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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 11-05-2008, 12:25 AM   #1
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minimum hp gains from gmpp headers/A.I./catback?

what would be the minimum hp gains from gmpp additions? does the car have to be tuned after? will the dealership tune the car if necessary?
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Old 11-05-2008, 01:29 AM   #2
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35hp maybe without a tune
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Old 11-05-2008, 03:54 AM   #3
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I'm also curious about this,I'd love to get my camaro from the dealership with just shy of 500hp and it still be under warranty.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:40 AM   #4
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I'd say with about 99% certainty a tune will NOT be required.

the shorties will be worth 10hp MAX. CAI may be more like 15 and the catback probably 5.

Id say 25 to 35 to give you around 450hp stock


I can't imagine any problems running high 12's with a good driver with these mods on an average day.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:28 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383ss View Post
I'd say with about 99% certainty a tune will NOT be required.

the shorties will be worth 10hp MAX. CAI may be more like 15 and the catback probably 5.

Id say 25 to 35 to give you around 450hp stock


I can't imagine any problems running high 12's with a good driver with these mods on an average day.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:52 AM   #6
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25 hp
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:57 AM   #7
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I have working the tuning industry (mostly subarus) and you need to be careful withyour predictions. The cars brain is the ECU and it tells the car exactly how to run with what it knows. No there is some level of "learning" in these ECUs but not very much when you add mods like these.

We have seen the addition of a Subaru Performance Parts Intake to a stock application and the car LOST 7hp. After the tune it was up 3hp (this is to the wheels). The stock ECU couldn't understand the new MAF readings and all the additional air so it actually performed worse until tuned.

As for cat backs there is really nothing to tune there but in todays cars there is really not much of a gain there since the stock systems are pretty unrestrictive. Maybe 5 hp TOPS. These are mostly for sound.

Now for headers, shorties will do little for a car tuned for them let alone untuned. The real gain in headers is in long tubes (preferably without cats or hi flow cats). This is where the gains are. Shorties slapped on there with no tune will result in very very little. Maybe another 5.

So you may actually net nothing by adding all of these parts without a tune. And no GM will not be tuning your car lol. If you decide to put them on to "get extra warrentied performance" you probably did nothing but make the exhaust note cooler and empty your wallet. Now if you take that car and get it tuned for the mods, it will get you some better gains but now your warrenty will not be honored and they do have ways to detect if you have flashed the ECU.

I am telling you this from first hand experience, never trust a dyno plot of a part from an actual manufaturer. Subaru provides a dyno plot of their intake on an otherwise stock car with 11hp gain. We did the exact same test on the same car and got -7hp. You can make a dyno look anyway you want it is simple drag and drop lol. Only trust dynos from 3rd party tests and real world applications.

My advice. If you are going to mod....go aftermarket and do it right and cheaper. But understand you pay to play. Once you go this route you need to accept that you may get voided on powertrain when you have an issue. It is just the risk you take.

Either stay stock and stay happy or deal with the problems out of pocket if you decide to mod....
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383ss View Post
I'd say with about 99% certainty a tune will NOT be required.

the shorties will be worth 10hp MAX. CAI may be more like 15 and the catback probably 5.

Id say 25 to 35 to give you around 450hp stock


I can't imagine any problems running high 12's with a good driver with these mods on an average day.
Interesting, I thought this car, once broken in, would run high 12's all day with an average driver, a nearly empty tank of gas, and a low humidity day.

My predictions: shorties = 10-15hp, CAI = 15hp, catback = 5-10hp for a net gain of 30-40hp netting 452-462hp (6M), 430-440hp (A6).
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:52 PM   #9
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Old 11-05-2008, 05:56 PM   #10
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will long tube headers fit in the car?
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:00 PM   #11
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A tune is not required but for optimum gains it is. As for dealer tuning, there are some instances when GMPP parts are applied by the dealer (only way to insure warranty) and include a canned reflash for the ECM to accept and calibrate the new modifications. This was the case with the Cobalt SS/SC. I don't know if this will also be available for the Camaro, but since they are GM parts and dealer installed there is a very real possiblity of a reflash option or even being included.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:01 PM   #12
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will long tube headers fit in the car?
Once they are produced for the car, yes. It will be the aftermarket's responsibility to route the pipes to fit.
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:26 PM   #13
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a good tune would make the gains from those bolt-ons even more noticeable
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Old 11-05-2008, 06:35 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by 96CAMaro View Post
Interesting, I thought this car, once broken in, would run high 12's all day with an average driver, a nearly empty tank of gas, and a low humidity day.

My predictions: shorties = 10-15hp, CAI = 15hp, catback = 5-10hp for a net gain of 30-40hp netting 452-462hp (6M), 430-440hp (A6).
I was being conservative. Also for an average day I'm saying a DA of about 2000 and a descent track.



with great track/weather and driver, I'm sure mid 12's wouldn't be a problem.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:21 PM   #15
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From looking at some corvette LS3 dyno's with shorties, cat back, intake and a tune - we are looking at 400-415 rwhp. Stock LS3 dynos are showing 380 rwhp average from the research I have done on the corvette forums.
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
From looking at some corvette LS3 dyno's with shorties, cat back, intake and a tune - we are looking at 400-415 rwhp. Stock LS3 dynos are showing 380 rwhp average from the research I have done on the corvette forums.
sounds right on
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:49 PM   #17
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The only experience I can speak from is on the Evo, in it's particular case, they are de-tuned before shipping over here. A simple ECU flash, was gaining 40hp on the IX's.

Not saying that will happen on the LS3, especially knowing what it is rated in the vette. I would be more comfortable looking at the stock maps before even guessing what gains we might get out of the GMPP stuff.

As far as the parts w/o a tune, I can assume that the ECU will eventually adjust to the increased airflow, exhaust, etc. Is this correct?

Up to this point, reading new little tidbits every day, is about as exciting as we can get. But in 6 months, when we start to get the really good details, when we aren't driving them, we will be back here comparing notes...

That's when the REAL fun starts
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Old 11-05-2008, 09:55 PM   #18
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Yeah can't wait to start tuning these monsters. That is gonna be fun.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:01 PM   #19
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will long tube headers fit in the car?
Looks like they will fit just fine.
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Old 11-05-2008, 10:28 PM   #20
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I think you guys are going to be pretty dissapointed with these bolt ons without a proper tune of the ecu. Especially on the intake. The ECU can only trim so much and "learn" and depending on how poorly the GMP intake was made it might actually cost you power.

If you can't tune these parts b/c you want to save your warrenty, save your $ or risk it and go aftermarket. Usually the companies outsource these parts to other companies anyway. For example in the past GM performance exhausts were borla built with a little leass quality then the normal borla. In subaru the intakes and exhausts were all made by a well known performance company. But in the end they didn't live up to the advertised gains.

I will certainly not be a guinnea pig on these parts. Wait until someone buys into it, takes it to a local shop does a baseline, then intake no tune. And the same for the shorties and cat back. Gains WILL be minimal.
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Old 11-06-2008, 02:56 AM   #21
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tune the puppy. just DO IT!
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Old 11-06-2008, 09:16 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed74SS View Post
From looking at some corvette LS3 dyno's with shorties, cat back, intake and a tune - we are looking at 400-415 rwhp. Stock LS3 dynos are showing 380 rwhp average from the research I have done on the corvette forums.
damn good info. I was too lazy to search for it
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:11 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mblock66 View Post
I have working the tuning industry (mostly subarus) and you need to be careful withyour predictions. The cars brain is the ECU and it tells the car exactly how to run with what it knows. No there is some level of "learning" in these ECUs but not very much when you add mods like these.

We have seen the addition of a Subaru Performance Parts Intake to a stock application and the car LOST 7hp. After the tune it was up 3hp (this is to the wheels). The stock ECU couldn't understand the new MAF readings and all the additional air so it actually performed worse until tuned.

As for cat backs there is really nothing to tune there but in todays cars there is really not much of a gain there since the stock systems are pretty unrestrictive. Maybe 5 hp TOPS. These are mostly for sound.

Now for headers, shorties will do little for a car tuned for them let alone untuned. The real gain in headers is in long tubes (preferably without cats or hi flow cats). This is where the gains are. Shorties slapped on there with no tune will result in very very little. Maybe another 5.

So you may actually net nothing by adding all of these parts without a tune. And no GM will not be tuning your car lol. If you decide to put them on to "get extra warrentied performance" you probably did nothing but make the exhaust note cooler and empty your wallet. Now if you take that car and get it tuned for the mods, it will get you some better gains but now your warrenty will not be honored and they do have ways to detect if you have flashed the ECU.

I am telling you this from first hand experience, never trust a dyno plot of a part from an actual manufaturer. Subaru provides a dyno plot of their intake on an otherwise stock car with 11hp gain. We did the exact same test on the same car and got -7hp. You can make a dyno look anyway you want it is simple drag and drop lol. Only trust dynos from 3rd party tests and real world applications.

My advice. If you are going to mod....go aftermarket and do it right and cheaper. But understand you pay to play. Once you go this route you need to accept that you may get voided on powertrain when you have an issue. It is just the risk you take.

Either stay stock and stay happy or deal with the problems out of pocket if you decide to mod....
This is all pretty good info, but something to note is that adding aftermarket parts won't necessarily void your warranty. The Magnum Moss act protects consumers from this very thing. It was originally introduced to keep dealers from forcing consumers into buying oil/oil filters/air filters from them, but the word of the law opens it up to other bolt ons as well. Now let's say you bolt on aftermarket headers, and they crack 2 years from now...will that be warrantied like the factory GM manifolds....NO, however the headers should have their own warranty from the manufacturer.

Now let's take this same scenario and say that you have bolted on aftermarket headers and 20,000 miles later you burn a valve. Will GM deny the warranty on that valve because you have aftermarket headers installed? They may try, but the burden is on GM to prove the headers actually cased the valve failure.

I've been down this road with motorcycles and everything else, and it's unlikely any part of your warranty will be denied because you bolt on a few hop up parts.

Now, if you install a Supercharger running 10lbs of boost, flash the ECU, and your tranny has problems, THEN GM WOULD have a leg to stand on by denying the warranty on the tranny due to the level of mods.

Just use common sense here.

As for the power gains....all will be minimal with the bolt ons. I'd wager you'll get MORE gains from a proper tune WITHOUT ANY OTHER MODS vs. bolting on an intake, shorty headers, and cat back with no tune.

Proper air fuel ratio makes a significant difference in performance. From the factory these cars will run at 14.7:1. Proper tune is somewhere around 13:1 for naturally aspirated.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:14 AM   #24
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The only GMPP part I might buy would be the hot cam. Nothing else.
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Old 11-06-2008, 10:40 AM   #25
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^that and maybe the cai....

That's what I'm thinking....
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