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Old 11-06-2010, 05:20 PM   #526
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Just got back from the track... no TB...

Rich had traction issues and shifting problems.. the 1-2 shift that people are having issues with really hurt him... he had to really kind of baby the shifts... also the gears are so short in the 6 speed he would hit the rev limiter before he knew it.....

Did he change over to the 3.73 gears?
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:20 PM   #527
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I don't remember hearing that he did switch gears. What tire combo is he running?

Rev limiter comes quick, we need to get a shift-light on these. When you hit the rev-limiter it feels like it kills the motor for a second(it feels like an eternity) whether you're changing gears or not.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:52 PM   #528
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Did he change over to the 3.73 gears?
Not yet, he did talk about still wanting to change gears.


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I don't remember hearing that he did switch gears. What tire combo is he running?

Rev limiter comes quick, we need to get a shift-light on these. When you hit the rev-limiter it feels like it kills the motor for a second(it feels like an eternity) whether you're changing gears or not.
He was running the stock RS tires from I recall.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:04 PM   #529
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Enough excuses, what were the times/traps?
I can understand a very slow start based on the temps, but the trap should be decent if anything else went well, even bouncing off the limiter a bit.

For the record, you don't want steeper gears with all that extra torque available, turbo cars are torque monsters, relatively speaking. Taller gears help keep traction and so make for a faster car overall, especially in the lower gears. As far as the NA V6's go (at least the manual), 3.73's with decent tires would help a lot based on my experience.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:32 AM   #530
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Enough excuses, what were the times/traps?
I can understand a very slow start based on the temps, but the trap should be decent if anything else went well, even bouncing off the limiter a bit.

For the record, you don't want steeper gears with all that extra torque available, turbo cars are torque monsters, relatively speaking. Taller gears help keep traction and so make for a faster car overall, especially in the lower gears. As far as the NA V6's go (at least the manual), 3.73's with decent tires would help a lot based on my experience.
I believe they were in the upper 14s with traps in the low 90s... basically loosing all the boost on the shifts... having to baby the 1-2 shift... also apparently it takes a long time to recover from hitting the rev limiter... So basically would kill the whole run.. Rich was trying his darnedest to get a good run, but just couldn't seem to get there... Rich loves the STS setup on the street, like Z and Jim... but with a manual at the strip it seems to be a different story...
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:56 AM   #531
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Ouch...

Did you guys datalog the runs by chance?
Hopefully Rich can figure out some techniques and tricks at the strip to help with those issues, I'm sure he'll tame them better as time goes on. That's a lot of changes to get used to all at once. I'm sure more traction might help because I imagine he was blowing away the cold tires on the cold pavement. What were the 60 foot's? I guess I can see all of that adding up to less than stellar times.

Since it has gotten colder out (~50*) my car spins all the way through first (even from a roll-on) and a bit into second, heh. I have the 19's with the stock Pirelli all-seasons at the moment, but they're still decent tires, and the car is 100% stock other than the current wheel swap from the RS 20's.
That being said, I can see the STS cars begging in that respect (as usual).

I think a MUCH lighter flywheel/clutch setup would greatly benefit these cars (both turbo and N/A), to me it's painfully obvious in every respect that this car's flywheel or flywheel/clutch is way too heavy. Losing all that mass and reducing the MOI will be a huge help with the second gear grinding (among other issues). With a lighter rotating mass, the free-wheeling RPM's drop faster, and at the same time the synchro's don't have to work nearly as hard to pull the RPM's down for the next gear because the mass is easier to slow down. For the turbo cars, shifting faster will help keep the turbo spooled a little better (as was alluded to). We also have a pathetic first to second RPM drop, but without tranny gear ratio changes we just have to deal with that.

Once we get some lighter flywheel options out there, I think a lot of the shifting issues will be improved, if not cured.

As for the rev limiter, if the tires and the clutch hold well enough, it's just a matter of practicing for the setup and conditions. It's usually better to short-shift a little than to hit the limiter.

Either way, the STS cars can only get better from here.

How's yours doing lately, Z?
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:14 AM   #532
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No excuses, just have some issues to try to resolve, I did run a 14:245 which I won't call good at all, I know it has potential to do much better. In each run, the 60 foot times were not where they should be, 2.1-2.4. 1st and 2nd gear I was spinning the tires even after the slow shift.
At this point I am at a loss how to get past the 1-2 shift being so difficult. I doubt a shifter change would make a difference as I feel it is a clutch/transmission issue?
Seems speed shifting is difficult in modern transmissions, http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113398 and listen to the shifts.
When under boost in 1st, 2nd, hitting the rev limiter comes fast with the spinning of the tires. Having slicks would help this. Once moving down the track without that issue may change the whole situation?
I have some things to try after thinking about it and discussing it.
The Slicks are needed for sure. I have been looking for some lightweight wheels. Seems they aren't available in 18" to 20" that I can find. Anyone know of any? 18".
I am just out of time this year to make the changes now with the weather in Michigan moving in to winter. I will be back and hopefully with some more positive results.
I do have stock tires, stock rear end. Hmm, maybe I can plan a vacation to Florida and take it there? lol, Maybe a little Disney majic?
I will see if I can put a video on later today.
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Old 11-07-2010, 08:24 AM   #533
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No excuses, just have some issues to try to resolve, I did run a 14:245 which I won't call good at all, I know it has potential to do much better. In each run, the 60 foot times were not where they should be, 2.1-2.4. 1st and 2nd gear I was spinning the tires even after the slow shift.
At this point I am at a loss how to get past the 1-2 shift being so difficult. I doubt a shifter change would make a difference as I feel it is a clutch/transmission issue?
Seems speed shifting is difficult in modern transmissions, http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113398 and listen to the shifts.
When under boost in 1st, 2nd, hitting the rev limiter comes fast with the spinning of the tires. Having slicks would help this. Once moving down the track without that issue may change the whole situation?
I have some things to try after thinking about it and discussing it.
The Slicks are needed for sure. I have been looking for some lightweight wheels. Seems they aren't available in 18" to 20" that I can find. Anyone know of any? 18".
I am just out of time this year to make the changes now with the weather in Michigan moving in to winter. I will be back and hopefully with some more positive results.
I do have stock tires, stock rear end. Hmm, maybe I can plan a vacation to Florida and take it there? lol, Maybe a little Disney majic?
I will see if I can put a video on later today.
ROD1 is running knock-off Vette wheels with a spacer... Might be an option.

ROD1 wrote: "I run 18" 20 lb Z06 aftermarket rims with hoosier DRs 2" shorter than the 20" P-zeros. "
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:48 AM   #534
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Originally Posted by scrming View Post
Just got back from the track... no TB...

Rich had traction issues and shifting problems.. the 1-2 shift that people are having issues with really hurt him... he had to really kind of baby the shifts... also the gears are so short in the 6 speed he would hit the rev limiter before he knew it.....
See its not just a select few with the bug!!! In my pictures you can see a dynolicious log with a GOOD 1-2 shift taking about 0.75 second!!! Recent repairs by GM are just doing flywheel bolts and a new pressure plate if the trans isnt already wrecked. :(
Ill sell you my shifter if you want it, doesnt help. IMO its throwout bearing without enough travel in design, pressure plate, or drivetrain flex.. My 2c
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:21 PM   #535
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If you are saying that second won't engage during normal shifting, then I don't know what to say, because mine doesn't have that problem. It does grind if I try to shift quickly so I definitely have to shift slower. In this case, again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLTRBO View Post
I think a MUCH lighter flywheel/clutch setup would greatly benefit these cars (both turbo and N/A), to me it's painfully obvious in every respect that this car's flywheel or flywheel/clutch is way too heavy. Losing all that mass and reducing the MOI will be a huge help with the second gear grinding (among other issues). With a lighter rotating mass, the free-wheeling RPM's drop faster, and at the same time the synchro's don't have to work nearly as hard to pull the RPM's down for the next gear because the mass is easier to slow down.

Once we get some lighter flywheel options out there, I think a lot of the shifting issues will be improved, if not cured.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #536
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Basically, if I could shift as I could back in high school in my 72 Chevelle SS 454 with Rock crusher four speed then we would have something. If you could speed shift without letting off of the gas you wouldn't lose the time as much and maybe keep the boost. That being said, how can you speed shift a new Camaro? SS or non? Normal shifting sure it shifts just fine. It still is notchy feeling for a lack of a better word from 1st to second.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:14 PM   #537
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I know this would be illegal but im really curious to see how the turbo would run on a top speed or highway run, from a dig we know we have problems because of the tranny. but im wondering how fast it is rolling from 20 or 40 etc.
Any tracks where you could do this legally? Maybe a closed down airport strip.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:16 PM   #538
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No excuses, just have some issues to try to resolve, I did run a 14:245 which I won't call good at all, I know it has potential to do much better. In each run, the 60 foot times were not where they should be, 2.1-2.4. 1st and 2nd gear I was spinning the tires even after the slow shift.
At this point I am at a loss how to get past the 1-2 shift being so difficult. I doubt a shifter change would make a difference as I feel it is a clutch/transmission issue?
Seems speed shifting is difficult in modern transmissions, http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113398 and listen to the shifts.
When under boost in 1st, 2nd, hitting the rev limiter comes fast with the spinning of the tires. Having slicks would help this. Once moving down the track without that issue may change the whole situation?
I have some things to try after thinking about it and discussing it.
The Slicks are needed for sure. I have been looking for some lightweight wheels. Seems they aren't available in 18" to 20" that I can find. Anyone know of any? 18".
I am just out of time this year to make the changes now with the weather in Michigan moving in to winter. I will be back and hopefully with some more positive results.
I do have stock tires, stock rear end. Hmm, maybe I can plan a vacation to Florida and take it there? lol, Maybe a little Disney majic?
I will see if I can put a video on later today.
I know this is going to sound just wrong, but have you thought of launching in 2nd? It'd take away your 1-2 shift issue and help your traction issue.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:17 PM   #539
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Basically, if I could shift as I could back in high school in my 72 Chevelle SS 454 with Rock crusher four speed then we would have something. If you could speed shift without letting off of the gas you wouldn't lose the time as much and maybe keep the boost. That being said, how can you speed shift a new Camaro? SS or non? Normal shifting sure it shifts just fine. It still is notchy feeling for a lack of a better word from 1st to second.
Yeah, the guys with the manual 2005+ V6 Stangs ran into the same issue, under a heavy load simply couldn't shift into 3rd... now tack on some FI and it really became an issue... so guys were swapping their crappy T5s out for TR6060s...

And even if you could power shift, wonder how long it would take to explode that stock tranny... ????

So... will you be the first with an SS manual in a V6? Sounds like a fun winter project... I'll take pictures!
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:46 PM   #540
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I know this is going to sound just wrong, but have you thought of launching in 2nd? It'd take away your 1-2 shift issue and help your traction issue.
With 3.73/4.10 that might not be a bad option... Just make first a granny gear like the hd trucks... Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

On 2nd thought.. I managed to demolish the 2nd gear keyway 100% stock chirping tires on shifts.. Scrmings option is the only viable long term solution since these suckers are so anemic.
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Old 11-07-2010, 03:56 PM   #541
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:23 PM   #542
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Actually, I did give starting in second gear a thought. Hmmm?
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:27 PM   #543
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I thought of the tranny change too... from manual to an automatic.... lol
I wonder would be required to change to the SS manual trans. Can it be speed shifted? From what I see on videos they are being shifted lifting off the throttle too. Makes me think you can't shift them any faster. Although, they may last a little longer.
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:40 PM   #544
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Actually, I did give starting in second gear a thought. Hmmm?
Well, Lapeer is open until the end of November?
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Old 11-07-2010, 05:21 PM   #545
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Here's a solo run:

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Old 11-07-2010, 05:21 PM   #546
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Well, Lapeer is open until the end of November?

Hmmm...
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:12 PM   #547
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Ok, I get the 1-2 shift thing. It makes sense to me, and about the losing boost between shifts in a manual car....

...but in the first video posted above the ABM got off to what looks to me like a nice launch, but yet the VR Camaro seems to catch him towards the end. Even with the loss of boost during shifts, how in the world did that NA V6 catch the boosted V6?

Could the loss of boost and then trying to spin up the turbos again cause that much power loss while trying to spin em up again?

Sorry, just seems strange.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:25 PM   #548
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Actually, I did give starting in second gear a thought. Hmmm?
You'd be able to launch at a little high RPMs, building more boost off the line. Are you looking at a shift light? When it bounces off the rev limiter it feels like forever until the computer gives control back. I'm at the point where I have to shift to fourth right as I get to the first set of timing lights or bounce off the rev limiter.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:35 PM   #549
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Ok, I get the 1-2 shift thing. It makes sense to me, and about the losing boost between shifts in a manual car....

...but in the first video posted above the ABM got off to what looks to me like a nice launch, but yet the VR Camaro seems to catch him towards the end. Even with the loss of boost during shifts, how in the world did that NA V6 catch the boosted V6?

Could the loss of boost and then trying to spin up the turbos again cause that much power loss while trying to spin em up again?

Sorry, just seems strange.
Actually that's rtcat600man's IOM...
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:38 PM   #550
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You'd be able to launch at a little high RPMs, building more boost off the line. Are you looking at a shift light? When it bounces off the rev limiter it feels like forever until the computer gives control back. I'm at the point where I have to shift to fourth right as I get to the first set of timing lights or bounce off the rev limiter.
Yeah, Rich was telling how long it was taking to recover from hitting the rev limiter...
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