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5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions General 5th generation Camaro topics not covered by other subforums.

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Old 10-27-2008, 03:13 PM   #1
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HP vs Torque

I know a lot of speculation and discussion is going on about the performance validity of the V6 Camaro. The 300hp number continually gets thrown around especially compared to the V8 Mustang GT (as he spits on the ground). And while I love solid horsepower numbers like any one, I think at some point people stopped paying attention to the importance of torque.

Torque is acceleration. Although they have the same hp the GT has 320ft.lbs of torque versus the 273ft.lbs of the V6 Camaro. I believe it will be a much better handling rode car with the IRS and no one can really know until the thing hits the road. But do we honestly feel it is going to run door to door with the slightly lighter, correct me on that if I’m wrong, and torqier GT just because it has the same hp? Talk amongst yourselves?
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:18 PM   #2
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The torque factor has been discussed over and over. It's been beaten to death.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:20 PM   #3
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True, the V6 Camaro will get smoked by the GT in a drag race (well maybe not smoked, but it will be a decisive victory).The V6 would probably even have to have more torque than the GT to compensate for the extra weight. However, the V6 for a lot of people is more of a compromise between performance and luxury, and features like the IRS that the GT doesn't have make it so. Camaro fans who want the performance will go for the 1SS, which smokes the GT like there's no tommorrow.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:48 PM   #4
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SS >>>>> GT

our V6 >>>>>> their V6.


thats all you need to know.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
SS >>>>> GT

our V6 >>>>>> their V6.


thats all you need to know.
I agree totally. I wish people would focus on that instead of taking a step up to the next level. I just hadn't seen that in the threads I've read. Head to head, they're all dead.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:00 PM   #6
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Im curious how the "area under the curve" affects performance, both when looking at the horsepower curve and torque curve. What does peak horsepower really mean if its only high at that point, obviously a flatter torque curve means you have more torque and power at rpm's other then at the peak number. Say one engine you put in a car makes 425hp at 6k but only 200hp at 3k. Another engine may only have 380hp peak at 5.5k but has 320 even at 3k because of a flat torque curve. Would'nt the engine with less peak power be faster? since it has more energy available below the usable curve.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDBiker220 View Post
Im curious how the "area under the curve" affects performance, both when looking at the horsepower curve and torque curve. What does peak horsepower really mean if its only high at that point, obviously a flatter torque curve means you have more torque and power at rpm's other then at the peak number. Say one engine you put in a car makes 425hp at 6k but only 200hp at 3k. Another engine may only have 380hp peak at 5.5k but has 320 even at 3k because of a flat torque curve. Would'nt the engine with less peak power be faster? since it has more energy available below the usable curve.

that is the reason you have to look at useable torque.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:31 PM   #8
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TORQUE - Is yummy. Instant adrenaline rush. Amusement unlimited. A couple of mpg's less - no brainer.

Ask G8 GT owners. Not many G8 V6's out there. Now GM says 75 or 80% V6 Camaros at first? Do it again, whatever.

Better V6, but mileage between V6 and V8 models is very close. Performance thrill is not very close.

They killed the torque gauge to push the lower torque V6.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:36 PM   #9
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You're right on target to point out the torque deficit of the Camaro LS when compared to a Mustang GT. There's just no way that a Mustang GT will fall victim to a V6 Camaro beating without some modification. With the help of bolt-ons and a tune, I wouldn't doubt that a Camaro will win at the track, though. That LLT motor is one mod-responsive beast.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:31 PM   #10
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*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:41 PM   #11
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Glad a post was made regarding this. Yeah it's being beaten like a dead horse, but people need to realize that "HP" isn't the only factor in deciding performance....
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
Could I interest you in a Peterbilt?
You know torque>>rpm hp>>rpm poor rpm.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:27 AM   #13
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I agree with your Bob Joe Frank equation in principal. But since, as you stated, Bob and Joe have the same power and work (it's not really torque but a good analogy) output when you adjust for a common denominator frank is faster because he exerts twice as much "torque" over the same time period. And while Joe and Bob would move even multiples of 100lbs the same distance in the same time, assuming they both consume equal amounts of beer while working that is, Bob would always pull ahead until the end. My point being if you get to the same peak hp with more torque won't you just watch the other guy maintain the same position in your rearview mirror? And it won't just accelerate better at a specific area of the torque curve. It's going to accelerate faster at any point along the rpm range it has more torque.

Last edited by stratman; 10-28-2008 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #14
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Okay, trying to learn here, Lets say I get the V6.

Do most mods to horsepower increase your torque, or are their specific modifications out there that i would want to do. For example, i know that putting better exhaust on my car will let it breath better, and inturn increase hp. I would assume that this would get me a few torque points as well, but not many (i mean, it is a V6). Is there a modification out there that will really give me some added torque. Also, will that modification also bring down the reliability of my ride, i mean i want power, but not at the sacrifice of being in the shop all the time. Thanx.
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman View Post
It's going to accelerate faster at any point along the rpm range it has more torque.
Yup, thats why I'd rather have torque than revs -more area under the curve. But if they were both using a CVT it would be dead even because each would operate at its peak power. Most cars don't do this so torque is more advantageous for nearly all applications.
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Old 10-28-2008, 09:51 AM   #16
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Stratman, I forgot: if you compare the same time period, Bob would lift 100 lbs 10 ft/ min while Joe would lift 50 lbs 20 ft.
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Okay, trying to learn here, Lets say I get the V6.

Do most mods to horsepower increase your torque, or are their specific modifications out there that i would want to do. For example, i know that putting better exhaust on my car will let it breath better, and inturn increase hp. I would assume that this would get me a few torque points as well, but not many (i mean, it is a V6). Is there a modification out there that will really give me some added torque. Also, will that modification also bring down the reliability of my ride, i mean i want power, but not at the sacrifice of being in the shop all the time. Thanx.
There are 2 and only 2 ways to increase power. Increase torque, increase revs. Changing fluids and using a less restrictive exhaust will reduce your losses. That will cause an increase in fuel economy, as well as more power and more torque. Increasing the revs is rarely much use unless you are racing. So basically, everything you do to increase power will be done by increasing torque. Everything from advancing the timing to stroking out the engine to adding forced induction. It all increases torque, and subsequently power.

Since I like my analogy so much. A supercharger is like giving Bob steriods so that he can lift 250 lbs at a time. Removing a rev limiter allows Bob to lift the weight in 1:50 min instead of 2 min.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:20 AM   #17
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Stratman, I forgot: if you compare the same time period, Bob would lift 100 lbs 10 ft/ min while Joe would lift 50 lbs 20 ft.

Yeah that's what I was saying about even multiples of 100lbs. I guess this is why it isn't a "great" analogy. Assuming the constant goal is to move any given wait a constant distance of 20ft., they both do the same amount of work in different ways. One guy makes two 20ft trips with a 50lb bag each time while one guy carries 2 50lb bags at once but at half the pace. It still takes Joe 2 min to move 100lbs. Carry twice the load or travel twice the distance. And this has officially turned into one of my old engineering exam questions.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:56 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Yeah that's what I was saying about even multiples of 100lbs. I guess this is why it isn't a "great" analogy. Assuming the constant goal is to move any given wait a constant distance of 20ft., they both do the same amount of work in different ways. One guy makes two 20ft trips with a 50lb bag each time while one guy carries 2 50lb bags at once but at half the pace. It still takes Joe 2 min to move 100lbs. Carry twice the load or travel twice the distance. And this has officially turned into one of my old engineering exam questions.
Strong and slow vs weak and fast.
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:58 AM   #19
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That's a nice write-up DG' You beat me to it
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:08 AM   #20
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Horsepower is how fast you hit it. Torque is how far you take it after the collision.

It's not scientific, but it works.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:49 PM   #21
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I think the Bob Joe Frank thing has taken us off topic. Lets get back to the main issue. All things being equal (i.e. aerodynamics, weight of car, gear ratio, trans, driver), a car with a motor making 300hp and 320ft.lbs of torque will beat a car with a motor making 300hp and 273ft.lbs of torque in a straight line or through curves (assuming like suspensions also). It all gets back to talking about the engine. As far as strong and slow versus weak and fast what would likely happen if the stronger Bob only carried 50lbs or Joe carried 100lbs. The output of the motor doesn't change but the result based on what it's moving will.
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:11 PM   #22
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I just skimmed over the thread. Here is my take on it. When I had a 4200 stall and 4.10s in my V6 it didn't matter how much less torque I had then a Mustang GT. I had the gear ratio advantage to cover up the low end torque disadvantage. I never saw anything below 4200 from the line and then anything lower then 5000 in 2nd and 3rd. I remember racing one GT. Don't know the mods. I beat him to the 1/8th even though his mph showed 7 more. Then at the end he passed me like I was standing still at much higher mph although my final et was only a few tenths worse. I think that was during my low 14s runs. Best documented run I had was 14.3.

This A6 is geared much higher in 1st then the previous A4. It's almost like you have 4.10s off the line. This will make up for the lack of low end torque. Car has the hp up top to keep up. Does it really matter what torque is over lets say 5k? Remember this engine spins all the way up to 7k. The shifts are close so the shift extensions might keep this car above 5k all the way down the track. I know this is not a performance model, but this engine is really advanced. Just like the previous 3.8 crossed over into mustang GT territory, this 3.6 crosses over into the current mustang GT territory. Last time all I needed was gear/stall to match the 210hp/300ft-lbs GT with my 200hp/225ft-lbs 3.8. This is a similar situation where hp is same but torque is lacking. A6 already provides the high gear form the factory to get this going off the line. If anything a converter will definitely put this in mid 13s. I went from 15.7 to 15.1 by doing a 3.42 to 4.10 swap. Then from 15.1 to 14.9 by doing the intake. Then from 14.9 to 14.3 by doing the 4200 stall. And that's all with 200hp. As you all are aware the mods get magnified with more powerful engines. So to summarize I don't worry about the low torque so much. No one races at 1-2k rpm.
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:39 PM   #23
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No one races at 1-2k rpm but what car has the meat of their torque band down there either. Upping your rear gear effectively increased the torque it put to the road because you increased the distance over which the force from the drive shaft was applied to the rear axle. All you needed was a gear and a stall but you needed that gear and that stall to increase your net torque and keep you in the power band. Numbers from the fly and numbers at the wheels are two separate discussions. If they are making it up on the rear end, that is of course worth noting.
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:52 PM   #24
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^^ like he said no one races at LOW RPM
The main thing to compare a High TQ motor to a Low TQ is Rev range while racing .
Lets use drag racing , in my car I only use 5.5k-7.2k RPM (LESS than 2k RPM range) . The car with the most HP in that range will win .

So car #1 with LESS TQ(280) could beat a car #2 with MORE TQ(320) at the same (300HP ,weight, gear ....) , IF car #1 has a more avarage HP through the rev range of drag racing

The TQ'er car #2 would be way more fun the drive day to day .

But the main reason the GT should win is weight diff .
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:02 PM   #25
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I do agree the torque range or as someone else put it "useable torque" is the most important. That gets to final drive ratio. That extra torque does you no good if it's in the wrong area of the curve for what your needs are.
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