Apex Paul and I have had this conversation before and we would love for it to be along the same lines as the Cobra R. Basically a street legal race car with no a/c, no sunroof, no audio, no rear seat, no sound deadening, and no power anything. Add some lightweight body panels and functional front and rear diffusers. Drop in an LSX and a nice suspension and brake package and let it rip.

However, we know this is not what the vehicle we all know as the upcoming Z28 will be. But maybe we will get something like it before the 5th Generation goes away as a limited edition with a different name.

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Old 06-12-2010, 05:34 PM   #8
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No red calipers please. Tired of the look. And they need to offer the Z in some unique colors that fit the car. Oh, and I got no problem with a factory SC.
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:25 PM   #9
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I think I'm probably a very small minority on this forum in that I don't really care what engine the Z28 has. I want a road course camaro. I want it to have a suspension that makes my RX8 feel like a wobbly POS in the turns, and enough balls to power through the apex without playing the momentum games i have to play in my 8 to make that happen.

Thats my wish list. A car with power that i can throw through the twisties as good, or better, than my current car without losing the rear end.


I definitely like the suggestions of a bare bones drivers car, though. I hate leather interior, and as much as i like my sunroof in my 8, i definitely don't need one.
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:36 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jrhaus76 View Post
Explain to me how this doesnt make business sense and the ZR1 does? It would be exactly what it was supposed to be, A wolf... Does it need to be in sheeps clothes? Make it a wolf in all terms...

Maybe they should make it a waterdown version of a performance car... oh wait, they did, its called an SS. Dont get me wrong I LOVE my car but I had to change a bunch of stuff that was watered down to fit for the masses. The OEM shifter is too sloppy, the exhaust it too quiet, the suspension is too loose, the car rides to high, the stock tune is poor... all done that way for business sense.

The Z28 should come ready to rule. GM doesnt have to sell 100,000 of them. The LT/SS combo can take care of the "business sense"... its just a package, like the ZR1... makes sense to me.
Have you looked at what you can get on a ZR-1? It has a Bose sound system, memory seats, and leather seats.There is an upgraded leather interior package on it for God's sake. It has a leather DASHBOARD. But yeah, I guess the ZR-1 is a watered-down version of a performance car, seeing as it's frilly.

The current Camaro is already getting blasted about its' cheap interior and you guys want it cheaper? The Z needs to compete with its' arch nemesis, the GT 500. The GT 500 has 6 way adjustable power leather seats (you can even get them 2 toned), a 10 speaker sound system, Navigation package, dual climate zone HVAC and even an optional GLASS ROOF.

In this day and age people want to have the cake and eat it. They want high horsepower numbers AND luxury. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore with the buying public, and the sales numbers of specialty "stripper" models reflects that. That's why I'm saying it doesn't make business sense.

GM doesn't need to sell 100,000 Z/28's, but why not try? Or at least not cripple their sales by building a car too 'hardcore'
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Keedy View Post
I think I'm probably a very small minority on this forum in that I don't really care what engine the Z28 has. I want a road course camaro. I want it to have a suspension that makes my RX8 feel like a wobbly POS in the turns, and enough balls to power through the apex without playing the momentum games i have to play in my 8 to make that happen.

Thats my wish list. A car with power that i can throw through the twisties as good, or better, than my current car without losing the rear end.


I definitely like the suggestions of a bare bones drivers car, though. I hate leather interior, and as much as i like my sunroof in my 8, i definitely don't need one.
I had a 2004 RX~8... gonna be tough to make this fat a$$ go like the RX throuh the turns. I agree the torque on the RX was very poor...

With the right mods though, the Camaro takes the twisites very well.

I went from the RX~8 to a 2007 Corvette to the Camaro and I could actually drive the RX~8 faster than the Corvette or Camaro though my back country roads . When it comes to road courses, its not all about power.
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Old 06-12-2010, 06:39 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by djsnoflake View Post
Have you looked at what you can get on a ZR-1? It has a Bose sound system, memory seats, and leather seats.There is an upgraded leather interior package on it for God's sake. It has a leather DASHBOARD. But yeah, I guess the ZR-1 is a watered-down version of a performance car, seeing as it's frilly.

The current Camaro is already getting blasted about its' cheap interior and you guys want it cheaper? The Z needs to compete with its' arch nemesis, the GT 500. The GT 500 has 6 way adjustable power leather seats (you can even get them 2 toned), a 10 speaker sound system, Navigation package, dual climate zone HVAC and even an optional GLASS ROOF.

In this day and age people want to have the cake and eat it. They want high horsepower numbers AND luxury. Bare bones doesn't cut it anymore with the buying public, and the sales numbers of specialty "stripper" models reflects that. That's why I'm saying it doesn't make business sense.

GM doesn't need to sell 100,000 Z/28's, but why not try? Or at least not cripple their sales by building a car too 'hardcore'
Well put...
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jrhaus76 View Post
the Z28.

It SHOULD NOT be a 6 cyl twin turbo
It SHOULD NOT be an SS with a superchager thrown on... this is done every day!

It SHOULD have a LSx... naturally aspirated, maybe tweaked to put more than 500hp out. I dont think 74hp is enough to make people make the jump.... It should be in the 525-550 range... WITHOUT forced induction! This is easily done if GM gets their aahhem off of the Government/EPAs aahhemm... A handful of cars outside the CAFE regs wont kill them...

It SHOULD also:

- be based on a 1SS... no leather, no frills, no RS. You want frills, get the SS. It SHOULD have a leather wrap steering wheel and shift knob though... Thats your direct contact with the car, it should feel good!

- have the 4 guage pack.

- be availiable in auto or manual WITHOUT DOD on the auto or CAGS on the manual.

- have the track pack that they should make an option on the SS.

- have a short throw shifter in the manual

- have GMPP agressive exhaust, not the Z06 dual tone exhaust... it should ALWAYS be loud and open!

- have open style cold air intake

- have a 4.10 rear gear

- have stainless braided brake lines with red calipers (Z06 paint scheme) with better pads. The Brembo calipers are fine.

- hardened axels might be a good idea.

- have brake cooling ducts like the Z06.

- have some sort of cowl induction hood... THATS FUNCTIONAL... like the Z06

- be availble in a limited number of colors. No RJT, IBM, SG or CGM...... Only BLACK, RED, WHITE, ORANGE, YELLOW, BLUE (since they are going to add a nice bright one) or SILVER.

- the badge should have a RED "Z" and BLACK "28" in the same font style and location as the RS or SS badges.

- made lighter... reduce the sound deadening all over the car. Take out some of the useless stuff weighing the car down... like the subwoofer in the dash, the onstar computer, the air pump in the trunk!

- No options... you pick your tranny, your color, your stripes and thats all... it is what it is...

Keep it simple.

The car needs to take the Z back to its roots... an all out performance car.... loud but fast as hell and great in the corners. Not something you want to take to dinner at Ruth Chris's Steakhouse... If thats what you want, get the SS. Make the Z28 an all out, balls to the wall performace oriented Camaro...

Oh and do all this and it should be very similar to the price of an SS... $40K TOPS! Remember its not a Corvette and we are trading frills and comfort for performance....

Think back to 1998ish... GM came out with the FRC Corvette. It was lighter, faster and cheaper than a base coupe... Now it blossomed into the Z06 and the price skyrocketed.... We need to be thinking about this car... without the price hike.

This will make the car sell to a small number... just like the FRC did. GM needs to look at the Z28 as a car for the enthusiasts, NOT THE MASSES...

Of course this is just my opinion but I'd buy one!

Thanks for reading,
$40k for all that is rediculous, c'mon man. Atleast be a little less of a dreamer and be more realistic.

You basically want an LS7, but with ~10% more power.

You want an exhaust that would probably be illegal (technically) in most states.

BTW The Z06 price skyrocketed because it has parts that have real value. You want a $35k car with a bunch of added options/accessories for only ~$5k more. And that's with an engine with a higher output than even the expensive LS7 puts out.


Not to mention this dream "Z28" would in all likelyhood be facing a FAT gas guzzler tax!!

WAKE UP!!!!

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Old 06-12-2010, 08:45 PM   #14
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The Z28 was always the little brother(originally to the SS350/SS396, then to the IROC-Z and finally back to the SS). It was a roadcourse track car that didn't put out the most power when it was originally introduced. They weren't full of frills, they couldn't be had with A/C or power steering. Would it sell today that way? Not many.
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Old 06-12-2010, 09:50 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by THE EVIL TW1N View Post
$40k for all that is rediculous, c'mon man. Atleast be a little less of a dreamer and be more realistic.

You basically want an LS7, but with ~10% more power.

You want an exhaust that would probably be illegal (technically) in most states.

BTW The Z06 price skyrocketed because it has parts that have real value. You want a $35k car with a bunch of added options/accessories for only ~$5k more. And that's with an engine with a higher output than even the expensive LS7 puts out.


Not to mention this dream "Z28" would in all likelyhood be facing a FAT gas guzzler tax!!

WAKE UP!!!!

First it isnt a $35K car AND a bunch of stuff added... Whats a 1SS non RS go for?.. Maybe $31 or $32.

They could save a lot by taking away a lot of the other stuff I mention.

What did I put on there that is all that expensive? A $400 short throw sifter? A $500 set of springs and sway bars? A more free flowing exhaust? A open CAI? Some 4.10 gears?

Nothing I put was that unrealistic. Whats unrealistic is to think that people are going to be stupid enough to spend 50-60 grand on a PRODUCTION Camaro. it needs to be a reasonable price point, not like the grossly overprice SRT8 and GT500. Sure, a sucker is born every day but nothing that I put was shooting for the moon. As far as the engine goes... who knows and getting those number aren't that difficult.
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Old 06-12-2010, 10:32 PM   #16
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Why are so many wanting to narrow options. What if your narrow option ideas are not put in GM's plans. Would it not be better to have a long list of potential options and then let the consumer decide. I sure do not want a bounch of clone Z28 out there. Lets say they sell XX,XXX Z28's do you really want the options to be that limited. So you car is one of xx,xxx. I would much rather have my car one of 200ish. I realize that a Sunroof would not be old school. However I would sure like one in mine. I like the open feel. I think GM is smart enough to appeal to more consumers than just to historians. Give me options or I will give them a NO SALE.
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhaus76 View Post
the Z28.

It SHOULD NOT be a 6 cyl twin turbo
Agree

Quote:
It SHOULD NOT be an SS with a superchager thrown on... this is done every day

It SHOULD have a LSx... naturally aspirated, maybe tweaked to put more than 500hp out. I dont think 74hp is enough to make people make the jump.... It should be in the 525-550 range... WITHOUT forced induction! This is easily done if GM gets their aahhem off of the Government/EPAs aahhemm... A handful of cars outside the CAFE regs wont kill them...
I don't really agree. If this is going to be the top Camaro, it has to compete with the GT500. A supercharged LSx is going to be the best way to go about doing that

Quote:
It SHOULD also:

- be based on a 1SS... no leather, no frills, no RS. You want frills, get the SS. It SHOULD have a leather wrap steering wheel and shift knob though... Thats your direct contact with the car, it should feel good!
No. You could get a 1st gen Z28 with all the options so there's no reason that this car shouldn't be the same.


Quote:
- be availiable in auto or manual WITHOUT DOD on the auto or CAGS on the manual.

- have the track pack that they should make an option on the SS.

- have a short throw shifter in the manual
Agreed.

Quote:
- have GMPP agressive exhaust, not the Z06 dual tone exhaust... it should ALWAYS be loud and open!
Agressive, yes. Not too loud though. Too loud can get you in trouble with the law so GM won't offer a really loud exhaust on the car.

Quote:
- have open style cold air intake
Maybe not open style but a less restrictive system would be nice.

Quote:
- have a 4.10 rear gear
That would be a nice option but shouldn't be standard. Not everyone is going to drag this car so it shouldn't be geared that way unless the customer wants it.

Quote:
- have stainless braided brake lines with red calipers (Z06 paint scheme) with better pads. The Brembo calipers are fine.
Not really necessary. Extra cost that I wouldn't want.


Quote:
- hardened axels might be a good idea.
Yep.

Quote:
- have brake cooling ducts like the Z06.
Meh.

Quote:
- have some sort of cowl induction hood... THATS FUNCTIONAL... like the Z06
As long as it looks good.


Quote:
- be availble in a limited number of colors. No RJT, IBM, SG or CGM...... Only BLACK, RED, WHITE, ORANGE, YELLOW, BLUE (since they are going to add a nice bright one) or SILVER.
Nah. Just make all colors available. Maybe offer a Z28 exclusive color though.

Quote:
- made lighter... reduce the sound deadening all over the car. Take out some of the useless stuff weighing the car down... like the subwoofer in the dash, the onstar computer, the air pump in the trunk!
Needs to be lighter for sure. Onstar will always be there.

-
Quote:
No options... you pick your tranny, your color, your stripes and thats all... it is what it is...
Again, you could get the 1st gen with a lot of goodies. Also, this car is going to be quite a bit more than a 2SS so it needs to have all the amenities that the 2SS has.

Quote:
The car needs to take the Z back to its roots... an all out performance car.... loud but fast as hell and great in the corners. Not something you want to take to dinner at Ruth Chris's Steakhouse... If thats what you want, get the SS. Make the Z28 an all out, balls to the wall performace oriented Camaro...
They won't do that if they want to sell a lot of them. You're seriously limiting your customer base offering a car this expensive that doesn't have the 2SS options available. The base car can come without but there's nothing wrong with offering the extras as options.


Quote:
Oh and do all this and it should be very similar to the price of an SS... $40K TOPS! Remember its not a Corvette and we are trading frills and comfort for performance....
Not possible. Keep in mind that all of this stuff you're posting will only add cost to a 2SS. It won't be anywhere near $40k with all of this stuff.

Quote:
Think back to 1998ish... GM came out with the FRC Corvette. It was lighter, faster and cheaper than a base coupe... Now it blossomed into the Z06 and the price skyrocketed.... We need to be thinking about this car... without the price hike.
Same drivetrain as the base Vette though. It was faster because it was lighter and it wasn't that much cheaper. The Z06 had a completely different drivetrain with more power, suspension, wheels/tires, etc. That's why it costs so much more.

Quote:
This will make the car sell to a small number... just like the FRC did. GM needs to look at the Z28 as a car for the enthusiasts, NOT THE MASSES...
The FRC is rare because it didn't sell well, not because GM limited the car. Most Vette buyers wanted a targa top on the Vette unless they were getting considerably more performance.


Nice topic though! Thanks for posting.
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Old 06-13-2010, 02:06 AM   #18
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To the OP. I think you should be able to get a new Z28 with little options but if you want to throw everything but the kitchen sink at her than I think you should be able to do that too. This will satisfy alot bigger of a customer base. The LS7 is not going to happen and I think it shouldnt for many reasons. First and formost is that a LS7 Z28 is not going to compete with the target rival GT500 while meeting emmision standards. I know everyone wants this car to be light, crazy powerfull and can handle like its on rails but you cant have all of those and keep it in a good competitive price range. The bad thing about it is the only way to keep the car light is to do a NA motor, but that would mean it would not meet its HP goal. The only way for the car to meet its HP goal is with Forced Induction and that meens its going to get heavier. They could go the SC route while making a aluminum frame and using carbon fiber body panels to keep the weight down but what do you think that would do to the price? I am sorry they are putting the Z28 name on it while adding weight and a supercharger but this is the reality im afraid. I think they are using the Z28 name because they have little options on what to call it. I would have prefered ZL1 or maybe a completely new title. I think alot of us need to stop comparing this new car to the original Z28 and need to accept that Gm is calling it the Z28 because they felt that was the only name availible that was widely familar.

I for one would have liked the Z28 to be a tweaked SS. It would be a manual only car with a shorter throwing more precise shifter, 3.73 gears standard with the availibility to upgrade to 4.10, lighter wheels with wider skickier tires, beefier control arms with stiffer bushings, stiffer springs with 1" lower ride height, re valved better shocks geared for handeling, better sway bars with stiffer bushings, improved brakes, a LS3 with a different cam and valve springs that are more aggresive, improved air induction and exhaust manifold and a more aggesive tune with a 7000 Rpm red line. The car would have a base MSRP of about 36K and you would be able to option it out like the SS. This would compete very well with the current GT that has the 3.73 and brembo package. You could then make the supercharged Camaro and call it ZL1 or whatever to directly compete with the GT500. All of this is not going to happen but it is what I think should have if it was a perfect world.
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:23 AM   #19
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Not exactly the car I'm looking for, however, that's one Heck of a Z28
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Old 06-14-2010, 05:40 PM   #20
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Hell yeah, I'd buy one!
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Torque !!!!!! It means you could have fat girls in your car and it will still be fast
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Old 06-14-2010, 05:53 PM   #21
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Not what I see in a Z/28 ,but to each is own.
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Old 06-14-2010, 07:30 PM   #22
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For what you want, it won't cost 40k. Your idea was to take a ~$31k car and add $9k worth of go-fast goodies ... well, that won't work out, at least not with the parts list you have. The 525-550 hp NA engine alone would eat up most of that budget. And the supercharged LSA (which is not just a supercharged LS3) would cost about the same (if not less), with at least as much power and a lot more torque, and its development and tooling has already been paid for by the CTS-V.

GM could do the car you propose, maybe, but not for the price you'd like (though thats true for just about every dream Z28 on this forum). Overall, I like your concept and I even planned out a similar one a few months ago, with a powerful NA engine and attention paid to keeping the car light. I think my target was 3600 lbs or so with over 500 hp, with things like light weight body panels and base LS interior. And I think I claimed mid to high 40's for the price
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:57 PM   #23
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JR HAUS.
Put my name down for one.That spec will suit me down to the ground.
I used that philosophy when i made a commitment to buy a 1ss.The cash i saved on leather and interior options,i spent on performance parts,it is a performance car after all.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:30 PM   #24
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Do you really think the GT500 is grossly overpriced?? Think about the performance.. I think it's in line. In fact it’s probably one of the best bang for the buck cars out.

The 1999 FRC Vette wasn't that special that's why the price jumped when it changed to the Z06. The FRC would be be like keeping the same LS3 engine, shedding maybe 100 lbs, some suspension, and stiffening the chassis. Not a whole lot to it.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:42 PM   #25
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OP is closer to a ZL1 than Z/28...

It needs a tight wound little D.I. 5.3 litre 9,000 rpm redline angry mouse motor, dry sump oiling, massaged gas tank,
light weight Recaro interior, lightening tricks without pissing off the bean counters, CTS-V brakes, 18" wheels, fat tires, stiffer suspension, sways and hi-durometer bushings, ss brake lines, ~4.30 rear axle ratio and close ratio tranny. ... and a short throw shifter.

THAT is a Z/28
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