Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack

Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack Discuss issues related to wheels and tires

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 06-23-2010, 12:48 AM   #1
ablackburn99
 
ablackburn99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 CAMARO 2SS/RS LS3 VR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Baldwin)
Posts: 74
WHEELS CHANGE PERFORMANCE

Anyone have lighter or smaller (heavier/larger) wheels that noticed a differance in acc./braking/handling/ride comfort/mpg/track time/dyno?

If so, what size/weight/brand?
ablackburn99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 01:16 AM   #2
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
I went from the factory 20's to 3-piece forged 19's which combined with the tires saved 36 lbs total for all 4 wheels. Acceleration, braking, handling and ride all improved. MPG didn't seem to change and I haven't been on the track yet. I didn't get a dyno before doing all my mods so I don't have a baseline to refer to but I'm planning on a dyno run in a few weeks.

The rims I have are Nutek 505's (NineBall on the forum is a dealer) in a 19 x 9.5 all the way around and they weigh 25 lbs each. Tires are Hankook Ventus V12 Evos and they weigh 29 lbs each.

Compare the weight of each of these at 54 lbs versus the factory front 20 x 8's which weigh (if I remember right) about 62 lbs and the factory rear 20 x 9's which weigh 67 lbs. Those weights are with tires.

The car has less understeer and feels much more balanced now.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 02:04 AM   #3
ablackburn99
 
ablackburn99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 CAMARO 2SS/RS LS3 VR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Baldwin)
Posts: 74
What did you pay for the wheels?

Any pics?
ablackburn99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 07:34 AM   #4
seddon

 
seddon's Avatar
 
Drives: RED JEWEL 2SS
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 984
I went with D2 Forged 3 piece 22x9 and 22x11 didn't really a loss in power but a big difference in grip and traction the wider wheels and tires are planted on the floor. If you worried about 30-40 pounds get rid of the stock exhaust and go aftermarket will save some weight. I personally wouldn't worry about a few pounds.
__________________
Elite Design Concepts NY5THGENPedderized SS
seddon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 08:28 AM   #5
Nine Ball



 
Nine Ball's Avatar
 
Drives: 1969 & 2011 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,842
Seddon, rotating mass is far worse than static mass though. If you lighten your wheels, brake rotors, driveshaft, flywheel, etc... you will certainly gain performance. Also, moment of inertia comes into play when going with larger diameter wheels. Moment of Inertia. Some of these guys putting heavy cast 22s on their Camaros that are meant for SUV's are really killing performance.
__________________

www.DV8Motoring.com
Forged Wheels & Customs
PM's disabled, please email Tony(at)DV8motoring.com for quicker response.
Nine Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 08:59 AM   #6
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by ablackburn99 View Post
What did you pay for the wheels?

Any pics?
You can get a price quote from Nine Ball; mine were a special deal I got by being the first to request a wheel for a 2010 Camaro from Nutek and allowing them to use my car for developing the wheel. Jim at Nutek asked me not to tell but they're not cheap, however they were exactly what I wanted with a custom paint theme.

I'm going for a Blue Angel's theme that's also somewhat like the Sunoco Camaro theme.
Attached Images
 
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 10:02 AM   #7
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Ball View Post
Seddon, rotating mass is far worse than static mass though. If you lighten your wheels, brake rotors, driveshaft, flywheel, etc... you will certainly gain performance. Also, moment of inertia comes into play when going with larger diameter wheels. Moment of Inertia. Some of these guys putting heavy cast 22s on their Camaros that are meant for SUV's are really killing performance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seddon View Post
I went with D2 Forged 3 piece 22x9 and 22x11 didn't really a loss in power but a big difference in grip and traction the wider wheels and tires are planted on the floor. If you worried about 30-40 pounds get rid of the stock exhaust and go aftermarket will save some weight. I personally wouldn't worry about a few pounds.
UNSPRUNG rotating mass is a number one area for improving performance. Saving 10 lbs of unsprung rotating mass per corner has the same effect as removing 160 lbs of sprung mass. It's the dead weight x 4; 4 wheels = 40 lbs x 4 = 160. It does more than you might think.

The ability of the suspension including the shocks, bushings, etc. to handle the mass is also affected by how much weight it's trying to manage. Every little up or down movement is handled by the suspension which is trying to keep the tires in contact with the surface. The difference between 55 and 70 lbs is considerable when springs and shocks are trying to manage it. Weight adds strain to tires, bushings and shocks.

There's also the factor of the amount of torque it takes to get that mass in motion, and the amount of braking force it takes to slow it down. The more unsprung rotating mass, the more engine power and torque it takes to get it moving. It literally absorbs and requires more power to move. Once that mass is in motion, it takes more braking power to slow it down so in a side-by-side braking test, with 2 identical cars except for wheels, the one with the heavier wheels will take longer to stop. That's very bad for racing and on the street can be the difference between stopping in time or not.

I've saved 7 lbs with the tire/rim combo, 6 lbs with the brake rotor, 5 lbs with the Pedder's coilover for each front wheel, and 12 lbs with the tire/rim combo in the back compared to the stock 20's. I'll save another 5 or 6 lbs in the back per corner when Racing Brake completes and ships the rear rotors; I already have their rotors on the front. And my tires are 1.5 inches wider in front and .5 inches wider in the back compared to stock. This car grips like crazy and tracks surfaces quite well.

On wheels there's also the factor of where the weight is. How far from the center is the weight? As a test to illustrate this to yourself, pick up a broom, hold it in the middle and twist your wrist. Note how much twisting force (torque) it takes to rotate it left and right. Now move your hand to the end of the handle and try it again. You'll note how much heavier the broom feels and how much more force it takes from your wrist to move it the same way. The broom weighs exactly the same but by moving the weight further from the center you can directly feel how much more power it takes to move it and how much "heavier" it feels. That's an exaggerated example to illustrate the effect but that's what happens with a larger and larger rim, even if it weighs the same as a smaller one.

Not everyone cares of course; some are more into show than go and they like big rims stuffed into their wheel wells because that's what the designer show cars have. It's up to you and what you want but just know that there's a trade-off; bigger and more show equals a hit in performance whether you fully realize it or not. There's a reason why you don't see huge rims with rubber band tires on race cars; they understand it full well and in their world, performance is everything.

Some people will swear they are just as fast with big wheels but if you let them do 5 timed laps on a road course, then switched their 21's or 22's with 19's or 18's and let them do another 5 laps, their times would improve. They'd be amazed at the improvements in handling and steering response and being able to go into a corner deeper before starting to brake.

Bigger rims and the tires for them are more expensive too. You can expect to pay probably around $1,200 and up for a set of performance tires for a 22, while the tires for my 19's run $700 a set. That $500 per set I'm saving can go towards other upgrades (which it has hehe). It all depends on what's the most important to you and what kind of experience you want with your car but there's a good solid performance reason to go with smaller wheels if performance is your main goal.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 12:15 PM   #8
Nine Ball



 
Nine Ball's Avatar
 
Drives: 1969 & 2011 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,842
Doc beats his small wheel drum loudly

Several variables here that aren't mentioned though. Tire brand, weights, compound, widths, etc... all play a much bigger role at the track than just diameter alone. Even having too much width can hurt you sometimes, due to more weight. Just be careful about generalizing based on wheel diameter. A guy rolling on 18s with craptastic tires will get owned at the track by someone on 20s with better tires. Same tires, sure the 18s *should* handle and accelerate quicker.

Also Doc, you could shave even more weight from your 19s by going with a race prepped wheel. Lighter forging profile, titanium hardware, and stepped lips. There is still room for improvement. That extra paint on your wheels added weight too, hehe.

However, that is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone here that still drives their Camaro on the street is that hardcore. If weight was the main issue, they simply started with the wrong car in the first place. There are a lot of ways to reduce weight on the Camaro, as heavy as it is.

Tony
__________________

www.DV8Motoring.com
Forged Wheels & Customs
PM's disabled, please email Tony(at)DV8motoring.com for quicker response.
Nine Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2010, 01:44 PM   #9
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Ball View Post
Doc beats his small wheel drum loudly

Yessir.

Several variables here that aren't mentioned though. Tire brand, weights, compound, widths, etc... all play a much bigger role at the track than just diameter alone. Even having too much width can hurt you sometimes, due to more weight. Just be careful about generalizing based on wheel diameter. A guy rolling on 18s with craptastic tires will get owned at the track by someone on 20s with better tires. Same tires, sure the 18s *should* handle and accelerate quicker.

Figured I'd pounded the drum enough but the tire you choose has a very definite effect. Wheel size alone doesn't automatically guarantee better handling, but it does guarantee no weight penalty. Setting up the chassis for handling and having the driving skill to use it counts for a great deal too.

Also Doc, you could shave even more weight from your 19s by going with a race prepped wheel. Lighter forging profile, titanium hardware, and stepped lips. There is still room for improvement. That extra paint on your wheels added weight too, hehe.

We looked at titanium hardware but the costs didn't justify the gain for my application which is primarily street with an occasional track use. Yeah there's probably a pound in paint but it looks so much better than plain aluminum.

However, that is a bit extreme. I don't think anyone here that still drives their Camaro on the street is that hardcore. If weight was the main issue, they simply started with the wrong car in the first place. There are a lot of ways to reduce weight on the Camaro, as heavy as it is.

Tony
Yeah I'm not building a full-time race car. But I understand the value of what they do and I love the looks of the Sunoco Camaros. I'm looking at 3.91 gears in the rear and a carbon fiber driveshaft as being probably the last 2 suspension/drivetrain mods at this point. The car just may be good enough at that point to not need to do anything to the engine but spend time driving it on the track to upgrade the driver mod which is probably the most important upgrade.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 06:57 AM   #10
youngmaro
 
youngmaro's Avatar
 
Drives: SIM 2LT/RS
Join Date: May 2010
Location: ATL
Posts: 110
I'm thinking about getting 22" mht multi piece forged wheels. probably 22x9 in the front and 22x11 in the rear (let me know if there's a better combo for 22's). Mine is a daily driver and will never see a track. Do you think I'll lose a substantial amount of passing power?
youngmaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 09:44 AM   #11
PQ
1st State Chevy supporter
 
PQ's Avatar
 
Drives: Hybrid SS Camaro
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 36,749
Send a message via Yahoo to PQ
You can be serious about show AND go, and get 21-22 inch wheels.

There are different ways to do this.

So you have to add a few more ponies and mod the car up a little more to beat that Shelby or whatever. It can be done. Plus, you can keep a set of 19s around also.

YES, tall rims will slow you a bit, but I think it's exagerated a great deal. At least in perception.

Same suspension, same HP and mods, and the only difference being 22 inch wheels against 18s with good tires, ya, you're gonna get beat. But if you have stiffer suspension for the twisties, and 50 more ponies and torque, you should win.

It's just another factor in the whole equation. A factor that can be overcome.

Now, it just takes that other guy to add to his car to equal up the mods again, and you have the dissadvantage again. Eventually I will get me some 19s and go to the track every once in a while, but for now, I'll just make sure I have the right stuff to beat that GT-500 even WITH 22 inch wheels.
__________________
PQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 10:06 AM   #12
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by PQ View Post
You can be serious about show AND go, and get 21-22 inch wheels.

There are different ways to do this.

So you have to add a few more ponies and mod the car up a little more to beat that Shelby or whatever. It can be done. Plus, you can keep a set of 19s around also.

YES, tall rims will slow you a bit, but I think it's exagerated a great deal. At least in perception.

Same suspension, same HP and mods, and the only difference being 22 inch wheels against 18s with good tires, ya, you're gonna get beat. But if you have stiffer suspension for the twisties, and 50 more ponies and torque, you should win.

It's just another factor in the whole equation. A factor that can be overcome.

Now, it just takes that other guy to add to his car to equal up the mods again, and you have the dissadvantage again. Eventually I will get me some 19s and go to the track every once in a while, but for now, I'll just make sure I have the right stuff to beat that GT-500 even WITH 22 inch wheels.
Before you decide the difference is exaggerated, get your 19's and do a test. Run some laps with your standard 22's, then switch to the 19's and see how much actual difference there is. I noticed it just going from 20's to 19's; I can imagine what it would feel like going from 22's. The car feels more alive, more responsive.

I'd really be interested in hearing your report; you'd give an honest no-bs evaluation.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 11:29 AM   #13
Hot Rod
 
Drives: 99' Honda Civic
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Edgewood, MD
Posts: 72
Doc,

I love the way your car looks with those 19" rims. After reading your post you have convinced me this is the only way to go. I have a few question. What have you done to your suspension? I think the stance is perfect. One of my greatest fears is lowering my car and it not looking right. Why does yours fit like that? Are the rims offset? Do the rims make the stance look good? Is it the suspension? Is it the tires? What should I be looking for to get this stance?

My objectives are performance and style for a daily driver. I plan on buying a V6 and the more I look into, the more I think I'll buy and LS and modify it to the point where it costs me as much as buying the Synergy Camaro I want, approx. $26,374.00 - not exactly including wheels and tires. If the wheels and tires cost me around $2000.00 that the same as getting the Synergy with Intake and full exhaust only modifications.

Thanks for your help!

Hot Rod
Hot Rod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 11:34 AM   #14
rayhawk

 
rayhawk's Avatar
 
Drives: Trailblazer SS
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Miami
Posts: 858
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
You can get a price quote from Nine Ball; mine were a special deal I got by being the first to request a wheel for a 2010 Camaro from Nutek and allowing them to use my car for developing the wheel. Jim at Nutek asked me not to tell but they're not cheap, however they were exactly what I wanted with a custom paint theme.

I'm going for a Blue Angel's theme that's also somewhat like the Sunoco Camaro theme.
What size tires are you running?
__________________
Hooters, hooters, yum yum yum, hooters, hooters on a girl thats dumb.
-Al Bundy

07 2WD Trailblazer SS, LS1 E-fans, 4" FWI, pcmforless tune
72 VW Beetle, 2275cc, Dual 44 IDF's
rayhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 11:37 AM   #15
JusticePete
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,144
Here is what a set of 19s can do on track.


My car runs the full Justice Package:
Full Pedders Bushes
Supercar Coilovers
Competition Bars

How fast is it? A Cadillac CTS-V Race Car (Caged, No HVAC, No Interior, Triangulated, Penske Racing Coilovers custom valved and on Hoosier A6 Slicks) is 1.5 seconds slower than our fully equipped DAILY DRIVER. There is a caveat to this statement. This was a test session. The brake pads on the Camaro were not up to the task. We were running a prototype set of sway bars that only served to prove our Solution C is the best set of bars available. With Solution C bars back on the car and pads more suited to the track abuse we expect to be much faster than the Race Car.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 01:43 PM   #16
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Rod View Post
Doc,

I love the way your car looks with those 19" rims. After reading your post you have convinced me this is the only way to go. I have a few question. What have you done to your suspension? I think the stance is perfect. One of my greatest fears is lowering my car and it not looking right. Why does yours fit like that? Are the rims offset? Do the rims make the stance look good? Is it the suspension? Is it the tires? What should I be looking for to get this stance?

I have the Pedders Street Xa suspension package which includes their coilovers. Car is lowered about 1.5 inches. Stance is perfect and handling is fantastic.

My objectives are performance and style for a daily driver. I plan on buying a V6 and the more I look into, the more I think I'll buy and LS and modify it to the point where it costs me as much as buying the Synergy Camaro I want, approx. $26,374.00 - not exactly including wheels and tires. If the wheels and tires cost me around $2000.00 that the same as getting the Synergy with Intake and full exhaust only modifications.

Thanks for your help!

Hot Rod
Quote:
Originally Posted by rayhawk View Post
What size tires are you running?
I'm running 275/40 19's. I wanted the same size on all wheels so I could rotate the tires and to reduce understeer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
Here is what a set of 19s can do on track.


My car runs the full Justice Package:
Full Pedders Bushes
Supercar Coilovers
Competition Bars

How fast is it? A Cadillac CTS-V Race Car (Caged, No HVAC, No Interior, Triangulated, Penske Racing Coilovers custom valved and on Hoosier A6 Slicks) is 1.5 seconds slower than our fully equipped DAILY DRIVER. There is a caveat to this statement. This was a test session. The brake pads on the Camaro were not up to the task. We were running a prototype set of sway bars that only served to prove our Solution C is the best set of bars available. With Solution C bars back on the car and pads more suited to the track abuse we expect to be much faster than the Race Car.
If what Pete just wrote doesn't tell it like it is, nothing will. The advantage is real.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 03:57 PM   #17
Stewcam
 
Stewcam's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS/RS
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: The Woodlands, TX
Posts: 333
I agree with the smaller wheel argument but it can be overcome with engine modifications. What strikes me odd is that the Camaro is a great car but if you really want to get on a road course and race, a lighter car such as a corvette will eat up a Camaro due to a rough 600 lb difference. Having said that, I love the concept of taking our cars to the limit.
__________________
Yellow SS/RS
LMR Twisted Slayer 650 RWHP, ARH Headers, Hi-flow cats, Carbon/Organic Twin Disc/Pfadt/BMR/Hurst Shifter/D2forged VS1's
Stewcam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 06:00 PM   #18
JusticePete
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewcam View Post
I agree with the smaller wheel argument but it can be overcome with engine modifications. What strikes me odd is that the Camaro is a great car but if you really want to get on a road course and race, a lighter car such as a corvette will eat up a Camaro due to a rough 600 lb difference. Having said that, I love the concept of taking our cars to the limit.
Mine already runs faster laps than a Z06

It should be clear to everyone that with the modifications we have made to the Camaro we could go out and buy a Z06. A Z06 will still fit only two people. I have three daughters. That makes a Vette a nice car for me when my daughters are off to college. I love picking them up at school in my faster than a Vette Camaro. Now when we start doing Vette suspension components, it will make it really hard to keep the Pedderised Camaro running as fast as the Pedderised Vette.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 06:56 PM   #19
ablackburn99
 
ablackburn99's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 CAMARO 2SS/RS LS3 VR
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Baldwin)
Posts: 74
Quote:
I've saved 7 lbs with the tire/rim combo, 6 lbs with the brake rotor, 5 lbs with the Pedder's coilover for each front wheel, and 12 lbs with the tire/rim combo in the back compared to the stock 20's. I'll save another 5 or 6 lbs in the back per corner when Racing Brake completes and ships the rear rotors
What did you pay for your front and rear rotors?

Did you notice much improvment in braking or less rotating mass performance?

And what about the coil overs?

Have you looked into drive shaft or flywheel?
ablackburn99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 11:16 PM   #20
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by ablackburn99 View Post
What did you pay for your front and rear rotors?

Did you notice much improvment in braking or less rotating mass performance?

And what about the coil overs?

Have you looked into drive shaft or flywheel?
Racing Brake made the rotors for us specifically; they hadn't made them for the Camaro before. I contacted them originally and to make a long story short, we wound up with a group buy opportunity. You can read about it here:

http://forums.racingbrake.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

The rear rotors haven't been finished yet but they should be ready very soon. I also got the stainless steel braided brake lines put on at the same time I put the front rotors on, but the braking is now just outstanding. Very linear; no sudden "grab"; you get exactly the amount of braking you're pushing the pedal for. And that's still with the stock rear rotors. Can't wait until I get the rears installed!

As for suspension performance, the reduction of unsprung weight in the front has made the car feel so much better. Understeer is greatly reduced. Cornering is much more precise and stable. Acceleration feels crisper; it doesn't feel like I'm pushing against a headwind like it did when it was stock.

The coilovers are great. They do a fantastic job of road handling, yet the ride is not harsh at all. They have 30 levels of adjustment so you can dial in pretty much any firmness you like up to rock hard.

I'm already waiting on a carbon fiber driveshaft.

Lighter flywheel I've considered but at the moment I think I'd rather put 3.91 gears in the differential; bigger bang for the buck.

When doing these kinds of mods don't expect any single one thing to be the big bang of excitement. A car is a system of systems; one thing affects another. As you keep making upgrades to various systems, you can feel it getting better, and better, and better. If you were able to go from dead stock to all the things I've done in one big upgrade, then the difference would be quite dramatic. But if you do them piecemeal like most of us do, then it's a gradual transformation. But well worth it and fun. Carefully researching each upgrade before choosing one is part of the fun. Experiencing them all work together is very satisfying too.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-24-2010, 11:29 PM   #21
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stewcam View Post
I agree with the smaller wheel argument but it can be overcome with engine modifications. What strikes me odd is that the Camaro is a great car but if you really want to get on a road course and race, a lighter car such as a corvette will eat up a Camaro due to a rough 600 lb difference. Having said that, I love the concept of taking our cars to the limit.
Actually that's not exactly correct. Yes you can overcome the weight penalty with enough horsepower if you're only going in a straight line, but extra horsepower won't change the handling and performance of the suspension. In fact more power can push you into understeer even easier which is not a good thing. In the corners, handling is king. And it's in the corners where the most time can be lost or gained unless it's an unusually fast track with lots of straights and few corners.

If I had to choose, I'd rather have less power and fantastic handling. Nothing is more frustrating than a car that plows like a barge and just won't hold the corners; more power only makes that worse. That's why I'm spending my time and money getting the chassis, brakes and handling up to par before I even think about adding more power. And honestly, over 400 hp is nothing to sneeze at. These cars already have a lot of power; my car is quite enjoyable with the power it has.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 11:09 AM   #22
Nine Ball



 
Nine Ball's Avatar
 
Drives: 1969 & 2011 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,842
Bah. More power just requires more driver skill. You can control how much power you make by the throttle pedal. Its the tall one on the right. Just because you have a 600 hp engine, that doesn't mean you keep the throttle pegged to use all of it at all times. Its probably a 300 hp setup at 1/2 throttle
__________________

www.DV8Motoring.com
Forged Wheels & Customs
PM's disabled, please email Tony(at)DV8motoring.com for quicker response.
Nine Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 11:26 AM   #23
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Ball View Post
Bah. More power just requires more driver skill. You can control how much power you make by the throttle pedal. Its the tall one on the right. Just because you have a 600 hp engine, that doesn't mean you keep the throttle pegged to use all of it at all times. Its probably a 300 hp setup at 1/2 throttle
Yes the driver mod is the most important upgrade of them all. And one often overlooked in the rush for "more power". It also depends on how sensitive the throttle is and how the power responds. IF the power is linear, then half throttle is half power but as I'm sure you know, it usually isn't. And you also have the torque curve to deal with. If you're on boost of some kind it's even more exciting to try and control the application of power in a corner. An understeering car is a bear to control; period.

This is a non-issue for straight-liners who's throttle control issues are keeping the tires from spinning off the line, then once they hook just mashing it down for 10-12 seconds. On a road course it's a completely different ball-game. Chassis performance is the dominant issue on a road course in most cases. Look at the videos of the Sunoco #6 Camaro that Matt Bell posted on the forum where the Camaro took pole position, then read what happened in the race when the suspension went off tune. Awesome driver, pole-winning power, poor finish in the race.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 11:55 AM   #24
Nine Ball



 
Nine Ball's Avatar
 
Drives: 1969 & 2011 Camaro SS
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 3,842
Racing is all about trying to make numerous variables come together and work effectively. I've logged well over 1,000+ quarter mile passes...in a single vehicle. I've also tracked most of my cars at various road courses. I actually prefer road course racing quite a bit more, just for the raw challenge of pushing a vehicle to its handling/traction limits.

The best way I've seen road racing described is this: "Road racing is just like a series of dragstrips, connected by curves."

I'd certainly opt for having too much power, over not enough power. I don't consider power and handling related at all. Driver applies the power, period. When you do get on those straights, and want to pass a vehicle, you'll need that extra power. Lap times are also affected by the car in front of you. Also, understeer is not a power issue. It is a chassis issue, as well as a "coming into a corner too hot" issue. Again, driver related issue. Having more than enough power, with a RWD car, you can also correct that understeer with throttle.

Chassis setup is critical. Power is critical. Driver skill is critical. I consider each of these to be independent, but you need all three to work together. If you lack any of them, you simply lose. LOL
__________________

www.DV8Motoring.com
Forged Wheels & Customs
PM's disabled, please email Tony(at)DV8motoring.com for quicker response.
Nine Ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-25-2010, 10:08 PM   #25
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: California
Posts: 3,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine Ball View Post
Racing is all about trying to make numerous variables come together and work effectively. I've logged well over 1,000+ quarter mile passes...in a single vehicle. I've also tracked most of my cars at various road courses. I actually prefer road course racing quite a bit more, just for the raw challenge of pushing a vehicle to its handling/traction limits.

The best way I've seen road racing described is this: "Road racing is just like a series of dragstrips, connected by curves."

I'd certainly opt for having too much power, over not enough power. I don't consider power and handling related at all. Driver applies the power, period. When you do get on those straights, and want to pass a vehicle, you'll need that extra power. Lap times are also affected by the car in front of you. Also, understeer is not a power issue. It is a chassis issue, as well as a "coming into a corner too hot" issue. Again, driver related issue. Having more than enough power, with a RWD car, you can also correct that understeer with throttle.

Chassis setup is critical. Power is critical. Driver skill is critical. I consider each of these to be independent, but you need all three to work together. If you lack any of them, you simply lose. LOL
Everybody has their own style of driving. I'm a big fan of the old Lotus philosophy of soft damping, great suspension; it won several Formula 1 World Championships for them. And that was against cars from other manufacturers that had more power.

Trying to compensate for understeer by power spinning the rear tires is like opening a can of soup with a sledge hammer; yeah it works...but... there's a better solution that's more effective without the waste.

I consider driver skill the number 1 factor; chassis setup the number 2 factor; power number 3. Obviously you disagree but like I said, everyone has their own style. Look at what Justice Pete's Camaro is doing against cars with more power; it's the philosophy of finesse versus brute power.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
JBA Performance Headers | Mid-Pipes | Exhausts | V6/V8 | FREE S&H!!! AJ@ECSMotorsports V8 Bolt-Ons & Tunes 100 11-13-2010 03:51 PM
VIP Forged Wheels For Sale EVS Motors Inc. Wheels / Tires 45 01-19-2010 05:13 PM
Corvette Grand Sport fills gap in price, performance 6 Shooter General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 10 08-24-2009 08:49 PM
M6 3.42's SUCK daniel@txangl.com Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons 60 06-14-2009 02:10 PM
Hardcore racers rejoice!! GM Performance Parts to offer new Camaro body in white radz28 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 23 12-22-2008 09:57 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.