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Old 11-01-2008, 03:09 PM   #1
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Forget the Z28...get straight to the ZL1

I think a better option than the Z28 model would be to put the Corvette ZR1 engine in the Camaro and call it a ZL1.

This seems like a more worthy advisary to the Mustang GT500KR.

"With the factory's stock dual exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; headers, slicks, and tuning got it into the 11.6s at 122 mph. Chevy never built a quicker production car."


If you don't know what the ZL1 is read this:
http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/...camaro-zl1.htm
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Old 11-01-2008, 03:18 PM   #2
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Okay. The GT500KR base MSRP is $79,995 and navigation and the Shaker1000 stereo are extra cost options. So GM could conceivably drop the LS9 into a gen5 Camaro and call it a ZL1 and charge $80K or so for it.

Oh yeah, just why would they want to do this? The Corvette Z06 and ZR-1 are already available if you absolutely feel you have to drop $80K or more on a car.
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Old 11-01-2008, 03:26 PM   #3
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good point cammi its not like ford has another better car that it makes especially since they stopped making ford GT's
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Old 11-01-2008, 03:39 PM   #4
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Okay. The GT500KR base MSRP is $79,995 and navigation and the Shaker1000 stereo are extra cost options. So GM could conceivably drop the LS9 into a gen5 Camaro and call it a ZL1 and charge $80K or so for it.

Oh yeah, just why would they want to do this? The Corvette Z06 and ZR-1 are already available if you absolutely feel you have to drop $80K or more on a car.

The ZR1 is $100k minimum and besides it is a completely different vehicle. Your points about the Corvette are completely irrelevant regarding the proposition of an $80k Camaro.

I believe more $80k Camaro ZL1's would sell than $100k Corvette ZR1's.
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Old 11-01-2008, 03:49 PM   #5
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Question #1. Who actually owns the name ZL1?
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Old 11-01-2008, 04:16 PM   #6
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Question #1. Who actually owns the name ZL1?
I assume GM, but I can't find anything on it.
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Old 11-01-2008, 04:32 PM   #7
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Question #1. Who actually owns the name ZL1?
Chevrolet built ZL1s in very limited production in the fourth generation. There's no reason to believe that GM liquidated the name from what I can tell.
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:09 PM   #8
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Why not use the Z/28 monicker for the same vehicle and play off of that much more known history?
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
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Why not use the Z/28 monicker for the same vehicle and play off of that much more known history?
because the zl1 was a better car then the z/28
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:16 PM   #10
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Why not use the Z/28 monicker for the same vehicle and play off of that much more known history?
The Z28 is a Z-Camaro. The Z06 is a Z-Corvette. When in history has a Camaro been faster than a Corvette out of the factory? The Z28 is designed to be subordinate to the Z06, not because Z06 is lower (Z-cars are not ranked, per se), but because Corvettes are faster than Camaros.
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:23 PM   #11
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I guess I just want to see the Z28 not die. :-/
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Old 11-01-2008, 05:27 PM   #12
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they cant make a zl-1 and not make a z/28
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Old 11-01-2008, 06:00 PM   #13
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Chevrolet built ZL1s in very limited production in the fourth generation. There's no reason to believe that GM liquidated the name from what I can tell.
I believe if you go back and research it, Chevy/GM did not officially build the fourth gen. ZL1 Camaros (outside of some prototypes), rather most of them were a combined effort of Berger Chevrolet and GMMG. Now I may be wrong on this and if someone has better info I'd love to hear it as my 4th gen. history is not as good as my 1st gen. history! Anyway, if what I stated about 4th gen. ZL1 Camaros is essentially correct, that is much different than the two Corvettes and sixty-nine Camaros that were equipped with ZL1 engines by Chevrolet in 1969 as COPO production models. And in the first gen. effort there was never a Camaro model named ZL1, it was just a COPO Camaro equipped with the ZL1 engine package.
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Old 11-01-2008, 06:27 PM   #14
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there was a concept ZL1 4th gen.

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/cars/camarozl1.html


513ci 8.4L 770+hp....lol
http://www.zlx.com/camaro/zl1.htm
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Old 11-01-2008, 06:59 PM   #15
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I believe if you go back and research it, Chevy/GM did not officially build the fourth gen. ZL1 Camaros (outside of some prototypes), rather most of them were a combined effort of Berger Chevrolet and GMMG. Now I may be wrong on this and if someone has better info I'd love to hear it as my 4th gen. history is not as good as my 1st gen. history! Anyway, if what I stated about 4th gen. ZL1 Camaros is essentially correct, that is much different than the two Corvettes and sixty-nine Camaros that were equipped with ZL1 engines by Chevrolet in 1969 as COPO production models. And in the first gen. effort there was never a Camaro model named ZL1, it was just a COPO Camaro equipped with the ZL1 engine package.
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there was a concept ZL1 4th gen.

http://www.fantasycars.com/derek/cars/camarozl1.html


513ci 8.4L 770+hp....lol
http://www.zlx.com/camaro/zl1.htm
That was my mistake. I must've read something about a ZL1 fourth generation Camaro and thought that they actually produced something more than a concept. In any case, that shows the ownership of the ZL1 name belongs to Chevrolet, and such a program would still be feasible. If the name had been sold, then Chevrolet would have no choice but to name a high-performance Camaro something else.
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:03 PM   #16
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There were more than that, Spike. Scott brought his 2001 ZL1 to the Dallas State Fair and auto show in 2007....it was (I think) LeMans Blue with houndstooth interior.

...Regardless, if GM does not own, nor did not renew the ZL1 name, they can not use it. They (goodness, I hope this is correct) would have to get the okay from the corporation that owns it and pay them a percentage.

I don't know why....but I was thinking that SLP was going to come out with a special edition.....possibly the ZL1 or some other name. Oh well, I have no idea...but that would be kinda cool, no?
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Old 11-01-2008, 07:18 PM   #17
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There were more than that, Spike. Scott brought his 2001 ZL1 to the Dallas State Fair and auto show in 2007....it was (I think) LeMans Blue with houndstooth interior.

...Regardless, if GM does not own, nor did not renew the ZL1 name, they can not use it. They (goodness, I hope this is correct) would have to get the okay from the corporation that owns it and pay them a percentage.

I don't know why....but I was thinking that SLP was going to come out with a special edition.....possibly the ZL1 or some other name. Oh well, I have no idea...but that would be kinda cool, no?
I know there were more than that.

there was one with a 572 big block dropped in (not sure if it was legit or the owner just badged it as such), ill see if I can find it.

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Read that link that Spike posted, it'll tell you everything you need to know.
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But not all people were born awesome like you, Spike.

Last edited by CamaroSpike23; 11-01-2008 at 07:23 PM. Reason: edit...found it
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:23 PM   #18
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There Was A REd One At INDY.. GM WINDOW STICKER AND ALL...

AND UNFORTUNATLY THIS IS THE ONLY PIC I HAVE OF IT....
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:27 PM   #19
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If you say there were more, than I would have to take your word for it. All of the searches I've done show prototypes/concepts that Chevy did but no production versions, any actual versions of 4th. gen with a ZL1 engine that were sold that I can find were built/produced by Berger/GMMG from Camaros already at dealers. I'd love to see documentation of 4th gen. ZL1 Camaros actually built by Chevy to make my Camaro history knowledge more complete.
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:47 PM   #20
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TRIXXTERR,
As I said, all my searches have not turned up any actually built by Chevy, but I'm willing to be proven wrong. The following article is typical of the info I have been finding in my searches and they all state Berger/GMMG, not GM/Chevy. In fact if you read the article you will see that GMMG states that Chevy owns one of the early VIN #s produced by GMMG. And you can also go to this link directly for GMMG and see what they say: http://gmmginc.net/programs/ZL1/ .
Clyde

The Hancock-Henderson Quill, Inc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ZL1 Supercars Brought La Harpe Fun-Surprises!
by Dessa Rodeffer, Quill Publisher/Editor

La Harpe can now lay claim to a "COPO/Supercar" after Sunday's third unveiling of more of the sixty-nine 2002 ZL1 "Supercar" Camaros.

After three cars were unveiled with Fred Gibb's former racer and salesman Herb Fox handing over keys to the out-of-state new owners, a fourth "Supercar" was unveiled in the back of the former Fred Gibb Chevrolet dealership. The final owner for the day, in a surprise announcement by GMMG, Inc. CEO, Matt Murphy was revealed as Mrs. Helen Gibb, wife of the late Fred Gibb.

After Matt and Helen told their stories, Helen was handed her keys by Herb Fox. Then her flashy medium plum metallic ZL1 Supercar was unveiled. Now, the COPO ZL1 Supercars have come full circle for La Harpe, and Helen couldn't be happier.

Later at her home in a dinner for new ZL1 Supercar owners, their families and organizers, Helen talked about her decision to buy one of the ZL1 cars.

"My desire in the first place was to remember Fred and his accomplishments in bringing about the ZL1, but I also wanted to acknowledge the City of La Harpe, because it is the home of the ZL1."

Helen said that no one in La Harpe has owned a COPO car since the Gibb's racing era.

"La Harpe has been very good to us through the years," she said, "and I wanted La Harpe to lay claim to having a part in this. I would like for them to think it is ours together."

Helen talked of how this was a better investment right now than the small amount she was getting on C.D.s. She laughed as she said, "I asked my banker how soon it would be before I would be paying him (for keeping my money)."

Helen got the desire to purchase a car after the New Year's Eve Day unveiling. She saw how the cars and Fred's accomplishments meant to so many people, and the work they had put into restoring many of the cars.

"It wasn't about having a new car," she said. "It was to salute Fred's accomplishment and a community that had supported him."

"And I am going to drive the car."

Helen has been able to get insurance that allows her to drive the automatic "supercar" as a pleasure car, and said she will be driving it on occasion "in good weather."

Helen was presented a life-time membership in the Worldwide Camaro Association by its Michigan State Representative, Patrick Lewis.

The other three new owners were from out-of-state. The closest was Dave Belk of Davenport, Iowa with his wife Leanne. Dave said he had bought and sold a silver ZL1 after he found he could get a lower number. He purchased the #2 Garnet Red Phase III which has a 600 h.p. engine.

He had it painted Garnet Red because it was one of the '69 ZL1 colors. To buy the car he sold his "Dale Earnhardt Intimidator SS", a 375 h.p. Camaro package which was put together by Matt Murphy for the Earnhardt dealership.

"The Intimidators all came in black with the same motors and little options," Belk said.

There were around 82 or 83 made and a limited 30 were signed by Dale Earnhardt.

"I had one of the signed ones so I knew it would sell," he said.

Belk said the Fred Gibb fame and the 2002 ZL1s had a lot more appeal to him.

"I sold my Earnhardt car immediately because of the ZL1 mystique. I knew it would be recognized more because of Fred Gibb."

Belk owns Q.C. Networks, a sport net manufacturing company in the Quad Cities. He is also soon opening "The Batter's Box, a baseball training facility near Interstate 80.

Carl Stuber of Cedar Rapids, Iowa is the owner of the 1969 ZL1 Camaro #65 Fathom Green and now proud owner of the # 65, 2002 ZL1 Supercar Camaro, also in Fathom Green. The interior is black and white houndstooth, the same as produced in '69 especially for the ZL1s.

"It's a love addiction," he said. "I'm a car show enthusiasts showing for ten years now."

Stuber works in the cellular phone industry and also has a web site where he sells a battery product.

Stuber also owns two Yenko cars.

The other owner of a new Silver Cortez 2002 ZL1 Supercar Camaro is Kevin Hand. Hand is in the car industry and for two years has been head of a Honda dealership. He is part owner of an auto chain "Crown Automobiles" with dealerships across North Carolina and Virginia.

He was equally excited about the day, with this car his 9th purchase of collectible cars. He has 7 Yenkos and two ZL1s, he said, the #13 1969 Fred Gibb ZL1 that he purchased in California from Jack Head Chevrolet. The car had originally come from La Harpe, he said. Now he has the #13 2002 ZL1 in the same Cortez silver but with different striping and a 600 h.p. engine.

"I store them in captivity," he said.

Hand had to rush to catch a plane back to North Carolina, but soon was on the Internet posting his obvious excitement about the day.

Listen in to his post on the web:

"If time could have taken me back 34 years I wouldn't know what to do with myself. If you get one of these cars you have to take delivery of it at the Gibb dealership.

"It was nice seeing some great friends not to mention the kindness that Helen and Nancy Gibb showed toward all the enthusiasts. WOW!

"If anyone has not considered these cars to be supercars then they need to drive one, 600 horsepower.

"I wasn't going to drive mine until Belk and Stuber took off and before I knew it I was running towards the car and the adrenaline started to flow.

"I eased out of the dealership and cruised slowly in 1st gear and hit 2nd and nailed it and oh my! my! It broke loose and I was completely amazed at what this car could do. It was a blast and a memory I will never forget!"

"You have to get one of these cars, they're amazingly fast and streetable at 93 octane gas. The engine rumbles and rocks the car at idle. It's 7 hrs. later and I still haven't come off of my cloud. What a great time, with the boys, locals , and the Gibb family, not to forget Berger Chevrolet and the great job Matt Murphy did on the car. Sorry, I got a little long winded! Man Oh Man!

"Lucky car #13 owner 2002 and 1969 ZL1 owner #13...Who says 13 is an unlucky # ? "

"How many of these things do you think they would have sold if we all knew then what we know now?

"I bet there would be a lot more 427's of the allotment, blocks coming from Chevrolet, DEI enterprises doing the building, Helen Gibb signing off on the project, taking delivery at Gibb Chevrolet, what else?"

-Kevin-Greensboro, N. C.

Another note came from Dennis Barker of Berger Chevrolet.

"Personally I do not believe there are enough nice words to explain how nice a day it was in La Harpe.

"The hospitality shown by Helen & Nancy Gibb, Arlan (the owner of the facility) and Kenny Brown was just totally awesome!! It is a day we will never forget !

"Helen's car is #PR3 meaning it is the 3rd prototype built. Chevrolet owns #1, Matt Berger of Berger Chevrolet owns #PR2 and now Helen Gibb of Fred Gibb Chevrolet owns #PR3. Kind of fitting since the ZL1 was born out of Fred Gibb Chevrolet.

-Dennis Barker (Berger Chevrolet) Belding, MI

Another note reads:

"One of Matt's guys drove Helen's Car with her in the passenger seat...she loved it. I think everyone was very happy she got a car.

"What a super awesome day again in LaHarpe.

"Those 600 h.p. cars sound awesome. I will say again that Matt has made these cars into cars that will go down in the muscle car history books.

"Being a older fellow, I have been to a lot of car related events, the two days at La Harpe have to be at the top.

ZL102 - Illinois

And one more post:

"What a great day! It was truly a memorable experience. I think the part that I enjoyed the most (although there were several) was when they unveiled Helen's car. She got in the car, fired it up and gave us a nice reeeeeeev!! It was great! The sound of those cars is unbelievable!"

0-CLINT-IOWA

Thirty members of the West Michigan Worldwide Camaro Club came and held their monthly meeting at Helen's Saturday and stayed in the area to see the Camaro ZL1 unveilings on Sunday.

The 69 Zl1s 2002 Supercars GMMG, Inc. is producing from the Camaros are scheduled to be finished by the August car show in La Harpe Matt Murphy said.

La Harpe folks should plan for an even bigger car show than ever.

Last edited by wildpaws; 11-01-2008 at 09:21 PM. Reason: added link
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:50 PM   #21
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New Z/28 should be turbo DI V6. The entire focus of the Z/28 program has always been, and should always be, balance. High RPM power and great handling/chassis/balance.

ZL1 is ALL about POWER, and if you can manage to keep it in one lane, bonus!

I love both, but there's no "better"; just different. What do you want to do?

Either way, this car needs to lose 500lbs.
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:26 PM   #22
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Either way, this car needs to lose 500lbs.
Agreed!
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Old 11-01-2008, 11:56 PM   #23
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I know the LS7 is on its way out, but if a Z/28 is produced, it should get an LS7.

ZL-1 should get the LS9
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:01 AM   #24
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Well, historically the SS has always been faster than any of the number series (when they exist). Likewise, the Camaro z/28 has always been inferior to the Camaro SS. It's a completely reborn Camaro, I say it's time to create a new legacy by going with something original. I'd rather see GM use a moniker that has never been used before.
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Old 11-02-2008, 12:18 AM   #25
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Doesn't 2011 mark the 45th anniversary of Camaro.
We might see something special that year.
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