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Old 09-03-2010, 06:19 AM   #426
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Good questions and that's why I joined this forum, for the information sharing so thanks for sharing. After discussions with Trifecta and STS, it was determined that it is not a fuel issue. My first thought was the same thing, not enough fuel to keep up with the boost. However, it was discovered by Trifecta that the ECM is not providing the right data based on the airflow read by the MAF so the computer moves into a "safe/limp" mode until the readings come back into range. Both STS and Trifecta believe that the current fuel injectors are capable to flow enough for the boost that I want to run. I was just sent a new tune so I'll be trying it out tonight. Keep your fingers crossed.

As far as 2 tunes, I should only need to run 1 tune. I know that N20 (e.g. Rod1) needed two separate tunes, however since the turbo is really just increasing the airflow, a single tune should be sufficient. At least that's what is expected right now.

I know its been said but Trifecta has been terrific to work with. The data logger has allowed the "mail order tune" process to work really well (actually e-mail). I currently have a Diablo Predator for my LS1 but will be purchasing a tune from Trifecta as I am sure he can tune the ECM much better than I can with the handheld Predator.
What's the diameter on your MAF housing?
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:12 PM   #427
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Scrming, I'll have to double check but I want to say 3". Do you have some ideas?
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Old 09-03-2010, 05:21 PM   #428
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Scrming, I'll have to double check but I want to say 3". Do you have some ideas?
So IIRC that would be pretty close to stock... wonder if you are maxing out your MAF sensor... on the Stang when we put the Vortech on the MAF housing went from stock 2.5 to like 4 inch... must FI kits that I know end up with larger MAF housing...
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:23 PM   #429
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That was my concern too but both Trifecta and STS think that the MAF is fine however, STS is looking at some air straighteners to see if that helps.
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Old 09-05-2010, 12:43 PM   #430
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I have an STS kit coming. Will dyno the car before installation, get some drag strip times and then do the same after. Next week is the finals for the street tire shootout. If I can't make that then test and tune after.
Hope to get it all done before the snow gets here. Michigan you never know.
I have a second kit available.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:29 PM   #431
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Awesome. Everyone is looking forward to the 1/4 times. Are you just going with the base kit for now?

Last edited by Z Madness; 09-05-2010 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:15 PM   #432
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I have an STS kit coming. Will dyno the car before installation, get some drag strip times and then do the same after. Next week is the finals for the street tire shootout. If I can't make that then test and tune after.
Hope to get it all done before the snow gets here. Michigan you never know.
I have a second kit available.
Very cool Rich!!! Really looking forward to this! Let me know when you'll be heading to the track... BTW, Lapeer is open to November 28th! LOL
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:11 PM   #433
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Its the base kit with the upgrade bearings turbo.
I am planning on looking in to using E-85. I am not sure if that will work. I don't know if the fuel volume can be changed to work or not. But it would be great if it could be worked out.
I do have a friend using it with an Older Camaro that has 14:1 compression and it works great as long as you get the summer blend. I know that is carburetor, and I am planning on converting my Chevelle to E-85 to because it is cheap, will work with the high compression (13:1) and cools too.
Scrming, I will let you know when I am going. I plan to go to Edmore, (Midmichigan motorplex) though. Its closer to me.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:15 PM   #434
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Its the base kit with the upgrade bearings turbo.
I am planning on looking in to using E-85. I am not sure if that will work. I don't know if the fuel volume can be changed to work or not. But it would be great if it could be worked out.
I do have a friend using it with an Older Camaro that has 14:1 compression and it works great as long as you get the summer blend. I know that is carburetor, and I am planning on converting my Chevelle to E-85 to because it is cheap, will work with the high compression (13:1) and cools too.
Scrming, I will let you know when I am going. I plan to go to Edmore, (Midmichigan motorplex) though. Its closer to me.
I forgot... you're on the other side of Hemlock! LOL! Definitely keep me posted!
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Old 09-06-2010, 06:44 PM   #435
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Its the base kit with the upgrade bearings turbo.
I am planning on looking in to using E-85. I am not sure if that will work. I don't know if the fuel volume can be changed to work or not. But it would be great if it could be worked out.
I do have a friend using it with an Older Camaro that has 14:1 compression and it works great as long as you get the summer blend. I know that is carburetor, and I am planning on converting my Chevelle to E-85 to because it is cheap, will work with the high compression (13:1) and cools too.
Scrming, I will let you know when I am going. I plan to go to Edmore, (Midmichigan motorplex) though. Its closer to me.
Before you go E85, do you plan on doing base and boosted dyno runs on pump gas? I'm just hoping so in an effort to limit variables.
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Old 09-06-2010, 09:44 PM   #436
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Yes, I won't be doing anything with E-85 until everything has been documented with regular pump gas. I will try to keep it same, same as much as possible. Fill up the car just before the strip times. Same station, same gas, etc. I want to keep everything as similar as possible.
Scrming, I am hoping to go to Test and tune Wed after work. Depends on the weather of course. Bring your car and lets go.
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Old 09-15-2010, 05:37 PM   #437
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Yes, I won't be doing anything with E-85 until everything has been documented with regular pump gas. I will try to keep it same, same as much as possible. Fill up the car just before the strip times. Same station, same gas, etc. I want to keep everything as similar as possible.
Scrming, I am hoping to go to Test and tune Wed after work. Depends on the weather of course. Bring your car and lets go.
Did you guys make it to the track last week?
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:06 PM   #438
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Did you guys make it to the track last week?
Rich made it out to the track on Sunday... I was stuck at work! ARGH! Rich was out to get a good baseline... I know he got some runs in but not sure how he ended up... This was the first time he at the 2010 to the track...
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:28 AM   #439
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I was looking at the SAE papers on the 3.6L SIDI V6 yesterday. Interested in how much headroom was in the stock fuel injectors and fuel pump. The fuel pump has a bit of range in it,and the SAE paper even mentions turbocharging. By my math, there should be enough high pressure fuel pump for about 550 hp at the engine. I haven't figured out the fuel injectors yet. DI is a bit different with the fuel injector calculation. The SAE papers mention a few different styles of injector, even a few flow rates, but I didn't see a duty cycle that I could figure out.
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Old 09-23-2010, 10:36 AM   #440
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550! That would be amazing!
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:38 PM   #441
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Sean of Team Stillen and I will sit down this weekend and do some calculating on the duty cycle of the injectors. I know what they can flow and the pulse width. I just need to plug in the numbers for the desired fuel amounts to achieve certain power levels at high RPMs in order to see where it maxes out.
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Old 09-23-2010, 03:57 PM   #442
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Sean, Have you looked at the MAF by any chance? We are having issues with the MAF reading the correct airflow at higher boost. I don't think fuel is an issue at this point but we are definately having problems with the ECM reading the airflow properly (at>5 psi). Also, have you looked into the tuning of the ECM yourselves or are you working with someone else? Lingenfelter was concerned that they wanted more horsepower out of their system and I suspect they gave up due to problems with safefully increasing the boost. Also, the Leno car only had about 360+ish (I forgot what the actual number was) on their twin turbo so I would suspect they couldn't crank up the boost as well.
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:10 PM   #443
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Sean, Have you looked at the MAF by any chance? We are having issues with the MAF reading the correct airflow at higher boost. I don't think fuel is an issue at this point but we are definately having problems with the ECM reading the airflow properly (at>5 psi). Also, have you looked into the tuning of the ECM yourselves or are you working with someone else? Lingenfelter was concerned that they wanted more horsepower out of their system and I suspect they gave up due to problems with safefully increasing the boost. Also, the Leno car only had about 360+ish (I forgot what the actual number was) on their twin turbo so I would suspect they couldn't crank up the boost as well.
I have not looked at the GM V-6 MAF. However, I have dealt with a lot of different MAF's over the years in forced induction cars. Modern MAF's, and intake systems are very finicky. They can be tuned/parts changed around, but sometimes its complicated to figure out those issues.

Some of the problem's may be fundamentally tied to how the STS turbo charger works, blowing across a MAF that generally is only on a negative pressure side. It might require some rethinking for this car.

DI requires some rethinking, I have been interested in DI for a long time, and I enjoy studying it. More power, lower octane. Its really a win, win situation. However on the aftermarket side, it does make things a little more difficult, but if it was easy, everyone would do it. I try and embrace the newer technology and figure it out rather than just go the route of some people, and get rid of it.

As far as the ECU tuning goes. I know people that have access to stuff that a lot of other people might not.
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:23 PM   #444
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I have not looked at the GM V-6 MAF. However, I have dealt with a lot of different MAF's over the years in forced induction cars. Modern MAF's, and intake systems are very finicky. They can be tuned/parts changed around, but sometimes its complicated to figure out those issues.

Some of the problem's may be fundamentally tied to how the STS turbo charger works, blowing across a MAF that generally is only on a negative pressure side. It might require some rethinking for this car.

DI requires some rethinking, I have been interested in DI for a long time, and I enjoy studying it. More power, lower octane. Its really a win, win situation. However on the aftermarket side, it does make things a little more difficult, but if it was easy, everyone would do it. I try and embrace the newer technology and figure it out rather than just go the route of some people, and get rid of it.

As far as the ECU tuning goes. I know people that have access to stuff that a lot of other people might not.
Thanks for the response, I sent you a PM.
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Old 09-23-2010, 07:30 PM   #445
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What about the MTI racing installed STS Camaro? That guy hasn't exactly been as vocal as we'd like him to be, but as far as I know he hasn't had issues with the MAF....or has he??

..and not that it matters, but I thought the Leno car was rated at 425HP.
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Old 09-24-2010, 02:21 AM   #446
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No problems with MAF at 5 psi. Problem occurs once I boost higher. Jim is staying with the 5 psi spring so he shouldn't have any issues. Hopefully he post up once he gets his 1/4 mile times.
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Old 09-24-2010, 10:11 AM   #447
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No problems with MAF at 5 psi. Problem occurs once I boost higher. Jim is staying with the 5 psi spring so he shouldn't have any issues.
Do you know if its maxing out the MAF? How close to 5V's is the reading at 5 psi ? It might be pegged out. Might need some MAF cal, bigger housing, different MAF to read higher boost.
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Old 09-24-2010, 03:12 PM   #448
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this is getting interesting. keep the info coming. i want to buy this kit but i need to know if the benifits are worth the cost. what 1/4 mile improvements are to be had, how high can we boost reliably (5psi just doesnt seem to be enough, 7-10 psi would be nice). make sure you guys keep us in the loop
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:08 PM   #449
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Do you know if its maxing out the MAF? How close to 5V's is the reading at 5 psi ? It might be pegged out. Might need some MAF cal, bigger housing, different MAF to read higher boost.
I was just going to post about this. It sounds like you're running into an issue where you've reached the max hertz(frequency) with this MAF.

If this is the case, any improvement to airflow will result in issues even at lower boost levels.

Fear not though, you can upgrade to a larger diameter tube and recalibrate that MAF, or go with a MAF that will read a higher frequency and calibrate that MAF.

Trifecta should know what to do here. I'd start with the V8 MAF, I believe that would be a good place to start.
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Old 10-08-2010, 07:45 PM   #450
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I was just going to post about this. It sounds like you're running into an issue where you've reached the max hertz(frequency) with this MAF.

If this is the case, any improvement to airflow will result in issues even at lower boost levels.

Fear not though, you can upgrade to a larger diameter tube and recalibrate that MAF, or go with a MAF that will read a higher frequency and calibrate that MAF.

Trifecta should know what to do here. I'd start with the V8 MAF, I believe that would be a good place to start.
The MAF is not being maxed out. The readings were higher than what the ECM could process. We made good progress this week. Car is expected to go in the shop for some work on the front facia so hopefully we get this wrapped up soon after. Will update again in about a week or two. In the meantime, I'm sure we'll have lots to discusss with Jims results.
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