Turbo Vs. Supercharger

[IPSjeff]

Originally Posted by PQ

This is one of the things that is appealing to me. Drives very much like a stock system till you mash a little more, the power is instantly there.

Very appealing to me. I can't see myself needing to accelerate 100-140 mph that often, but I want to be able to make that guy in his stock Shelby think there is something wrong with his car from a stop light.

0-60 or 80 is what I'm interested in.

That describes all the FI (Turbo and SC) options to be honest. It is a common misconception that a turbo car is only better from "100mph on up" while a roots-blower is the perfect 0-60 set-up.

Both are wrong IMO.

*IF* you are driving around on drag-radials or at the track where traction isn't an issue then a Maggie/Whipple could use that huge torque spike to get out ahead of a turbo car. 99% of the time on the street on street tires all it is going to do is spin and it is no advantage at all in terms of acceleration.

Turbo's (Specifically mine) have just as much of an advantage in 2nd gear as they do in 4th
Jeff

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by axis

If you understand that a SC'd engine is having to work harder to make the same HP output of a turbo, what's the problem? Two engines are making 600hp on engine dyno. One is SC'd, the other is turbo'd. Which one is putting more load on the engine to make that 600hp?

in fairness, I could be a complete moron here, but that is a function of efficiency isn't it?

Maybe I do see what you are saying...

if you start at a HP number, 600hp, you are saying that the engine is suffering from less wear and tear because the turbo makes that power with less boost? as a function of better efficiency.

Originally Posted by IPSjeff

That describes all the FI (Turbo and SC) options to be honest. It is a common misconception that a turbo car is only better from "100mph on up" while a roots-blower is the perfect 0-60 set-up.

Both are wrong IMO.

*IF* you are driving around on drag-radials or at the track where traction isn't an issue then a Maggie/Whipple could use that huge torque spike to get out ahead of a turbo car. 99% of the time on the street on street tires all it is going to do is spin and it is no advantage at all in terms of acceleration.

Turbo's (Specifically mine) have just as much of an advantage in 2nd gear as they do in 4th
Jeff

I agree, for the daily driven car any of the FI options will work and make the owner more than happy.

It comes down to price and the small differences in where the power is being made... and how that equates to their budget and build preference.

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

in fairness, I could be a complete moron here, but that is a function of efficiency isn't it?

Maybe I do see what you are saying...

if you start at a HP number, 600hp, you are saying that the engine is suffering from less wear and tear because the turbo makes that power with less boost? as a function of better efficiency.

Pretty much what your thinking .. think of it this way .. the turbo is more efficient. Any drive accessory is going to eat up some HP and would be a % loss .. that % loss is going to be more with a S/C than with a turbo (exhaust driven). That being said, theoretically for a S/C to make as much as a Turbo at the rear wheels, it would have to work that % (difference s/c vs turbo) harder which in turn will put more strain on the engine.

Or I could be talking out my butt ... lol .. but I think that is it ..

Crowley

[IPSjeff]

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

It comes down to price and the small differences in where the power is being made... and how that equates to their budget and build preference.

Budget differences exist for sure. SC Kit price and install will *Almost* always be cheaper than a Twin-turbo set-up.

The "Lag" misconception is pretty wide-spread as most have ridden in / driven / owned an EVO or STI or DSM that are small 2.0L or 2.5L 4-Cylinder engines with a turbo to make power. They can certainly feel like an on/off switch for sure. Put a 6.2L V8 behind a pair of turbos and there is no "Waiting" for power to come in what-so-ever
Jeff

[GTAHVIT]

Originally Posted by IPSjeff

Budget differences exist for sure. SC Kit price and install will *Almost* always be cheaper than a Twin-turbo set-up.

The "Lag" misconception is pretty wide-spread as most have ridden in / driven / owned an EVO or STI or DSM that are small 2.0L or 2.5L 4-Cylinder engines with a turbo to make power. They can certainly feel like an on/off switch for sure. Put a 6.2L V8 behind a pair of turbos and there is no "Waiting" for power to come in what-so-ever
Jeff

Agreed, I purposefully didn't use the word "lag" cus that is not the case.

My impression has been that turbos have a smoother delivery, not a hesitation or lag.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by mikeSS

when I said over all easier. I meant installation and maintenances. but ya turbos are better for the engine.

There is no extra maintenance with the turbos. Once installed just drive it like normal. Assuming a bottom mount set of twins there isn't even extra heat. I keep reading about how hard it is to install turbo's. They are not any harder or easier that installing a Blower and a set of headers. Even when installing the PD blowers they require a water to air heat exchanger in front of the radiator so that takes as much time as installing an air to air intercooler in that same locations

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by toehead93

The torque curve of a twin screw supercharger is pretty flat and make lots of torque down low. Procharger types make less low end power but equal top end power. As posted abve a single turbo has less lowend compared to a twin turbo setup. However I'm not familiar enough to compare a twin turbo's bottom end power to a twin screw supdercharger. It does appear that the TT will make more power per pound of boost.

A procharger will eat a twin screw, or any other PD blower after 5000 rpm. They are far more efficient as to HP it takes to drive them per pound of boost. That has been proven a billion times over. If you are looking for a great driving 500 rwhp car and you have an auto trans. You would be hard pressed to beat a Magnuson at 7 psi.

If you are willing to install headers then you should be willing to install a TT kit. The Twin Turbo kit at 7 psi or more will be king. HANDS DOWN. I said it best a few years back when I wrote an article for M/T. "When it comes to low speed stunt driving and fancy smokey burn outs, you can't be the PD style blower. But, when it comes to harnessing the power of a real American V8 and what they are capable of, you gotta go Twin Turbos"

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by maxpower5

as stated in a couple of responses - i would go with a procharger - around $7200 for the kit. you'd add 175 hp at the crank i believe.

ive researched kenne belle and whipple twin screw - although both are top of the line, you'll pay for it too. procharger still adds more hp an torque than any supercharger or single turbo.

good luck!

I gotta go with AXIS on this. Size for size, a single turbo will kill the Procharger. (and I am WD with Procharger and love thier products) that does not change the facts however. Likewise, while Procharger builds the biggest and baddest centrifugals on the market, If you are looking for a real 650hp centrifugal blown car, Vortech makes the nicer, cleaner and more professionally laid out kit. IMHO

[PQ]

Originally Posted by robertway

The way I look at it is from the passenger seat perspective. The turbos and centris at least give your passenger a chance to clench their butt cheeks before they soil themselves, the Maggie is going to cause you to be disinfecting your passenger seat a lot more

Originally Posted by GTAHVIT

Agreed, I purposefully didn't use the word "lag" cus that is not the case.

My impression has been that turbos have a smoother delivery, not a hesitation or lag.

I'd love to hear the reason from someone who could explain how they got the lag out. Seems to me, that because there is minimal 'blow' from the exhaust on launch, how then does it give you SC type instant power until it can build flow?

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by robertway

This statement has got me thinking. My main concern with introducing Forced Induction is a setup that gives me the most power at the same time the best chance the engine will last a really long time. I had kinda settled on a Centri with Meth Injection but have been researching Twin Turbos more and more and a statement like that seems to speak to the efficiency advantages Turbos apparently have.

Too many choices and just one car......

It has been said before and should be said again - there are a many great choices out there. Centrifugal with Meth injection is 1 choice but certainly would not be my first choice. You don't even need meth injection unless you plan to put stuff on the ragged edge. It has been shown 100 times over that you can safely make 600 rwhp and no meth inj.

So back t0 the same question - what is the real goal. If it is super safe on the engine and not looking to get over 600 rwhp which is 700 at crank then you can do that with a TT kit and nothing else at 8 to 9 psi

A centrifugal can certainly do it but it will take headers

[axis]

Originally Posted by PQ

I'd love to hear the reason from someone who could explain how they got the lag out. Seems to me, that because there is minimal 'blow' from the exhaust on launch, how then does it give you SC type instant power until it can build flow?

I guess it comes down to your definition of lag. For most, lag came from the smaller displacement motors with bigger turbo's on them. You'd push the gas and it would literally take several seconds for the boost to build up, then you'd be like a rocket. Pushing a big single or smaller twins with 6.2l of exhaust makes boost come on instanteously. Yes it takes time for the the HP/tq to rise to max levels but you can't make instant HP and TQ. Your engine would explode. If you want to get technical, there's lag between the time you push your gas pedal and when the TB opens. There's lag between the time you hammer it down and the Maggie makes power. It's all a question of your perspective. 400ft/lb of tq by 2500 rpm isn't too shabby in my book.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by thekid96

You must be referring to peak HP. Twin screw and turbos at equal boost will make more power under the curve than a centri every time, and always more torque.

That is a fact

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

I was TOLD The TVS 2300 would produce an additional 140rwhp/140rwtq on minimal boost.

Power would come on right off idle making the car much quicker in stop/go

situations. In regard to drivability, there are ZERO adverse effects. The

car will run/drive exactly how it does right now. The difference being the

instant torque/power you will feel if you get into the throttle at all.

The TVS 2300 is the best bang for the buck for a 2010 Camaro.

This is coming from the shop that put my cam in and knows my car, so I figure the cam will be ok, not really a big cam either, makes 450 rwhp now.

Thought?

All you did was change the cam and pick up power to 450?

The statement above is true - if all you wwant is 140 over stock then the Maggie is a great choice - but you can do that with the twin turbo set up as well with even less boost and it will look all original as well.

There are many convos going on all intertwined. What I see is 90% agree a TT system regardless of whose you purchase will make 600 rwhp very easily with no cam change and no headers or anything else but the bolt on kit for that matter

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by PQ

This is one of the things that is appealing to me. Drives very much like a stock system till you mash a little more, the power is instantly there.

Very appealing to me. I can't see myself needing to accelerate 100-140 mph that often, but I want to be able to make that guy in his stock Shelby think there is something wrong with his car from a stop light.

0-60 or 80 is what I'm interested in.

A stock Shelby GT500 will run side by side with a stock Camaro that has a simple bolt on Maggie - you need more than a simple bolt on blower

[Crowley]

Originally Posted by PQ

I'd love to hear the reason from someone who could explain how they got the lag out. Seems to me, that because there is minimal 'blow' from the exhaust on launch, how then does it give you SC type instant power until it can build flow?

If you size the turbos right u will have minimal lag. Too large of a turbo and there will be some lag. Good example of no lag is the BMW bi turbo 3.0L. Very small turbos and no lag at all. The problem is that you could max those out pretty quick.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Crowley

If you size the turbos right u will have minimal lag. Too large of a turbo and there will be some lag. Good example of no lag is the BMW bi turbo 3.0L. Very small turbos and no lag at all. The problem is that you could max those out pretty quick.

My kid drives the bi turbo x6 with the big V8. It has no lag in auto trans mode. When you convert over to SMG (sequentail manual gearing), upshift to like 4th gear at like 30 mph and then stand on it, it has 3 psi by 2500 on its way to 7.5 psi at 3200 to 6200 rpm - so again that is not realy lag

[Dr Jkel]

Originally Posted by Granatelli

All you did was change the cam and pick up power to 450?

The statement above is true - if all you wwant is 140 over stock then the Maggie is a great choice - but you can do that with the twin turbo set up as well with even less boost and it will look all original as well.

There are many convos going on all intertwined. What I see is 90% agree a TT system regardless of whose you purchase will make 600 rwhp very easily with no cam change and no headers or anything else but the bolt on kit for that matter

What I did exactly was headers, cam, cai, underdrive pulley and a tune.

The more I read this thread the more I am confused. I THINK that turbo's make power from exhaust and maggies make it from intake. I am not sure which one is better.

I was told that I would make almost 600 rwhp if I added a TVS 2300 and that 600 rwhp is a relatively safe number on stock internals for this car.

While I know it probably is not the same, my truck has a turbo and while it has power and great torque for pulling it seems to sorta lag when pulling, but it isn't made for speed and gets the job done.

I guess in my case I am looking to add as much power safely to my car that will give me longevity so to speak, drivabilty but be there when I want to make some other guy think something is wrong with his car.

I have seen a twin turbo in action that eats everyones lunch and yes it's a ricer and front wheel drive, those things make great power and if you are not careful you will get embarrassed by this one, that is mostly a strip car but he does run it around town occassionaly.

My car is fast, to me, right now but the TVS 2300 seemed like a great way to add some more power with little risk, from what I am being told 600 is safe power? Thoughts

[jrpxxii]

I think for 95% of the people on this forum, the TVS2300 fits their exact desires. The maggie is the best STREET FI kit out there and reliability cant be beat. The TVS2300 should have come on these cars from the beginning as it completely changes the car and it does it in a HUGELY positive way. Again, it all goes back to what each individual really wants. All of the turbo kits available are great and produce huge power. I personally had the TVS2300 on my car and loved it until I wanted to start making BIG power and the TVS2300 just isnt made to run at its max rated numbers. It is great for the guy or gal wanting an awesome 600hp street ride but like me I was pushing the maggie to its 900hp rating and it falls flat and is too much torque off the bottom end making it difficult to hook up. I am now going for BIG HP and I decided to go with the
F1-R to accomplish this. I talked with alot of the TT guys and they are great as well, but in the end, the F1-R fits my application better as well as my budget. Any kit you decide to go with will be a huge improvement for the FUN factor and if you are looking for the 600hp range, than you will have no worries with any FI setup as that is a super safe level for the Camaro.

[ipimpthisc]

Originally Posted by jrpxxii

I think for 95% of the people on this forum, the TVS2300 fits their exact desires. The maggie is the best STREET FI kit out there and reliability cant be beat. The TVS2300 should have come on these cars from the beginning as it completely changes the car and it does it in a HUGELY positive way. Again, it all goes back to what each individual really wants. All of the turbo kits available are great and produce huge power. I personally had the TVS2300 on my car and loved it until I wanted to start making BIG power and the TVS2300 just isnt made to run at its max rated numbers. It is great for the guy or gal wanting an awesome 600hp street ride but like me I was pushing the maggie to its 900hp rating and it falls flat and is too much torque off the bottom end making it difficult to hook up. I am now going for BIG HP and I decided to go with the
F1-R to accomplish this. I talked with alot of the TT guys and they are great as well, but in the end, the F1-R fits my application better as well as my budget. Any kit you decide to go with will be a huge improvement for the FUN factor and if you are looking for the 600hp range, than you will have no worries with any FI setup as that is a super safe level for the Camaro.

I think u hit the nail on the head....all this power suits just about all of us, unless ur into the extreme competition or need for power, and have wads of money..cause pimpin aint eazzzay

[jrpxxii]

Originally Posted by ipimpthisc

I think u hit the nail on the head....all this power suits just about all of us, unless ur into the extreme competition or need for power, and have wads of money..cause pimpin aint eazzzay

Too funny....love it

[Dr Jkel]

Originally Posted by jrpxxii

I think for 95% of the people on this forum, the TVS2300 fits their exact desires. The maggie is the best STREET FI kit out there and reliability cant be beat. The TVS2300 should have come on these cars from the beginning as it completely changes the car and it does it in a HUGELY positive way. Again, it all goes back to what each individual really wants. All of the turbo kits available are great and produce huge power. I personally had the TVS2300 on my car and loved it until I wanted to start making BIG power and the TVS2300 just isnt made to run at its max rated numbers. It is great for the guy or gal wanting an awesome 600hp street ride but like me I was pushing the maggie to its 900hp rating and it falls flat and is too much torque off the bottom end making it difficult to hook up. I am now going for BIG HP and I decided to go with the
F1-R to accomplish this. I talked with alot of the TT guys and they are great as well, but in the end, the F1-R fits my application better as well as my budget. Any kit you decide to go with will be a huge improvement for the FUN factor and if you are looking for the 600hp range, than you will have no worries with any FI setup as that is a super safe level for the Camaro.

I really appreciate the info on this. I have been thinking about it for awhile and trying to decide is tough. Vnedors usually tell you what you want to hear because they just want to sell something.

Torque is what really sets you in your seat and most people don't drive over 80 even when doing a little street light to street light thing. For me this will be for the guy in his little Mustang with some headers and exhaust that will come up beside you and rev his motor, which is not alot but it's nice to have when needed.

This will not be my daily driver, but mostly for cruises and shows. I love the car and do take it on longer trips just because of the wow factor it has.

From all I know and have read 600 is just about the max hp you can run safely on this car without internal mods, Correct?


I am prorbaly looking for more realiability and "Good" usabable hp. 850 is not good if it can't be put to the ground. While I am sure that it can be with aloy of mods I am unwilling to go that far.

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

What I did exactly was headers, cam, cai, underdrive pulley and a tune.

That makes sense

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

The more I read this thread the more I am confused. I THINK that turbo's make power from exhaust and maggies make it from intake. I am not sure which one is better.

Look at it like this, I turbo is like a centrifugal blower – they both work the same way – however the turbo uses exhaust flow to spin one impeller that is connected to another that suck air in and then forces it out – into the engine. The centrifugal blower, like a Paxton or Vortech, works the same way but instead of exhaust turning it, a belt off the crank turns it and then the impeller thing works the same way. A centrifugal needs eng RPM to accelerate the impeller and that is why the boost is linear. A Maggie style blower is kinda like a cross over – it is belt driven and uses engine RPM to accelerate it but rather than using an impeller it had lobes like scoops that crank (or screw) the air into the intake. The end result is more air gets forced into the engine. We can talk for hours about which one is better. Anyone of them will make 600hp all day. The turbos will do it will less stress on the crankshaft – But again were are talking 600hp not 1000

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

I was told that I would make almost 600 rwhp if I added a TVS 2300 and that 600 rwhp is a relatively safe number on stock internals for this car.

Agreed. But 600 rwhp is still like 700 crank – If you drive it like it is stolen then 700 crank is a lot –

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

While I know it probably is not the same, my truck has a turbo and while it has power and great torque for pulling it seems to sorta lag when pulling, but it isn't made for speed and gets the job done.

Sounds like a diesel. That is tough to compare to. This motors work in different ways. Diesels are all about load - the more load the more boost. Reason why it “feels like lag” is lack of HP. It is designed to make tons of low end and mileage not HP

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

I guess in my case I am looking to add as much power safely to my car that will give me longevity so to speak, drivability but be there when I want to make some other guy think something is wrong with his car.

And that is where it get super objective. The turbos can do that with less required boost and more stealth. The Maggie can do it with more flash under the hood, more required boost to get there and a little bit of blower whine. The trend is to go cog on the rear drive of the Maggie and that adds to the blower whine even more.

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

I have seen a twin turbo in action that eats everyone’s lunch and yes it's a ricer and front wheel drive, those things make great power and if you are not careful you will get embarrassed by this one, that is mostly a strip car but he does run it around town occasionally.

Got that but the V8 with twins is way more responsive and less RPM dependant than a ricer.

Originally Posted by Dr Jekel

My car is fast, to me, right now but the TVS 2300 seemed like a great way to add some more power with little risk, from what I am being told 600 is safe power? Thoughts

If you already have headers and 450 RWHP – the Maggie is only 7 psi away from your goal – sounds like you made up your mind

[ipimpthisc]

I WANNA WHOOSH, AND THAT JET ENGINE WHINE....ALL WHILE I SMOKE TIRES AT 100 MPH, SWITCHING 4 LANES

[jrpxxii]

I let you take a ride in my car and see if you still feel that way. Smoking tires across 4 lanes at 100mph really isnt that much fun......of course it wasnt intentional either.....LOL

[Granatelli]

Originally Posted by jrpxxii

All of the turbo kits available are great and produce huge power. I personally had the TVS2300 on my car and loved it until I wanted to start making BIG power and the TVS2300 just isnt made to run at its max rated numbers. .

well said

Originally Posted by jrpxxii

I am now going for BIG HP and I decided to go with the F1-R to accomplish this .

Well based on your requirements it sound like a great choice for you. The Procharger will make less torque down low for sure - But look at it like this, An F1-R is "like" a belt driven turbo. But the Turbo won't need the belt to spin up.

My take, The Procharger says, I am here HEAR ME ROAR! The turbo is calm, cool and collected. It will just sit there sleathy like until it is time to attack - then it will make mega power if asked or just a little if kept on it leash. Best of all it can do all this with no loud headers, pulley change requirements or rearranging on all the accessories

I talked with alot of the TT guys and they are great as well, but in the end, the F1-R fits my application better as well as my budget. Any kit you decide to go with will be a huge improvement for the FUN factor and if you are looking for the 600hp range, than you will have no worries with any FI setup as that is a super safe level for the Camaro.[/QUOTE]