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Old 10-27-2008, 03:13 PM   #1
stratman
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HP vs Torque

I know a lot of speculation and discussion is going on about the performance validity of the V6 Camaro. The 300hp number continually gets thrown around especially compared to the V8 Mustang GT (as he spits on the ground). And while I love solid horsepower numbers like any one, I think at some point people stopped paying attention to the importance of torque.

Torque is acceleration. Although they have the same hp the GT has 320ft.lbs of torque versus the 273ft.lbs of the V6 Camaro. I believe it will be a much better handling rode car with the IRS and no one can really know until the thing hits the road. But do we honestly feel it is going to run door to door with the slightly lighter, correct me on that if I’m wrong, and torqier GT just because it has the same hp? Talk amongst yourselves?
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:18 PM   #2
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The torque factor has been discussed over and over. It's been beaten to death.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:20 PM   #3
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True, the V6 Camaro will get smoked by the GT in a drag race (well maybe not smoked, but it will be a decisive victory).The V6 would probably even have to have more torque than the GT to compensate for the extra weight. However, the V6 for a lot of people is more of a compromise between performance and luxury, and features like the IRS that the GT doesn't have make it so. Camaro fans who want the performance will go for the 1SS, which smokes the GT like there's no tommorrow.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:48 PM   #4
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SS >>>>> GT

our V6 >>>>>> their V6.


thats all you need to know.
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Old 10-27-2008, 03:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Congoman775 View Post
SS >>>>> GT

our V6 >>>>>> their V6.


thats all you need to know.
I agree totally. I wish people would focus on that instead of taking a step up to the next level. I just hadn't seen that in the threads I've read. Head to head, they're all dead.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:00 PM   #6
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Im curious how the "area under the curve" affects performance, both when looking at the horsepower curve and torque curve. What does peak horsepower really mean if its only high at that point, obviously a flatter torque curve means you have more torque and power at rpm's other then at the peak number. Say one engine you put in a car makes 425hp at 6k but only 200hp at 3k. Another engine may only have 380hp peak at 5.5k but has 320 even at 3k because of a flat torque curve. Would'nt the engine with less peak power be faster? since it has more energy available below the usable curve.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDBiker220 View Post
Im curious how the "area under the curve" affects performance, both when looking at the horsepower curve and torque curve. What does peak horsepower really mean if its only high at that point, obviously a flatter torque curve means you have more torque and power at rpm's other then at the peak number. Say one engine you put in a car makes 425hp at 6k but only 200hp at 3k. Another engine may only have 380hp peak at 5.5k but has 320 even at 3k because of a flat torque curve. Would'nt the engine with less peak power be faster? since it has more energy available below the usable curve.

that is the reason you have to look at useable torque.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:31 PM   #8
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TORQUE - Is yummy. Instant adrenaline rush. Amusement unlimited. A couple of mpg's less - no brainer.

Ask G8 GT owners. Not many G8 V6's out there. Now GM says 75 or 80% V6 Camaros at first? Do it again, whatever.

Better V6, but mileage between V6 and V8 models is very close. Performance thrill is not very close.

They killed the torque gauge to push the lower torque V6.
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Old 10-27-2008, 04:36 PM   #9
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You're right on target to point out the torque deficit of the Camaro LS when compared to a Mustang GT. There's just no way that a Mustang GT will fall victim to a V6 Camaro beating without some modification. With the help of bolt-ons and a tune, I wouldn't doubt that a Camaro will win at the track, though. That LLT motor is one mod-responsive beast.
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Old 10-27-2008, 07:31 PM   #10
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*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:41 PM   #11
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Glad a post was made regarding this. Yeah it's being beaten like a dead horse, but people need to realize that "HP" isn't the only factor in deciding performance....
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
*Warning: Technical Post*

In basic terms, torque is a force at a distance (pounds are force, feet are distance, lbs x ft = torque). So, the more force you apply the faster you accelerate (Acceleration=Force/mass). Alternatively, when expresed linearly the units of torque are equivelent to lifting 1 lb of weight 1 foot off the ground.

Horsepower is torque/time. So, the faster you can exert the same torque the more power you have. In the case of cars, speed is revolutions per minute (rpm's). Hp=(torque*revolutions)/(minutes*5252), or more simply Hp=torque*rpm/5252. Transmissions are based on this equation. They trade revolutions for more torque. But the power remains the same (minus frictional losses).

Now, lets get back to torque vs hp. Before we begin, these numbers are purely for illustrative purposes, I basically made them up as I went. Lets say you were repairing your roof. You've got 3 buddies to help you bring supplies up to the roof 20 ft off the ground. Bob can bring up loads of 100 lbs in about 2 minutes. Joe is weaker, but quick. He can only manage 50 lbs at a time but he does it twice as fast a Bob. Your third buddy is Frank. Like Bob he can bring up 100 lbs at a time but like Joe he does it in only 1 minute.

. Bob . . . . . . . . Joe . . . . . . . . Frank
100lb*20ft/2min . 50lb*20ft/1min . 100lb*20ft/1min
0.1904 hp. . . . .0.1904 hp. . . . .0.3808 hp

So, Bob and Joe are equally powerful but they are half as powerful as Frank. Another way to look at it is given the same power you can be strong and slow or weak and fast. Never both. To get both, you need more power. You need a Frank.

this is all well and good for comparing 1 particular hp value against another and would lead one to believe that 300 hp is the same no matter what. That is both correct and wrong at the same time. More torque gives you more power at lower speeds. Which means that when cruising down the highway at 1500 rpm the 4.6L v8 in the mustang would give much better acceleration than the 3.6L V6 from the Camaro, if they were in the same car and the same transmission. Since the mustang is lighter than the Camaro it is no contest. The two will only have similar performance when they are both at their peak RPM.

Hp vs torque, I take hp. RPM vs hp, I take hp. Torque vs RPM, I take torque.
Could I interest you in a Peterbilt?
You know torque>>rpm hp>>rpm poor rpm.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:27 AM   #13
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I agree with your Bob Joe Frank equation in principal. But since, as you stated, Bob and Joe have the same power and work (it's not really torque but a good analogy) output when you adjust for a common denominator frank is faster because he exerts twice as much "torque" over the same time period. And while Joe and Bob would move even multiples of 100lbs the same distance in the same time, assuming they both consume equal amounts of beer while working that is, Bob would always pull ahead until the end. My point being if you get to the same peak hp with more torque won't you just watch the other guy maintain the same position in your rearview mirror? And it won't just accelerate better at a specific area of the torque curve. It's going to accelerate faster at any point along the rpm range it has more torque.

Last edited by stratman; 10-28-2008 at 08:58 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 08:48 AM   #14
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Okay, trying to learn here, Lets say I get the V6.

Do most mods to horsepower increase your torque, or are their specific modifications out there that i would want to do. For example, i know that putting better exhaust on my car will let it breath better, and inturn increase hp. I would assume that this would get me a few torque points as well, but not many (i mean, it is a V6). Is there a modification out there that will really give me some added torque. Also, will that modification also bring down the reliability of my ride, i mean i want power, but not at the sacrifice of being in the shop all the time. Thanx.
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