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Old 10-29-2008, 11:04 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Tie View Post
The Accord is NOT a competitor for the Camaro. Granted, every car is aiming for a slice of the pie, and is technically a competitor (heck, even the Camaro and Corvette will compete against each other for sales now).

But sorry folks, the Accord is NOT a direct competitor. Nor is the Camry/Solara. Nor is the Mazda 6. Nor is the Nissan Altima or Maxima. Nor is the Civic, Corolla, or any other front wheel drive family vehicle. They are NOT direct competitors, and I they shouldn't be compared at all (except for the import fanatics that are holding onto some hope).
This is kind of thinking is exactly what has put GM shares at a value they were in 1929! And Market share cut in 1/2 in a decade.

Almost junk rated along with Ford.

I have owned 27 GM products. 25 were new. When all GM had in 2000 was a 20+ year old F body design (with a hump in the floor so big the passenger had no leg room), a WE BUILD EXCITEMENT Grand AM ...WITH A 4CYL manual only, OR Sunfire (Cavalier ) my 2 sons living at home (19 and 21 ) said "DAD ... LOOK AT THE ACCORD or Solara " if Mom wants a stick shift.(from our Vette days)

We did ........WE BOUGHT. Oil changes only....No recalls no rattles no bullshit.

Now those 2 drivers are 27 and 29. GM has to win them over. They and the generation behind them WILL NOT buy this car because of it nostalgic looks or a set of 69 gauges at the shifter or because Grampa said so!

Like it or not Toyota will be # 1 next year. We let this happen because we accepted crap for too long. My NBS Silverado is the best of the 10 Chevrolet trucks I have owned. Far better than Tundra too. G8 is a great value and the build quality is as good as anybody. Finally GM gets it.!!!!!!!!

Now is not the time to rest .... GM buying Chryco will not be any better than MB buying it. Just a diversion and sapping of concentration on the real competition. It is a Global Market. That Honda coupe handles better and accelerates quicker than any of my Vettes did. They are a stealth rocket. If you have not driven one then you should not be saying they are not a competitor.

Re this $28000 ??? ...take out the $2500 Navi. APPLES TO APPLES now the same price and you can remote the windows without a key on the Honda. (and a few more tricks)

Winston Churchill said those who fail to know history are doomed to repeat it.

GM Ignored the foreign competition once .....they will not survive if we let them do that again.

Then who will do the warranty?
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Old 10-29-2008, 11:39 PM   #70
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OK, I agree that a fully loaded V6 Camaro 2LT costs about the same as the top end V6 Honda give or take a few extra's here and there.. However one is a tuner sports car and the other is an American muscle car. Two different segments that appeal to two different markets. Granted the Camaro aftermarket team is trying to appeal to the riced up Honda market and I agree with you that they should be trying to. The V6 Camaro with a mroe advanced engine than whats in the more powerful V8 can be upgraded with different parts to boost its speed. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds for a V6 is not a slouch and should compete well with other foriegn brands not to mention its direct American competition..At least for this year until Ford trumps it with their 2010 V6 engine they have planned.. So you see we are arguing about nothing here since we both agree that GM does need to pay attention to and attract every group they can.

Now, my comparison of the base Camaro at $22,000 should be a better buy than a base Honda Accord 2 door coupe at the same price. Not just in looks but performance in my opinion. Forget the extra's and so forth, if you want a real comparison you have to take into account stock base vs stock base model..


Comparison Test: 2008 Honda Accord Coupe vs. 2008 Nissan Altima Coupe

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do.../pageId=132395

Both front wheel drive while camaro is rear wheel drive..

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V-6 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)

Base Price: $28,945
Price as Tested: $28,945
0 - 60 (sec): 6.3

vs

Nissan Altima 3.5 SE 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)
Base Price: $25,595
Price as Tested: $29,490
0 - 60 (sec): 6.2

VS

2010 V6 Camaro
Base price: $22,995
Fully Loaded: $26,580
0-60 (sec) 5.9 (perhaps 5.8 as we don't know yet the exact numbers)

As you can see the Camaro is not only a better looking coupe, but also cheaper and faster stock for stock..
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:29 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
OK, I agree that a fully loaded V6 Camaro 2LT costs about the same as the top end V6 Honda give or take a few extra's here and there.. However one is a tuner sports car and the other is an American muscle car. Two different segments that appeal to two different markets. Granted the Camaro aftermarket team is trying to appeal to the riced up Honda market and I agree with you that they should be trying to. The V6 Camaro with a mroe advanced engine than whats in the more powerful V8 can be upgraded with different parts to boost its speed. 0-60 in 5.9 seconds for a V6 is not a slouch and should compete well with other foriegn brands not to mention its direct American competition..At least for this year until Ford trumps it with their 2010 V6 engine they have planned.. So you see we are arguing about nothing here since we both agree that GM does need to pay attention to and attract every group they can.

Now, my comparison of the base Camaro at $22,000 should be a better buy than a base Honda Accord 2 door coupe at the same price. Not just in looks but performance in my opinion. Forget the extra's and so forth, if you want a real comparison you have to take into account stock base vs stock base model..


Comparison Test: 2008 Honda Accord Coupe vs. 2008 Nissan Altima Coupe

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do.../pageId=132395

Both front wheel drive while camaro is rear wheel drive..

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V-6 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)

Base Price: $28,945
Price as Tested: $28,945
0 - 60 (sec): 6.3

vs

Nissan Altima 3.5 SE 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)
Base Price: $25,595
Price as Tested: $29,490
0 - 60 (sec): 6.2

VS

2010 V6 Camaro
Base price: $22,995
Fully Loaded: $26,580
0-60 (sec) 5.9 (perhaps 5.8 as we don't know yet the exact numbers)

As you can see the Camaro is not only a better looking coupe, but also cheaper and faster stock for stock..
knock at least 3/10ths off those times because edmunds won't properly launch a car. And looks are always subjective.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:31 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
Comparison Test: 2008 Honda Accord Coupe vs. 2008 Nissan Altima Coupe

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do.../pageId=132395

Both front wheel drive while camaro is rear wheel drive..

2008 Honda Accord EX-L V-6 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)

Base Price: $28,945
Price as Tested: $28,945
0 - 60 (sec): 6.3

vs

Nissan Altima 3.5 SE 2dr Coupe (3.5L 6cyl 6M)
Base Price: $25,595
Price as Tested: $29,490
0 - 60 (sec): 6.2

VS

2010 V6 Camaro
Base price: $22,995
Fully Loaded: $26,580
0-60 (sec) 5.9 (perhaps 5.8 as we don't know yet the exact numbers)
What did I say about edmunds? lol You guys really can't use Edmund's straight line performance, because they are WAY OFF... They said my 2006 Cobalt SS did 0-60 in like 6.5 seconds and it does 0-60 in like 5.9.... They can't drive for sh*t...

C&D has more accurate 0-60 times. I've even spoken to staff @ C&D and found out how they measure 0-60 they use way more precise equipment, vs Edmunds who has admitted right in half of their articles they use the G-tech hand held units to measure straight line performance and they are way off...

"Taken from C&D's short take on the Nissan Altima Coupe V6... The coupe drives very much like a slightly lighter, stiffer, and smaller Altima sedan. That means it is pretty darned fast in V-6 form, with 0-to-60-mph acceleration happening in 5.8 seconds (0.1 second quicker than the sedan) and a quarter-mile in 14.6 seconds at 97 mph."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ce+page-2.html

also taken from C&D...

"...the Accord coupe is a better machine than the Altima. It’s certainly fast. The sonorous and smooth 3.5-liter V-6 engine makes a solid 268 horsepower and 248 pound-feet of torque, enough to motivate the car from 0 to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds, 0.2 second quicker than the Altima. The Accord reaches 100 mph from rest in 13.6 seconds,"

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
As you can see the Camaro is not only a better looking coupe, but also cheaper and faster stock for stock..
So when the Accord V6 Coupe is doing 0-60 in 5.6 and the 1/4 in 13.6 and the Altima V6 is doing 0-60 in 5.8 and the 1/4 in 14.6 how is the Camaro V6 faster?
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:34 AM   #73
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So when the Accord V6 Coupe is doing 0-60 in 5.6 and the 1/4 in 13.6
Are you sure that was the quarter? They said it "reached 100mph"...
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:37 AM   #74
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Are you sure that was the quarter? They said it "reached 100mph"...
I've never driven an Accord V6 Coupe but they are fast. They are certainly now competition for my SS Supercharged and I never thought I'd see the day... Which is why I'll be upgrading in like 10 months to a Cobalt SS Turbocharged, 09 Impreza WRX, or fingers crossed a 1SS Camaro (although unlikely at this point and time) The Accord V6's 6spd manual has very short gear ratios and allows for it to accelerate that quickly...

And originally I was planning on getting a V6 Camaro however, performance is an important factor in my decision so I decided to play it safe and just go for an SS... And if I can't get it then I'll buy something else and hope in a few years (I graduate from college in 1 yr) that I can get a SS Camaro eventually.

The Accord and Altima are quicker than many people think. AND yes they will be beating Camaro V6's at the light whether people want to believe it or not. Still I'd never own an Accord or Altima personally. I'm really trying to get away from FWD...
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:58 AM   #75
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Would someone really pick the Accord over 0.3 or maybe 0.4 seconds of difference between the 0-60 times? I don't think that the Camaro being faster was really the argument (which it's probably not according to the mags) and it could end up being a driver's race at that point anyway. It's the total package that will sway most AVERAGE car buyers; and I think it's difficult for some of you to put yourself in those shoes while being enthusiasts.
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:04 AM   #76
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Would someone really pick the Accord over 0.3 or maybe 0.4 seconds of difference between the 0-60 times? I don't think that the Camaro being faster was really the argument (which it's probably not according to the mags) and it could end up being a driver's race at that point anyway. It's the total package that will sway most AVERAGE car buyers; and I think it's difficult for some of you to put yourself in those shoes while being enthusiasts.
No they aren't... And if they do then man do they have a thing or two to learn. Of course the V6 Camaro is going to drive and deliver more of a thrill vs a V6 Accord Coupe or Altima Coupe, RWD>FWD and will always be that way.

However people are underestimating these cars, and if they think they are going to be beating them they are wrong, and for those that think the V6 Camaro is going to be a better performer, may find themselves thinking twice... Yeah throw on a few bolt-ons and you can make up for that half second in 0-60 or in the 1/4... However unless you end up converting to F.I. where you could have a 400hp or 500hp V6 monster, you would end up saving yourself alot of $ if you had just purchased a SS instead, and this is something I've seen happen.

When guys with my car were on the forums this year saying "I just got beat by an Accord last night at a light... wtf?" then we knew something was up, thank God for the Cobalt SS Turbocharged...
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:33 AM   #77
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What did I say about edmunds? lol You guys really can't use Edmund's straight line performance, because they are WAY OFF... They said my 2006 Cobalt SS did 0-60 in like 6.5 seconds and it does 0-60 in like 5.9.... They can't drive for sh*t...

C&D has more accurate 0-60 times. I've even spoken to staff @ C&D and found out how they measure 0-60 they use way more precise equipment, vs Edmunds who has admitted right in half of their articles they use the G-tech hand held units to measure straight line performance and they are way off...

"Taken from C&D's short take on the Nissan Altima Coupe V6... The coupe drives very much like a slightly lighter, stiffer, and smaller Altima sedan. That means it is pretty darned fast in V-6 form, with 0-to-60-mph acceleration happening in 5.8 seconds (0.1 second quicker than the sedan) and a quarter-mile in 14.6 seconds at 97 mph."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ce+page-2.html

also taken from C&D...

"...the Accord coupe is a better machine than the Altima. It’s certainly fast. The sonorous and smooth 3.5-liter V-6 engine makes a solid 268 horsepower and 248 pound-feet of torque, enough to motivate the car from 0 to 60 mph in 5.6 seconds, 0.2 second quicker than the Altima. The Accord reaches 100 mph from rest in 13.6 seconds,"

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test



So when the Accord V6 Coupe is doing 0-60 in 5.6 and the 1/4 in 13.6 and the Altima V6 is doing 0-60 in 5.8 and the 1/4 in 14.6 how is the Camaro V6 faster?
I'm glad at least this one brought about an interesting discussion. Hopefully the camaro V6 gets a faster 0-60 by launch then if not it will be beaten by a Honda Accord with two good drivers in the seat. Edmunds needs to update their times with real world times.. In either case all cars close to the same price range could be considered competition even though they are not all in the same class.

As for looks, we all know which one subjectively looks sexier
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Old 10-30-2008, 03:52 AM   #78
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Ok... Just a few key points here

Faster in a straight line arguement - any one who drags their car doesn't keep theirs stock. Dollar for dollar, you'll get more HP out if the camaro

Next point - for the arguement that we need to attract the younger performance crowd - fine. But if you've been sleeping for the last few years you might not have noticed that drifting has been the latest thing for a while now. Can't do that w/ fwd/awd/4wd.

Whoever is using the reliabilty card is straight ignorant - change your frickin oil on schedule and you won't have a problem with any quality car. Welcome to post 1989, I hope you enjoyed your coma.

And finally, no, the accord is not competition - comparisson fine (which is the title of the thread, and educative Ill thank you for), but not competition. Drag racing fans won't pick either v6 cars. You can't drift in an accord, and someone concerned with reliabily and fuel economy will buy a prius or a camry if they're the average buyer... some other GM car if they're smart (GM has more fuel efficient cars than any other company)

Edit: also, if there are any uncorrected word spellings above, please forgive me as this post really was sent from my iPhone

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Old 10-30-2008, 04:17 AM   #79
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:39 AM   #80
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It's a good thing you don't work for GM. That kind of thinking going back 30 years has contributed to the slow demise of the company.

What does GM offer right now that can go toe to toe with an Accord EX V6 coupe 6 speed manual for 28k???? Tell me????

Keep in mind we are talking the Accord and Altima COUPE V6s, not the sedans or 4 cylinder models.

Neither one of those are very family friendly if you've ever been inside one or seen the trunk.

Again, before you respond, do a little research on the features, specs, and prices of the V6 Accord and Altima coupes, and tell me they don't sit right on the same chesterfield as a Camaro V6.
I have no need to research before I respond. I have been reading, buying, leasing, researching, racing, pampering, breathing and living cars since I was 12 (24 years). I have a veritable plethora of knowledge when it comes to cars, and what cars are direct competitors. Every make, model in existence.

I will say it again. The Honda Accord and Nissan Altima are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro. I will say that again. The Nissan Altima and Honda Accord are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro. The only thing they compete for, are any piece of the market they can grab. Just because I can get an F150, 2 door with a 300 hp V-8 with RWD for the same price as a Camaro (which has 2 doors, 300hp, RWD) doesn't mean they are competitors.

Just because the Altima and Accord have similar 0-60 numbers and pricing doesn't make them competitors.

As for your question about what car competes against the Accord V6 coupe from GM? Last time they had a competitor for the Accord, Altima and Solara coupe was the Monte Carlo and G6 GXP Coupe.

What you need to understand is, there is a difference between competition and direct competition. The H3T Hummer could be considered "competition" for the Ridgline. But they are not direct competition. A person looking to get a Ridgeline will not (majority here...so as to avoid a blanket statement) cross shop an H3T.

The Camaro is an American muscle car. It has an American heritage. It's a car with grunt, it's a car with RWD performance. It was designed to appeal to Americans, young and old, who want to retain the American heritage of automobiles, and experience "muscle" car orgasms. They want to light their rear tires up. They want smoke to billow out the back of their cars if they feel the desire to at any time. They want to whip their back ends out through a chicane, or even take some tread off the Goodyear tires with the occasional donut.

They also want it to be their daily driver, and be able to see their American Camaro muscle car, gleeming, backed into a parking stall, 30 stalls down from the closest car, and take second glances at it as they walk into the store.

They get a feeling of patriotism, a feeling of red, white and blue freedom. The majority of people looking to buy a Camaro, want all of the above, and will NEVER (again....majority), cross shop for an Accord Coupe. The only two things they have in common are a couple of statistics on paper.

The real competition for the Camaro, is...and always will be cars like the Mustang and the Challenger. Even the high end SS2 will be cross shopped by people looking to get into an entry level Corvette.

Don't talk to me about "doing my research". I have enough research in my head, that I am surprised it hasn't exploded yet. If you are really looking to "insult" or attempt to belittle others, you have come to the wrong person my friend.

That said, the Accord Coupe is a decent car. (as is the Altima and defunct Solara).
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:35 AM   #81
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I'm glad at least this one brought about an interesting discussion. Hopefully the camaro V6 gets a faster 0-60 by launch then if not it will be beaten by a Honda Accord with two good drivers in the seat.
Yeah, the differences are so small that it would clearly be a drivers race, and seeing that RWD is much better to launch vs FWD, despite the .3 or so of a second that the Accord may have on the Camaro (we don't know yet) clearly can be made up by a skilled driver in the Camaro V6...

Quote:
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Edmunds needs to update their times with real world times.. In either case all cars close to the same price range could be considered competition even though they are not all in the same class.
They really do... I hate it when they post straight line performance #'s. I would never trust them, especially in my experience. C&D actually uses some of the same methods that the auto makers use when measuring mfr stats, (like lazer chronographs, timers, etc) some of the differences however is that C&D may do a dozen launches and they take the quickest launch. Something like that the C&D staff told me... lol I'm trying to get an internship @ their Ann Arbor, Mi headquarters this summer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
As for looks, we all know which one subjectively looks sexier
oh yes we do.... Camaro = one of the sexiest cars out there right now...
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Old 10-30-2008, 01:26 PM   #82
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I will say it again. The Honda Accord and Nissan Altima are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro. I will say that again. The Nissan Altima and Honda Accord are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro.
But would you agree that it would be wise for Chevy to market the V6 Camaro towards the people who normally buy Accord V6s, and Altima V6s, etc (in addition to the red, white, and blue-blooded people you mentioned later on)?

In my opinion, they'd be really ignoring a fine chunk of potential buyers if they didn't.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:12 PM   #83
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But would you agree that it would be wise for Chevy to market the V6 Camaro towards the people who normally buy Accord V6s, and Altima V6s, etc (in addition to the red, white, and blue-blooded people you mentioned later on)?

In my opinion, they'd be really ignoring a fine chunk of potential buyers if they didn't.
I think that if they made a sporty coupe version of the Malibu with a high output V6, they could market that against the Accord Coupe.

The question you ask is almost tricky (not that you were trying to be tricky). I DO think it would be wise for Chevrolet to market their car against all other cars out there, and try to obtain as much business (sales) as possible.

Do I think they should specifically market the car against the Altima or Accord, say, in a commercial, print, web? Heavens no. If they do take customers away from the Accord or Altima, more power to them. However, I don't believe there would be any ROI if they specifically marketed this particular car against them.

Edit: Now this is just my humble opinion. Please don't take this as fact.
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Old 10-30-2008, 02:44 PM   #84
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I think that if they made a sporty coupe version of the Malibu with a high output V6, they could market that against the Accord Coupe.
The only car GM has to compete against these FWD V6 Coupes is the Pontiac G6 GTP, which I hate to say this but I'd rather own an Accord V6 Coupe, or Altima 3.5S Coupe over that car...

GM clearly needs something.... & price wise I think the Camaro V6 "ON PAPER" could compete with them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beau Tie View Post
"Do I think they should specifically market the car against the Altima or Accord, say, in a commercial, print, web? Heavens no. If they do take customers away from the Accord or Altima, more power to them. However, I don't believe there would be any ROI if they specifically marketed this particular car against them."
You are right about that. And GM definitely won't be marketing the Camaro V6 against cars like the Altima and the Accord. But rather the V6 Challenger, and V6 Mustang, which we all know by now.

But I see where Dragoneye is coming from too. If at possible GM somehow manages to pull some Accord & Altima V6 Coupe buyers over to the dark side then more power for GM...
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:20 PM   #85
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But I see where Dragoneye is coming from too. If at possible GM somehow manages to pull some Accord & Altima V6 Coupe buyers over to the dark side then more power for GM...
Can't argue with that. A sale is a sale.
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