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Old 07-27-2010, 07:27 PM   #301
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FI V6s have always been cool to me.

Keep it up!
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Old 07-27-2010, 08:57 PM   #302
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LLT's idle at 500psi of fuel pressure, I logged that. I heard numbers in the range of 2500psi at WOT from other members. I haven't logged WOT.

'Normal' fuel pressure these days is from 43psi to 55psi depending on application, and that's consistent idle through WOT. We're in a totally different ballgame here.

I'd worry about the upper ring lands first, because as mentioned, they're thin. On top of that you have the real problem, the rind end-gaps close up as the heat expands them, and once you reach the point of serious heat (boost and detonation), the rings but up against themselves (0 ring gap) and push out on the cylinder walls. This puts a severe stress on them, then SNAP. Time for a rebuild.

As for the strength of the pistons themselves, I wouldn't put much of a HP limit on them as long as detonation and overheating is kept away. Rods go first typically from too much power, but I think these rods will handle quite a bit. That's just a guess on my part, though, but they do seem to be pretty stout. I wouldn't worry about the crank at all.

Water/Meth injection along with the FMIC should quell the temps and detonation quite nicely when dialed in. I think the next limitation is injector size. No one seems to know yet how much they'll give.

As a throwout guess, I would believe 425whp to be a reasonable estimate with meth and 8 or 9 psi.

What we really need to find out is... What is the compression on the non-DI 3.6's, and are the heads the same other than the injector ports? I'd think those pistons would swap right in, and compression any lower is a help for boost on these.
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Old 07-27-2010, 09:25 PM   #303
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What level of rwhp will you be happy with? I was amazed at the other thread where there is heavy debate about getting a V-6 to 300 rwhp.
That thread is about trying to get that power without forced induction. Somebody did a estimate on possible cost.... and it might come close to what you would pay for a turbo system.
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Old 07-28-2010, 10:15 AM   #304
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LLT's idle at 500psi of fuel pressure, I logged that. I heard numbers in the range of 2500psi at WOT from other members. I haven't logged WOT.

'Normal' fuel pressure these days is from 43psi to 55psi depending on application, and that's consistent idle through WOT. We're in a totally different ballgame here.

I'd worry about the upper ring lands first, because as mentioned, they're thin. On top of that you have the real problem, the rind end-gaps close up as the heat expands them, and once you reach the point of serious heat (boost and detonation), the rings but up against themselves (0 ring gap) and push out on the cylinder walls. This puts a severe stress on them, then SNAP. Time for a rebuild.

As for the strength of the pistons themselves, I wouldn't put much of a HP limit on them as long as detonation and overheating is kept away. Rods go first typically from too much power, but I think these rods will handle quite a bit. That's just a guess on my part, though, but they do seem to be pretty stout. I wouldn't worry about the crank at all.

Water/Meth injection along with the FMIC should quell the temps and detonation quite nicely when dialed in. I think the next limitation is injector size. No one seems to know yet how much they'll give.

As a throwout guess, I would believe 425whp to be a reasonable estimate with meth and 8 or 9 psi.

What we really need to find out is... What is the compression on the non-DI 3.6's, and are the heads the same other than the injector ports? I'd think those pistons would swap right in, and compression any lower is a help for boost on these.
Ya think nitrous would be fine to 425whp or is torque more of an issue?
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:58 PM   #305
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I don't think its just the fuel management. I plan to boost at 8 psi with the meth kit and expect to be slightly over 400 rwhp. I would think boosting beyond that, or adding horsepower beyond that, would require internal work and upgraded drive train. I just don't buy the Vortec argument of we won't build it until we can get fuel management to support the higher boost levels.

What level of rwhp will you be happy with? I was amazed at the other thread where there is heavy debate about getting a V-6 to 300 rwhp.

Now as far as getting the front off the ground, maybe if I can sit my fat _ss in the trunk I might be able to get it done.....
Too much is almost enough. I was just sayin that I think it would be cool to see a V6 pull a wheely down a drag strip
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:13 PM   #306
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Too much is almost enough. I was just sayin that I think it would be cool to see a V6 pull a wheely down a drag strip
Cool. Wheelies are always impressive. Maybe we can get Rod1 to add a 200 shot and see if he can lift the front.:emoticon7: Just kidding Rod1. But I bet he'll be juicing to get into the 11's.
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Old 07-29-2010, 11:14 AM   #307
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Ya think nitrous would be fine to 425whp or is torque more of an issue?
not to take this thread off-topic too much, but ROD, how has your motor been taking to all the extra power with the giggle gas? Did Trifecta tune for when you're spraying? Also, have you not had to worry about any fuel issues while spraying??

Maybe your luck means our motors can adapt to increase airflow with the direct injection...to a degree
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Old 07-30-2010, 08:50 AM   #308
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not to take this thread off-topic too much, but ROD, how has your motor been taking to all the extra power with the giggle gas? Did Trifecta tune for when you're spraying? Also, have you not had to worry about any fuel issues while spraying??

Maybe your luck means our motors can adapt to increase airflow with the direct injection...to a degree
Well this should pretty much give ya some good insight. This is an email response from trifecta after sending him a log from a 100 shot nitrous run.

The car actually looks happier running NOS than not running it. Lol.

From the logs, I’d consider the tune optimized at this point. Fuel and timing look great.

If you need any other changes, just let me know. Thanks!

Good luck at the track today!

- Vince Geglia

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Old 07-30-2010, 08:55 AM   #309
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Cool. Wheelies are always impressive. Maybe we can get Rod1 to add a 200 shot and see if he can lift the front.:emoticon7: Just kidding Rod1. But I bet he'll be juicing to get into the 11's.
Prolly no wheelies lol. If I don't and prolly won't make it into the 11s with my next run, I will send the log to Vince and see waht he thinks before going any farther. I trust him completely. Ive read the the 1st concern with this motor is ring expansion which is prolly less of an issue with nitrous due to its cooling properties. Next run is more to get back on the V8 fast list lol.
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Old 07-30-2010, 12:53 PM   #310
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Wow, I'm sure you will be back on the list. But man, look at the company you are with. Being in the top 30 is pretty cool. Dang I wish I had access to a quarter mile...
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Old 07-30-2010, 04:10 PM   #311
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Ya think nitrous would be fine to 425whp or is torque more of an issue?
Boost is easier on internals (in terms of strength) than nitrous or natural aspiration at the same power level, partially because the boost 'cushions' the reversal of the piston/rod assembly (It's a small effect, but apparently enough to make a difference).
Nitrous is more like natural aspiration on crack.

That being said, since we don't know of anyone who's found the various limits of this engine yet, I can't say for sure, but knowing what's in it and comparing to other engines that I do know, I don't think 425whp on nitrous is out of the question by any means, with a good tune. I agree with Vince, in terms of compression ring temperatures specifically, you're better off than you'd be with boost at the same power. Depending on the factory top ring gap and the rings' expansion properties, the extra power (which creates extra heat, of course) may or may not be enough to butt the ends together. I don't know.

If I was into nitrous, I'd go for it. My wife wouldn't like me for a while if I had to buy an expensive junkyard pullout after blowing the warranty, but it'd be fun finding out. I'd call it a sacrifice for the good of the Camaro5 community.

Disclaimer: If you blow anything up, it's not my fault!
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Old 07-30-2010, 04:14 PM   #312
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Wow, I'm sure you will be back on the list. But man, look at the company you are with. Being in the top 30 is pretty cool. Dang I wish I had access to a quarter mile...
Do you have a relatively flat stretch of road where you can relatively safely reach ~120mph? If so, the newer G-tech's and the GPS based timers are very accurate these days. You'd just have to make a few runs in both directions and average the results. It wouldn't be 'officially official', but it'd be good enough for me.
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Old 07-30-2010, 07:16 PM   #313
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Do you have a relatively flat stretch of road where you can relatively safely reach ~120mph? If so, the newer G-tech's and the GPS based timers are very accurate these days. You'd just have to make a few runs in both directions and average the results. It wouldn't be 'officially official', but it'd be good enough for me.
I looked at G-Tech, looks like it works off of the accelerometer. Which ones are GPS? I was about to order a Dashhawk for other readings but this looks better for timing. Any suggestions on the GPS type?
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:09 AM   #314
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Dang I wish I had access to a quarter mile...
SO DO WE! :(
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:27 PM   #315
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I looked at G-Tech, looks like it works off of the accelerometer. Which ones are GPS? I was about to order a Dashhawk for other readings but this looks better for timing. Any suggestions on the GPS type?
I've got an older G-Tech, and a DashHawk, I need to plug them both in and see what happens, lol.


Here's something you might be interested in. It's GPS based, although, I've seen that be off too. Nothing is going to be truly 100% accurate. I think as long as something is consistent, it will give you an idea.
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Old 07-31-2010, 03:17 PM   #316
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I've got an older G-Tech, and a DashHawk, I need to plug them both in and see what happens, lol.


Here's something you might be interested in. It's GPS based, although, I've seen that be off too. Nothing is going to be truly 100% accurate. I think as long as something is consistent, it will give you an idea.
Let me know. I definetely want to get one the these. I know a few stretches of roads I can use. I have a couple of mods coming and I want to see how much difference they make in acceleration. Anybody with experience with any of these please chime in!
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Old 07-31-2010, 09:42 PM   #317
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Sweet.
Yeah, the GPS based units I hadn't looked into until this thread, had only heard about them. I searched, and came up with the one posted above. It's pricier than the new G-tech but it's from a very reputable company who designs much higher end toys (Vbox).
For my Fiero I bought an in-dash GPS speedometer from Speedhut Gauges. http://www.speedhut.com/custom_gauge...number-821.htm
It also records timing, distance, and acceleration measurements. While this would not be ideal for occasional use, it's great because it'll be cleanly mounted in my dash because, well, it's my speedometer.

The newer 3-accelerometer G-techs are quite accurate, and a GPS unit with a good amount of sat links will be very accurate as well. These have both been tested extensively by many people at drag strips all over, and they're consistently almost dead-on, but they show your actual trap speed which is a little bit higher than the strips because their systems rely on a set of timers at the end that average your car's speed based on the time that passes between each timer being tripped. Since you're still accelerating, this average is a bit lower than your actual speed at the 1/4 mile mark.

The problem you have without a dragstrip is that you usually don't have a perfectly level road, so you need to make averages based on runs in both directions to 'level out' the playing field, if you will. Unless the surface is really screwed up or there are significant elevation changes, this will get you pretty darn close. Most die-hard drag strip junkies won't touch these times in terms of anything being "official", but they're officially accurate.

As for modding and noting the changes, they're a great tool regardless of the accuracy. In that case they only need consistency, which they all have as well.

Last edited by ALLTRBO; 07-31-2010 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 07-31-2010, 10:08 PM   #318
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ALLTRBO;
Do you have any posts here anywhere on your Fiero? Ide love to check it out. Always wanted to get a late model V6 and soup it.

Edit, found it NM.
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Old 08-01-2010, 02:04 AM   #319
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For the benefit of everyone, I pulled the trigger and just ordered a VBOX. Hopefully I have some time next weekend. Also figuring a mounting place for my camera. Thanks for the information everyone. Also note, I drove the car 4 of 5 days to work this week to see of any issues and pleased to report no problems. I just received the boost controller an the meth kit so that's my next project. But I want to log some times with the VBOX first before installing the kit.

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Old 08-01-2010, 02:57 AM   #320
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For the benefit of everyone, I pulled the trigger and just ordered a VBOX. Hopefully I have some time next weekend. Also figuring a mounting place for my camera. Thanks for the information everyone. Also not, I drove the car 4 of 5 days to work this week to see of any issues and pleased to report no problems. I just received the boost controller an the meth kit so that my next project. But I want to log some times with the VBOX first before installing the kit.
Sweet
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Old 08-01-2010, 07:27 AM   #321
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You ordered the actual VBOX? Sweet! I'd love to play around with all the things that can do.
You rock. I'm looking forward to results.
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Old 08-01-2010, 01:36 PM   #322
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Someday, they'll erect a statue in your image, for all the work you've done for us!

Thanks for all the info!
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Old 08-01-2010, 03:36 PM   #323
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I wouldn't go that far, LOL.
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:24 PM   #324
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Someday, they'll erect a statue in your image, for all the work you've done for us!

Thanks for all the info!
Basically it would look like Buddha. Very round.....
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Old 08-01-2010, 05:26 PM   #325
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You ordered the actual VBOX? Sweet! I'd love to play around with all the things that can do.
You rock. I'm looking forward to results.
It was the one for $499. It looked like the GPS version so I hope that's pretty accurate. At least give me some ballpark figures of where the car is at.
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