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Old 10-30-2008, 03:20 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by SS4EVER View Post
But I see where Dragoneye is coming from too. If at possible GM somehow manages to pull some Accord & Altima V6 Coupe buyers over to the dark side then more power for GM...
Can't argue with that. A sale is a sale.
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Old 10-30-2008, 04:14 PM   #86
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I have no need to research before I respond. I have been reading, buying, leasing, researching, racing, pampering, breathing and living cars since I was 12 (24 years). I have a veritable plethora of knowledge when it comes to cars, and what cars are direct competitors. Every make, model in existence.

I will say it again. The Honda Accord and Nissan Altima are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro. I will say that again. The Nissan Altima and Honda Accord are NOT direct competitors to the Camaro. The only thing they compete for, are any piece of the market they can grab. Just because I can get an F150, 2 door with a 300 hp V-8 with RWD for the same price as a Camaro (which has 2 doors, 300hp, RWD) doesn't mean they are competitors.

Just because the Altima and Accord have similar 0-60 numbers and pricing doesn't make them competitors.

As for your question about what car competes against the Accord V6 coupe from GM? Last time they had a competitor for the Accord, Altima and Solara coupe was the Monte Carlo and G6 GXP Coupe.

What you need to understand is, there is a difference between competition and direct competition. The H3T Hummer could be considered "competition" for the Ridgline. But they are not direct competition. A person looking to get a Ridgeline will not (majority here...so as to avoid a blanket statement) cross shop an H3T.

The Camaro is an American muscle car. It has an American heritage. It's a car with grunt, it's a car with RWD performance. It was designed to appeal to Americans, young and old, who want to retain the American heritage of automobiles, and experience "muscle" car orgasms. They want to light their rear tires up. They want smoke to billow out the back of their cars if they feel the desire to at any time. They want to whip their back ends out through a chicane, or even take some tread off the Goodyear tires with the occasional donut.

They also want it to be their daily driver, and be able to see their American Camaro muscle car, gleeming, backed into a parking stall, 30 stalls down from the closest car, and take second glances at it as they walk into the store.

They get a feeling of patriotism, a feeling of red, white and blue freedom. The majority of people looking to buy a Camaro, want all of the above, and will NEVER (again....majority), cross shop for an Accord Coupe. The only two things they have in common are a couple of statistics on paper.

The real competition for the Camaro, is...and always will be cars like the Mustang and the Challenger. Even the high end SS2 will be cross shopped by people looking to get into an entry level Corvette.

Don't talk to me about "doing my research". I have enough research in my head, that I am surprised it hasn't exploded yet. If you are really looking to "insult" or attempt to belittle others, you have come to the wrong person my friend.

That said, the Accord Coupe is a decent car. (as is the Altima and defunct Solara).
Besides the fact the Camaro is RWD and the Accord is FWD, there is nothing to make them near as drastically different as you try to describe. An F150???? Please.

Ask Scott. Go ahead, ask him..... he will tell you GM is going to try really hard to get the notion that the Camaro is an American "muscle car" out of people's heads. He's already alluded to that. The SS is there simply for us passionate enthusiasts, historical purposes, and "bragging rights" over any Mustang and Challenger owner. But the truth of the matter is GM could put any other badge on the car, and change the front and rear end design so it doesn't look like a Camaro, remove the SS trim option completely, and the LT would be put up against an Accord V6 coupe and Altima V6 coupe in every, single review and comparison. In fact,

http://www.camaro5.com/goods/camaroorderingworkbook.pdf

scroll down to page 12. GM already understands the fundamental difference in the customer focus of the LT and SS.

Trust me, I understand everything you are saying. Years ago, that was the mentality of most of us here on this forum, and most of the people working for GM. There was no way any Camaro, 4 cylinder, V6, or V8 would ever be compared to anything made by a Japanese company.

But this is 2008, not 1988. Times have changed, and if you haven't noticed, so has GM's market share, finacial status, and the way the global automotive market competes. For GM to be successfull, the V6 Camaro must attract people never even considered years ago. For that, it must be competitive to what else is out there in the market. The Monte Carlo was a joke compared to the Accord. The G6 can't be had with a stick, and there isn't a Malibu coupe so the focus for the Camaro V6 is what it's never been before: a modern, sophisticated touring coupe.
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Old 10-30-2008, 07:48 PM   #87
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2008 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 - Specs

PRICE AS TESTED: $31,145 (base price: $28,945)

I think this is more of a SS competitor. MSRP is only about $1K more. I would definitely not put this car in the same price range as a LS with almost $7K lower base.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:03 PM   #88
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2008 Honda Accord Coupe EX-L V-6 - Specs

PRICE AS TESTED: $31,145 (base price: $28,945)

I think this is more of a SS competitor. MSRP is only about $1K more. I would definitely not put this car in the same price range as a LS with almost $7K lower base.

That price is with navigation. Without nav it's 28k.
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Old 10-30-2008, 09:34 PM   #89
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I was comparing the base prices. $28,945 for the Accord and $22,245 for the Camaro. That's $6,700 more. Maybe we should compare the base 4 cylinder Accord to the 6 cylinder Camaro. Accord LX-S Coupe at $21,860 seems closer to $22,245. Someone find the 0-60 and 1/4 on that monster.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:23 PM   #90
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Accord LX-S Coupe at $21,860 seems closer to $22,245. Someone find the 0-60 and 1/4 on that monster.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:05 AM   #91
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It would be a lot better if people who quote BASE prices actually knew what comes in a Honda. You need to 2LT, then "RS" the Camaro at minimum and add a sunroof and others to get close to the V6 standard equipment on the 09 Accord COUPE. The coupe does not share one body panel with the sedan. Price on paper is not the only property a sophisticated buyer is looking for. You still will not get dual zone A/C , Home link, keyless remote windows and more on the Chevy. And the Honda will get you 10% better mileage. ADDS UP AT 4.00 A GALLON.

It appears those who at the ripe old age of 36 who are so closed minded that
their "EXPERT" view is the only right one are not one of the wiser more educated examples of "current" consumer that GM is aiming this car at.

My son has a "Bow TIE " tattooed on his forearm, but his mind is open enough to realize that if CHEVOLET does not attract current and future buyers with this car it WILL go the same way the 05 GTO went and then GM in less than a decade will go the same way as Chrysler. (BTW his 24 Y/O lady says she thinks the 2010 looks " too for old guys" compared to the Honda.

Wait till the YOU TUBE reports come in with some 25 year old who knows how to launch his FWD V6 and speed shifting the close ratio leaves some old 45 year old churning smoke with his BB Camaro (extra cost shifter) who could not hook up.

Have a nice day!
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:27 AM   #92
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fwiw.....


You don't need RS to get the sunroof, and you get homelink on the 2LT...
And I'm not sure where you get the mileage difference...18/27 (Camaro) v 19/28 (Accord V6)...that's maybe 4%.

The Camaro also gets a 6-speed auto where the Honda is only equipped with a 5-speed. And I would be willing to bet big money that the Camaro feels 2x as "sporty" when driving than the Honda.

Then there's the matter of price: $26,580 for the 2LT Camaro v. $28,805 for the Honda V6. Nearly identical in terms of options. If there was direct cross-shopping, I wonder how many people would be willing to sacrifice dual-zone climate control and keyless windows for $2,000 savings.
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Old 10-31-2008, 12:51 AM   #93
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You don't need RS to get the sunroof, and you get homelink on the 2LT...
And I'm not sure where you get the mileage difference...18/27 (Camaro) v 19/28 (Accord V6)...that's maybe 4%.

The Camaro also gets a 6-speed auto where the Honda is only equipped with a 5-speed. And I would be willing to bet big money that the Camaro feels 2x as "sporty" when driving than the Honda.

Then there's the matter of price: $26,580 for the 2LT Camaro v. $28,805 for the Honda V6. Nearly identical in terms of options. If there was direct cross-shopping, I wonder how many people would be willing to sacrifice dual-zone climate control and keyless windows for $2,000 savings.
Well as repeated here so often the CAMARO is full MSRP or more with dealer "add ons " (ADD THE SUNROOF too, stock with leather on the Honda )
while a new Honda can be had on Ebay any week for $26,000. Does "Sporty' mean heavy?? AS IN 300LBS HEAVIER?
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Old 10-31-2008, 01:06 AM   #94
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Well as repeated here so often the CAMARO is full MSRP or more with dealer "add ons " (ADD THE SUNROOF too, stock with leather on the Honda )
while a new Honda can be had on Ebay any week for $26,000. Does "Sporty' mean heavy?? AS IN 300LBS HEAVIER?
Dealer "add-ons" are traps for any fools who don't know any better or those who are too impatient to walk down the street to another dealer. Not fair or accurate to throw that in the mix, neither is Ebay, because there are no Camaros in existence to even be on Ebay...MSRP is the only fair scale for everybody.

Sunroof, okay -- I could give you that, but do 100% of buyers WANT a sunroof? It's a choice thing, imo, as I certainly don't. But Honda stuffs it down your throat, whereas Chevy gives you a choice (that, when added -- STILL keeps the car's price lower than the Accord: it's only a $900 option)

"Sporty" as in superior handling, and FEEL. Weight, though still a valid question, seems to become a threshold issue. How much more heavy does a car have to be before one can actually FEEL it? But don't take my word -- go read a few of the Reviews, and speak with just a few of the disciples. The V6 car is a most impressive handler -- worthy of much more than a "base-model" designation. None of the magazines made any mention of the car feeling heavy...none of them. And one magazine went so far as to say the Camaro performed like it was the American-version of the Infiniti G37. When I said that, I was simply reaffirming my faith that this car will deliver in leaps and bounds above what the cynics expect from it.
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Old 10-31-2008, 02:11 AM   #95
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Well there sure has been a lot of discussion for a subject that the 2nd post dismissed!

How times change ...use to be you bought your Chevy for a 100 bucks over invoice and Honda sold at MSRP only. Now they take $3000 off and free NAVI while GM wants MSRP plus Extras .

Don't forget to vote !!!!!! GM needs 10 billion .
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Old 10-31-2008, 05:21 AM   #96
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Besides the fact the Camaro is RWD and the Accord is FWD, there is nothing to make them near as drastically different as you try to describe. An F150???? Please.

Ask Scott. Go ahead, ask him..... he will tell you GM is going to try really hard to get the notion that the Camaro is an American "muscle car" out of people's heads. He's already alluded to that. The SS is there simply for us passionate enthusiasts, historical purposes, and "bragging rights" over any Mustang and Challenger owner. But the truth of the matter is GM could put any other badge on the car, and change the front and rear end design so it doesn't look like a Camaro, remove the SS trim option completely, and the LT would be put up against an Accord V6 coupe and Altima V6 coupe in every, single review and comparison. In fact,

http://www.camaro5.com/goods/camaroorderingworkbook.pdf

scroll down to page 12. GM already understands the fundamental difference in the customer focus of the LT and SS.

Trust me, I understand everything you are saying. Years ago, that was the mentality of most of us here on this forum, and most of the people working for GM. There was no way any Camaro, 4 cylinder, V6, or V8 would ever be compared to anything made by a Japanese company.

But this is 2008, not 1988. Times have changed, and if you haven't noticed, so has GM's market share, finacial status, and the way the global automotive market competes. For GM to be successfull, the V6 Camaro must attract people never even considered years ago. For that, it must be competitive to what else is out there in the market. The Monte Carlo was a joke compared to the Accord. The G6 can't be had with a stick, and there isn't a Malibu coupe so the focus for the Camaro V6 is what it's never been before: a modern, sophisticated touring coupe.
Well, your opinion is duly noted

BTW, I don't know who "Scott" is, as I have not been here very long (look at my registration date), nor do I care who Scott is. Nobody else makes my opinions for me or for you.

Fact remains, Chevrolet (GM) IS making this car out to be a "muscle car", no matter what GM or anyone else might convey to you. They intentionally came out with a more reliable, more sophisticated Camaro this generation. However, that doesn't change the fact they they gave it a muscle car "retro" design from the original 69 Camaro. It doesn't change the fact that they gave it a retro, muscle car interior. Or the fact that they have the car as RWD, with 300 and 400+ hp options respectfully. The car looks like a muscle car, the cars engine performance is of a muscle car, the interior is of the likeness of a muscle car, and fans of the muscle car are buying this car. Magazines, forums and news are all comparing the 3 muscle cars again (Mustang, Camaro and Challenger).

The difference this time around? Reliability, sophistication and handling is actually a part of this muscle car.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck......

If the car steals sales from other auto manufacturers, including Honda, good for GM. Though GM isn't marketing this car against an Accord Coupe.

But, for the record, I will eat crow the day I see GM put an Accord vs. Camaro commercial, ad, reliability comparison or any other car comparison that we have discussed (Altima, Accord).

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Well there sure has been a lot of discussion for a subject that the 2nd post dismissed!
Actually, it wasn't dismissed. Many others have agreed with me as well. Are you just doing some "selective" reading, or only reading what appeals to you? Are you the same guy who keeps sending me Private Messages that don't make any sense? If so, please stop.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:02 AM   #97
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Well, your opinion is duly noted

BTW, I don't know who "Scott" is, as I have not been here very long (look at my registration date), nor do I care who Scott is. Nobody else makes my opinions for me or for you.

Fact remains, Chevrolet (GM) IS making this car out to be a "muscle car", no matter what GM or anyone else might convey to you. They intentionally came out with a more reliable, more sophisticated Camaro this generation. However, that doesn't change the fact they they gave it a muscle car "retro" design from the original 69 Camaro. It doesn't change the fact that they gave it a retro, muscle car interior. Or the fact that they have the car as RWD, with 300 and 400+ hp options respectfully. The car looks like a muscle car, the cars engine performance is of a muscle car, the interior is of the likeness of a muscle car, and fans of the muscle car are buying this car. Magazines, forums and news are all comparing the 3 muscle cars again (Mustang, Camaro and Challenger).

The difference this time around? Reliability, sophistication and handling is actually a part of this muscle car.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck......

If the car steals sales from other auto manufacturers, including Honda, good for GM. Though GM isn't marketing this car against an Accord Coupe.

But, for the record, I will eat crow the day I see GM put an Accord vs. Camaro commercial, ad, reliability comparison or any other car comparison that we have discussed (Altima, Accord).



Actually, it wasn't dismissed. Many others have agreed with me as well. Are you just doing some "selective" reading, or only reading what appeals to you? Are you the same guy who keeps sending me Private Messages that don't make any sense? If so, please stop.
Most of what you say I agree, but you really need to find out who Scott is... You will then respect what his opinion is.

Yes Camaro is designed to be a Modern day Muscle Car with retro styling cues.
The defininion of Muscle Car in my opinion has changed. The origonal Muscle cars were the Chevelles, GTO's, 442s, Torinos, Roadrunners etc, all mid sized cars for their time, with large engines made for drag racing. The Camaro, Mustang, Barracuda, etc were an alternative to the Sports Car. A sporty car for a young Single person or a small family, Husband, Wife and maybe one or two small children... Good handling cars, with plenty of power to do what it was designed for. Now specialty car dealerships took the Camaro and made it into a drag car also. and Chevy helped by supplying the COPO models. But make no mistake the Camaro was first designed to just be a good handling 4 seat sporty car. Market demand later made it into a Muscle car.

I believe that a Muscle car today incorporates not only the aspects of a high powered engine, but a sophisticated chassis. Not only will it go fast it will handle well. The New Camaro is Both a Sporty car and a Muscle Car. The V6 is the sporty model, easily being more powerful and better handling than most (but definately not all) the first through 4th gen Camaros. The SS is the Muscel Car High power and handling to match.

So comparing with an Accord or Altima, is up to the individual looking for a car that will perfom in the way they want. people have different wants and needs. I knew a guy the Compared a Honda Prelude to a Monte Carlo back in the 90's. and he bought the Honda, and his reason was the Honda handled better... I said why didn't you compare the Prelude to the Camaro, they are in the same market segment, not the Monte Carlo... he just wouldn't answer me... He wanted an excuse to buy the Honda so he compared it to an American car that he knew wouldn't measure up to the aspects he was wanting... People and magazines will do that sometimes to make the car they want to win look better....

For all Newbies....Again I urge you to find out more about Scott. He is a person that has been in on the development of the Camaro from day one... and has been the "Go To Guy" for any questions. Many have been answered already if you want to search a little.
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Old 10-31-2008, 06:53 AM   #98
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Most of what you say I agree, but you really need to find out who Scott is... You will then respect what his opinion is.

Yes Camaro is designed to be a Modern day Muscle Car with retro styling cues.
The defininion of Muscle Car in my opinion has changed. The origonal Muscle cars were the Chevelles, GTO's, 442s, Torinos, Roadrunners etc, all mid sized cars for their time, with large engines made for drag racing. The Camaro, Mustang, Barracuda, etc were an alternative to the Sports Car. A sporty car for a young Single person or a small family, Husband, Wife and maybe one or two small children... Good handling cars, with plenty of power to do what it was designed for. Now specialty car dealerships took the Camaro and made it into a drag car also. and Chevy helped by supplying the COPO models. But make no mistake the Camaro was first designed to just be a good handling 4 seat sporty car. Market demand later made it into a Muscle car.

I believe that a Muscle car today incorporates not only the aspects of a high powered engine, but a sophisticated chassis. Not only will it go fast it will handle well. The New Camaro is Both a Sporty car and a Muscle Car. The V6 is the sporty model, easily being more powerful and better handling than most (but definately not all) the first through 4th gen Camaros. The SS is the Muscel Car High power and handling to match.

So comparing with an Accord or Altima, is up to the individual looking for a car that will perfom in the way they want. people have different wants and needs. I knew a guy the Compared a Honda Prelude to a Monte Carlo back in the 90's. and he bought the Honda, and his reason was the Honda handled better... I said why didn't you compare the Prelude to the Camaro, they are in the same market segment, not the Monte Carlo... he just wouldn't answer me... He wanted an excuse to buy the Honda so he compared it to an American car that he knew wouldn't measure up to the aspects he was wanting... People and magazines will do that sometimes to make the car they want to win look better....

For all Newbies....Again I urge you to find out more about Scott. He is a person that has been in on the development of the Camaro from day one... and has been the "Go To Guy" for any questions. Many have been answered already if you want to search a little.
Thanks for your insight, and thank you for taking the time to respond. As for "Scott", I really wouldn't care if Scott was "Bob Lutz". It still has no bearing on my opinion, feelings, or thoughts on the competitive nature of the 5th generation Camaro. No doubt that "Scott's" knowledge of the Camaro exceeds my knowledge a billion to one. If "Scott" is on the Camaro team, well then, job well done on the new Camaro. One of the best cars to come out of GM in the most recent years (next to the CTS, Malibu, Enclave, C6, and now a host of others).

For the record, I am new to this particular forum (because I am getting a new Camaro), but I am not a "newb" to cars, nor the Camaro specifically. So I don't have any "questions" or "answers" that I need to "search" for.

I can't wait or the Camaro vs. Accord vs. Altima commercials!





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