Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack

Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack Discuss issues related to wheels and tires

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-13-2008, 12:15 PM   #1
1_2Many

 
1_2Many's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Suzuki SX4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 786
Question Lighter wheels = much faster?

According to Centerline's website removing 1 lb of rotating mass is equivelent to removing 8 lbs of vehicle mass. The 20" wheels on the SS model Camaro look like no light weights and I could see them weighing 30 lbs or more each. I know there are large racing wheels out there that weigh around 15 lbs.

So theoretically you could reduce your rotating mass 60 lbs which multiplied 8X equals 480 lbs.

If that is really true then I will definitely be swapping out my big heavy rims for some racing style (i.e. Z06, BBS) wheels.

Oh and for reference:
http://centerlinewheels.com/faq.php#benefits

"Q: What are the benefits of Center Line's rotary forged wheel vs. a cast wheel?
A: 1. WEIGHT: The most significant benefit is weight. For your front-wheel drive car, we manufacture 15" wheels weighing approximately 13 lbs. For your truck or SUV, we manufacture 20" wheels weighing approximately 23 lbs (the same weight as a 17" cast aluminum factory wheel!). See the next question for info on the benefits of a lightweight wheel.
2. POLISH: Due to the density of the grain structure, the polished forged wheel will maintain its luster for much longer than a polished cast wheel which is very porous.
back to top


Q: Why is the weight of wheels important?
A: Wheels are rotating mass/unsprung weight. Every 1 lb reduction in rotating mass is equivalent to an approximately 8 lb reduction in static weight. With lighter weight wheels, you will benefit from increased fuel savings, quicker braking, improved tire wear and better acceleration. Always ask about the weight of wheels. Your vehicle is not engineered for heavy wheels. Therefore, it will not perform well if you effectively put four anchors on it! "
__________________
We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
1_2Many is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:16 PM   #2
zebra
just can't seem to leave
 
zebra's Avatar
 
Drives: your mom wild!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: cold & windy
Posts: 11,604
they say every 100lbs shaves .1sec on the quarter-mile
__________________
zebra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:17 PM   #3
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
Sounds logical. This is why they make light weight flywheels, aluminum drive shafts. Weight issues with rims were a huge deal in drag racing. This is when we cam about the magnesium rim. It was great....unitl it caught fire that is. As far as I know you still cant have magnisum rims on a track.
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:17 PM   #4
The_Blur
Jayhawk USN
 
The_Blur's Avatar
 
Drives: 6.2L of AWESOME! 2011 L99 2SS
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NAS Whiting Field
Posts: 14,306
Send a message via AIM to The_Blur
Can we get some comparative track times or scientific proof. I want to quantify the truth of these arguments. I agree that you can get a substantial difference based on the wheels. I just wonder if these estimates are accurate.

On a side note, this is a great resource for people to choose lightweight wheels.
The_Blur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:24 PM   #5
1_2Many

 
1_2Many's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Suzuki SX4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 786
My father designed a magnesium racing wheel back in the 70's called a Kimtab wheel. They used them on motorcycles and even BMX for a while. I've been trying to convince him to modify the design for automobiles. Our company specializes in magnesium. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be allowed at the strip...most cars today have magnesium bulkheads behind the dashboard and hell VW Beetle engine's have mag blocks. The old Haliburton wheels that are still popular on Gassers and rods are magnesium.
__________________
We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
1_2Many is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:35 PM   #6
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_2Many View Post
My father designed a magnesium racing wheel back in the 70's called a Kimtab wheel. They used them on motorcycles and even BMX for a while. I've been trying to convince him to modify the design for automobiles. Our company specializes in magnesium. I'm not sure why they wouldn't be allowed at the strip...most cars today have magnesium bulkheads behind the dashboard and hell VW Beetle engine's have mag blocks. The old Haliburton wheels that are still popular on Gassers and rods are magnesium.

I think it has somthing to do with them not bieng able to put them out when they catch fire. Let me do some homework on this
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:42 PM   #7
headpunter
Not That sad..considering
 
headpunter's Avatar
 
Drives: Man
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: the part of washington the capital forgot about.
Posts: 3,784
Send a message via AIM to headpunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldave24v View Post
I think it has somthing to do with them not bieng able to put them out when they catch fire. Let me do some homework on this
blocks of magnesium dont catch fire
__________________
headpunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 12:51 PM   #8
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
Actually........

Magnesium is a highly flammable metal, but while it is easy to ignite when powdered or shaved into thin strips, it is difficult to ignite in mass or bulk. Once ignited, it is difficult to extinguish, being able to burn in both nitrogen (forming magnesium nitride), and carbon dioxide (forming magnesium oxide and carbon). On burning in air, magnesium produces a brilliant white light. Thus magnesium powder (flash powder) was used as a source of illumination in the early days of photography. Later, magnesium ribbon was used in electrically ignited flash bulbs. Magnesium powder is used in the manufacture of fireworks and marine flares where a brilliant white light is required.
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:07 PM   #9
1_2Many

 
1_2Many's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Suzuki SX4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 786
Nice Wikipedia copy/paste there, but seriously people. Magnesium is what I do. I have been around it my whole life, it's part of the family business.

headpunter: true, blocks of magnesium don't spontaneously catch fire, BUT that doesn't mean you can't light one. Try telling that to the people at competition hill (Glamis) who light a VW block on fire for night illumination every year. I've seen it with my own eyes.

And the rumor that Magnesium is difficult to extinguish? Well yes if you try and use water, but no if you use a chemical extinguisher or better yet....sand, concrete mix, dirt or anything else that can smother the fire.

We have small Magnesium fires at my work often and we simply either push the part outside and let it burn or pour concrete dust on it. We also have giant chemical extinguishers, but after 20 years at this facility we've never had to use them.

On the other hand my father lost a friend in a horrible magnesium fire back in the day...it was the metal mill that had not been cleaning the walls so over the years magnesium dust had covered all the walls and ceilings....one day an electrical short caused a spark that lit the whole place up like one giant flash bulb. It was so quick that many didn't have a chance to escape. The fire burned so hot that the giant 10 X 20" wooden beams across roof charred a solid carbon shield around themselves and the firemen claimed this saved the structure from collapsing.
__________________
We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
1_2Many is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:11 PM   #10
LSxJunkie
Snark snark snark
 
LSxJunkie's Avatar
 
Drives: RX350
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 3L Hell
Posts: 556
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Can we get some comparative track times or scientific proof. I want to quantify the truth of these arguments. I agree that you can get a substantial difference based on the wheels. I just wonder if these estimates are accurate.

On a side note, this is a great resource for people to choose lightweight wheels.
Lightweight wheels. For me, it's all about the handling. Unspring mass, rotating mass, it all comes into play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by headpunter View Post
blocks of magnesium dont catch fire
o rly?


__________________
What is this, CorvetteForum Lite?
LSxJunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:14 PM   #11
headpunter
Not That sad..considering
 
headpunter's Avatar
 
Drives: Man
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: the part of washington the capital forgot about.
Posts: 3,784
Send a message via AIM to headpunter
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSxJunkie View Post
Lightweight wheels. For me, it's all about the handling. Unspring mass, rotating mass, it all comes into play.



o rly?


looks like shavings to me.
__________________
headpunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:16 PM   #12
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1_2Many View Post
Nice Wikipedia copy/paste there, but seriously people. Magnesium is what I do. I have been around it my whole life, it's part of the family business.

headpunter: true, blocks of magnesium don't spontaneously catch fire, BUT that doesn't mean you can't light one. Try telling that to the people at competition hill (Glamis) who light a VW block on fire for night illumination every year. I've seen it with my own eyes.

And the rumor that Magnesium is difficult to extinguish? Well yes if you try and use water, but no if you use a chemical extinguisher or better yet....sand, concrete mix, dirt or anything else that can smother the fire.

We have small Magnesium fires at my work often and we simply either push the part outside and let it burn or pour concrete dust on it. We also have giant chemical extinguishers, but after 20 years at this facility we've never had to use them.

On the other hand my father lost a friend in a horrible magnesium fire back in the day...it was the metal mill that had not been cleaning the walls so over the years magnesium dust had covered all the walls and ceilings....one day an electrical short caused a spark that lit the whole place up like one giant flash bulb. It was so quick that many didn't have a chance to escape. The fire burned so hot that the giant 10 X 20" wooden beams across roof charred a solid carbon shield around themselves and the firemen claimed this saved the structure from collapsing.
So in your expertice.....Is it safe to assume that maybe an issue could be created with a high speed tire blow out. What I am getting at is a car going down a track...or the street and for whatever reason they have a blow out. The rim scraping on the street would create sparks right? Then you would have powdered magnezium flying through sparks. Could this be a problem????
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:43 PM   #13
1_2Many

 
1_2Many's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Suzuki SX4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 786
No this would not be a problem because in order for the entire rim to catch fire it would have to have concentrated heat on one section. The sparks flying off would instantly burn themselves out.

The way sparks start fires in my business is only if the machinist does not clean his area and sparks land in a pile of light chips which causes a chain reaction. The thick mass of a magnesium wheel cannot be lit with anything except the long exposure from the flame of other magnesium.

As an example you can look up lowriders that throw sparks out...they most often use magnesium blocks mounted under the car to get such large sparks, but the spark is too brief to ignite anything on the car.
__________________
We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
1_2Many is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #14
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
intresting...I guess you really do learn somthing everyday.
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 02:15 PM   #15
rolnslo
Rolling along...
 
rolnslo's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS SGM
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 4,319
Interesting...

rolnslo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 02:42 PM   #16
Dan
 
Dan's Avatar
 
Drives: 2004 GTO
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Montgomery, AL
Posts: 448
The rule I had always heard was 1 lb of rotating mass = 6, not 8, lbs.
Dan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 03:05 PM   #17
Chewy
My boredom isn't safe
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,254
Send a message via AIM to Chewy Send a message via MSN to Chewy
depending what the bolt pattern is (5x120), might be able to use BBS which are very popular on BMWs, 22-23lbs

the only downside i find with lightweights, such as magnesium, is that its a soft metal and you can dent your rims very easily.


my input into the off topic section - magnesium blocks disperse heat too quickly to ignite very easily, blow torch a corner for 10minutes it won't work, but u set the entire block in a small (and lower temp) fire place and i guarantee it'll ignite, i've done it twice. So i really wouldn't worry about your wheels igniting unless your brakes, tires, and car are all also on fire. we have magnesium braking components on the aircraft i fly on - brakes and calipers get a LOT hotter than your wheel ever should
__________________
Chewy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 03:20 PM   #18
Mr Twisty


 
Mr Twisty's Avatar
 
Drives: the 2nd amendment home
Join Date: May 2008
Location: OK
Posts: 14,388
Fires are thermite reaction maybe?
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Great Racing Quotes

"Never run out of real estate, traction and ideas at the same time."
"I was doing fine until about mid-corner when I ran out of talent."
"Don't brake until you see God, just don't meet him"
Mr Twisty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 03:51 PM   #19
andyrew
 
andyrew's Avatar
 
Drives: Audi A4 STG3, Porsche 914 v8
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Modesto, ca
Posts: 126
Why do you think the Camaro race car concept has such tiny wheels and tires?

Coming from a racer, It makes a BIG difference. I have 3 sets of wheels on my Audi, a set of 18's weighing 55lbs ea, a set of 16's with REo1-R's for racing weighing 51lbs, and a set of 15's with snow tires weighing 43lbs. I can tell a huge difference between the 3. In fact I pick up about 1- 2mpg going from the 18's to the 15's as well.
andyrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 03:53 PM   #20
dieseldave24v
PowerStroke this Ford boy
 
dieseldave24v's Avatar
 
Drives: Like Don Garlits "Big Daddy"
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Richlands/Camp Lejeune NC
Posts: 482
I was thinking that racers maight use differnt size wheels for a fast gear ration change. If the rim and the tire combo is smaller in diameter you would have a lower final drive ratio "to the pavment" By lower I mean numericaly higher.
dieseldave24v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 05:09 PM   #21
Mr Twisty


 
Mr Twisty's Avatar
 
Drives: the 2nd amendment home
Join Date: May 2008
Location: OK
Posts: 14,388
Is magnesium too brittle for wheel torque loads?
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Great Racing Quotes

"Never run out of real estate, traction and ideas at the same time."
"I was doing fine until about mid-corner when I ran out of talent."
"Don't brake until you see God, just don't meet him"
Mr Twisty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 05:13 PM   #22
GTAHVIT
Blessed
 
GTAHVIT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 Sonic RS MT
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Saint Augustine FL
Posts: 28,850
Magnesium is really strong. They use it for aircraft wheels and brakes. Good stuff.
GTAHVIT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 05:18 PM   #23
1_2Many

 
1_2Many's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 Suzuki SX4
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 786
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Is magnesium too brittle for wheel torque loads?

Some C5 Vette's have magnesium wheels and I know last gen Z06 did too. Not sure about current Vette's.
__________________
We are the early orderers...we are GM's voluntary guinea pigs and their free source of feedback. How will we be thanked?
1_2Many is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 05:23 PM   #24
andyrew
 
andyrew's Avatar
 
Drives: Audi A4 STG3, Porsche 914 v8
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Modesto, ca
Posts: 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieseldave24v View Post
I was thinking that racers maight use differnt size wheels for a fast gear ration change. If the rim and the tire combo is smaller in diameter you would have a lower final drive ratio "to the pavment" By lower I mean numericaly higher.
Its a side effect.

The real reason is because the closer the rotating mass is towards the center, the less work the drivetrain has to do to move it. You find this practiced a lot in low HP lightweight cars, such as the Miata.

For example, if you take a weight and attach it to a rope, then swing it while rotating 3 ft from your body. Then swing it 10 feet from your body. How fast are you able to move? How much work is it? Its the same weight right?

Thats the theory behind a smaller wheel/ or even a smaller tire diameter.
andyrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2008, 06:06 PM   #25
Chewy
My boredom isn't safe
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS Camaro
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,254
Send a message via AIM to Chewy Send a message via MSN to Chewy
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69 View Post
Is magnesium too brittle for wheel torque loads?
Magnesium far from brittle, it's much more likely it'll bend/dent

Quote:
Originally Posted by gtahvit View Post
Magnesium is really strong. They use it for aircraft wheels and brakes. Good stuff.
aircrafts such as the big ones flying over jax all the time
__________________
Chewy is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
New Camaro Power Wheels Toy daddyseth1 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 51 08-04-2010 08:04 PM
Will the 20" Wheels from the LS7 Camaro at SEMA be offered as an accessory? HotRodPilot Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack 20 02-08-2009 03:07 PM
Staggered wheels? blackZbandit Wheels and Tires Talk Sponsored by The Tire Rack 7 09-29-2008 08:47 PM
Cobalt Wheels stovt001 General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 6 09-07-2008 06:45 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.