Onstar....a spy???? please comment

[dieseldave24v]

SOUNDS LIKE BS TO ME WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Ever since the Model T hit the silver screen, evading the long arm of the law has been a cinematic theme. From the General Lee outrunning Boss Hogg, to Smokey being outwitted by Burt Reynolds' mustache, the public imagination has always associated fast cars with police pursuit. While the majority of motorists would never dream of trying to outrun the long arm of the law, soon, they won't have to. It'll be resting on their shoulder. Consider OnStar…

OnStar is a telemetry system providing a central data bank with real-time data on virtually every system in your car, including GPS. OnStar's computer knows where you were, when you were there, and how fast you went. It knows if and when you applied the brakes, if and when the air bags deployed, and what speed you were going at the time. It knows if and when your car was serviced.

OnStar operators can determine if you have a passenger in the front seat (airbag detection). All interactions with OnStar's operators are automatically recorded (hence the commercials). By the same token, under certain conditions, OnStar can switch on your GM car's microphone remotely and record any and all sounds within the vehicle (i.e. conversations). But wait, there's more…

As of 2009, customers who upgrade to OnStar's "Safe & Sound" plan automatically receive the "Stolen Vehicle Slowdown" service. (Yes, it's an "opt out" deal.) If the OnStar-equipped vehicle is reported stolen and law enforcement has "established a clear line of sight of the stolen vehicle," the police may ask OnStar to slow it down remotely.

Many customers find OnStar immensely reassuring; their guardian e-angel. No question: OnStar has saved lives and provided its customers with valuable services. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business. But what if…

The police are investigating a crime. They ask OnStar where your car was on a certain date and time, to corroborate an alibi. Or what if you're in a crash and the other guy's attorney would like to know how fast you were driving when you ran the red light? Would OnStar surrender the information? "OnStar is required to locate the car to comply with legal requirements, including valid court orders showing probable cause in criminal investigations." And OnStar may use gathered information to "protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others."

Imagine the following scenario. The FBI shows up at OnStar master command and tells them your car's been stolen by a terrorist, who may be using it to commit a crime at this very moment. Contacting the owner is out of the question; the owner may also be a terrorist. What does OnStar do? They cooperate with the FBI and give them everything they've got on your car. No warrant needed and no notification to you. Hell, you may not even have the service enabled.

In other words, you not only have to trust OnStar to protect your privacy, you have to trust the police not to ask the questions in the first place.

The Constitution of the United States protects us from the heavy hand of government. However, when it comes to protection from private entities, it does little. Into this void, multiple privacy laws have entered, creating a farrago of local, state, and federal laws which provide limited and haphazard protection to citizens. Whatever privacy protection these laws provide are usually nullified when companies violate them in "good faith" (e.g. while assisting the authorities.)

So who is going to stop the government from monitoring your car? The Bill of Rights protects you from an unreasonable search and seizure; the government can not take what belongs to you without a warrant. OnStar can owns the information they collect about your car. In short, there is nothing to stop the police or OnStar from using the information you paid for against you.

And the next step is even more insidious. Imagine GPS speed limiters which only allow you to go the speed limit based upon a map uploaded into your car's navigation system. Now Sammy Hagar will only be driving 55 no matter how hard he stomps on the go pedal. This is the ultimate assault on pistonheads. The only place where driving will be fun will be on the track– if OnStar and/or the car's manufacturer (e.g. the Japanese GT-R) let you.

There's only one sensible response to this trend: boycott vehicles equipped with OnStar, even if you don't sign up for the service. (Remember: it can be remotely enabled.) If customers actively avoid vehicles that spy on them, manufacturers will have to stop installing the monitoring software and hardware. And law enforcement agencies and prosecutors will have to get their information and apprehend criminals the old-fashioned way: through legally-sanctioned police work. In short, I don't buy OnStar, and neither should you.

[TheClassicCarKid]

Don't run red lights or use your camaro for a car bomb. problem solved.

[Matrix]

Haha, there is no doubt that onstar has saved some lives but overall I think this is Big Brother at work. Wait till we all have to have a chip in our wrists just to trade or purchase stuff. Its coming, dont deny it!!! Im not digging the idea of Big Brother at all!!

[zebra]

that's why i'm entering RPO code UE0. it deletes the OnStar equipment

[dieseldave24v]

Originally Posted by zebra

that's why i'm entering RPO code UE0. it deletes the OnStar equipment

Is that a fact? If so do you get a rebate?

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Matrix

Haha, there is no doubt that onstar has saved some lives but overall I think this is Big Brother at work. Wait till we all have to have a chip in our wrists just to trade or purchase stuff. Its coming, dont deny it!!! Im not digging the idea of Big Brother at all!!

What is this ridiculous picture—some sort of Jews controlling American conspiracy? Don't promote that nonsense here.

Seriously, if you're hiding from the government, then you're probably doing something wrong. I don't like the idea of government spying on civilians. OnStar should require a warrant for any such activity to protect the rights of citizens.

[zebra]

Originally Posted by dieseldave24v

Is that a fact? If so do you get a rebate?

member 99b4c mentioned being able to order it on 09 models in this thread. i would imagine it will still work. rebate? no clue.

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

What is this ridiculous picture—some sort of Jews controlling American conspiracy? Don't promote that nonsense here.

Seriously, if you're hiding from the government, then you're probably doing something wrong. I don't like the idea of government spying on civilians. OnStar should require a warrant for any such activity to protect the rights of citizens.

Cool your jets The_Blur!

Firstly, Im not promoting anything, but do believe the BBrother sly tactics are at play here, and will subtly enter into our lives almost stealth like.

Second I hide from no one and I try to do no wrong!!

I, like you, want to protect my rights as a citizen. But people need to get educate themselves about whats going on.

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Matrix

Cool your jets The_Blur!

Firstly, Im not promoting anything, but do believe the BBrother sly tactics are at play here, and will subtly enter into our lives almost stealth like.

Second I hide from no one and I try to do no wrong!!

I, like you, want to protect my rights as a citizen. But people need to get educate themselves about whats going on.

Citizens need to know their rights and some of the technology that can be used against them. It's scary sometimes.

I'm very sensitive to stereotyping and scapegoating. It tends to create unnecessary conflict. I don't like associating a whole group of people with something, like a conspiracy. When I saw the Star of David in association with the symbols on the dollar, I thought, "That's a stretch!"

[Mr Twisty]

It's plausible but not practical. They don't monitor your car every moment. Imagine the computing power needed to store that much data! And no your cars computer does not store GPS information.

[Mr. Wyndham]

hehehe...spies....

No worries here. Even if this is some sort of grand conspiracy...OnStar is too valuable to me: I won't jeopardize mine + my families safety (or potential safety...) because I'm afraid the government's watching me....

*dons tin-foil hat*

[pinkcamaro10]

I really don't plan on doing anything illegal in my car besides going a few over the speed limit.

But for others that drink and drive, or a hit and run, or put bombs in thier cars, kill myself or a friend i think onstar should beable to tell the police how fast the car was going, and where it was, where it went. etc.

[Mindz]

and I thought my conspiracy theories were bunk.

Also what's with the star of david? I'm with blur on this one...an explanation please sir.

[Matrix]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

Citizens need to know their rights and some of the technology that can be used against them. It's scary sometimes.

I'm very sensitive to stereotyping and scapegoating. It tends to create unnecessary conflict. I don't like associating a whole group of people with something, like a conspiracy. When I saw the Star of David in association with the symbols on the dollar, I thought, "That's a stretch!"

No problem The_Blur. If you do some research into the pic, its actually about the Illuminati. You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes!

[Sterling]

It was a reference to conspiracy theories involving the Freemasons.
You find that pattern all over major cities like Washington DC.
Didn't you watch National Treasure?

[MLL67RSSS]

Just out of curiosity do any of you that worry about On-Star have cell phones? Did a little story on the local news the other night, VERY eye-opening. You may just want to google "cell phone spying" or visit a site like this:

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2008/05/...ing-monitored/

Especially the part where they can listen in on your private conversations even when you're not on the phone. There has already been a case where law enforcement activated a suspected drug dealers cell phone microphone and monitored his conversations in order to bust him with the goods.

There has also already been a case where they busted a kid for doing donuts and trashing a soccer field in his Dad's Denali when they got (with a warrant) the On-Star records.

I'd worry more about the cell phone thing if I had one. Seems it is quite easy to monitor someone that way.

[Angrybird 12]

STOP USING THE INTERNET! STOP USING ALL TELEPHONES! STOP DRIVING IN AREAS THAT HAVE CAMERAS SET UP! STOP GOING TO STORES THAT HAVE SECURITY CAMERAS! DON"T LEAVE YOUR HOUSE OR TALK TO ANYONE!


Get a life and stop being so Paranoid..... I would hate to be someone that worried all the time about someone spying on them, the only ones needing to worry are the ones that have something to hide. If you screw up and have an accident and you were speeding, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS, don't try to blame someone because of your stupidity...

OnStar® Privacy Statement
Effective as of July 2007

OnStar Services include a broad and evolving array of safety, security, convenience and communications services that are delivered using on-board car electronics, wireless telecommunication technologies, the internet and global positioning satellite location information. This Privacy Statement describes how we collect, use and share personal and car specific information that OnStar obtains in connection with services provided to customers in the United States. These privacy practices apply to past, current, and potential future customers as well as any others who may be involved in an OnStar service event.

Current customers and any other users of OnStar Services are subject to our present Terms and Conditions. Click here to view.

Privacy Inquiries
If you have a question regarding this privacy statement or a concern about our privacy practices, please refer to the Frequently Asked Questions at the end of this document, contact us via email at PrivacyManager@onstar.com, call 1.888.4.ONSTAR (1.888.466.7827) or TTY 1.877.248.2080 or write us at P.O. Box 0217, Troy, Michigan 48099-0217. Email responses and letter replies will be sent within three business days of receipt.

Table of Contents
Collection & Use of Personal and Car Information
Collection of Information
Use of Your Information
Information Sharing
Additional OnStar Services Information
Call Recording
Security of Your Personal Information
Personal Identification Number (PIN)
Control of Your Personal Information
Changes to the OnStar Privacy Statement
Frequently Asked Questions

Collection and Use of Personal and Car Information

Collection of Information

OnStar may collect information about you or your car several different ways: from what you, your car dealer and car maker provide to us when you register for any OnStar service or buy or lease your car; from your use of the services; from OnStar web pages you visit; from calls or emails between us; from our wireless service providers; and your satellite radio providers; and from your car itself when your OnStar equipment is active.

The information we may get about you includes things such as contact information (such as name, mailing address, email address, phone number and language preference and whether you are deaf or hard of hearing); credit card and billing information (such as cardholder name, card number and subscription package and OnStar Hands-Free Calling minute purchases); and other personal information that helps us customize our services, such as your requests for emergency assistance or driving directions.

The information we may get from your car includes things such as data about its operation (such as diagnostic trouble codes, oil life remaining, and odometer readings), about your use of OnStar services, about where your car is just before and during requests for location information or OnStar services that involve a wireless connection to your car, and (depending on your OnStar Equipment) data about accidents involving your car (for example, the direction from which your car was hit and which air bags have deployed). If you enroll in the OnStar Vehicle Diagnostic service, we will collect information from your car on a periodic basis.

OnStar only knows where your car is when a user or subscriber initiates a request for service, there is an Air Bag Deployment, an Automatic Crash Response occurs, or OnStar is required to locate the car to comply with legal requirements, including valid court orders showing probable cause in criminal investigations.

Use of Your Information

OnStar may use your information to: (a) provide OnStar services to you, your car or managers of fleets of cars (including sharing that information with roadside assistance providers, emergency service providers, or others, as needed); (b) communicate with you about your account (c) check or maintain your OnStar Equipment; (d) provide information to the maker of your car about the car's performance, about aggregate product usage, and to enable the maker of your car to comply with law; (e) help you or managers of fleets of cars (if your car is part of a fleet) to maintain the car, via data such as oil life, odometer and diagnostic trouble code information; (f) provide information to your rental car company for the purposes of providing OnStar services requested by you and to enable them to bill you for those services; (g) evaluate and improve our service; (h) enforce the OnStar Service Terms and Conditions with you or others; (i) prevent fraud or misuse of OnStar service; (j) comply with legal requirements, including valid court orders showing probable cause in criminal investigations in; (k) protect the rights, property, or safety of you or others; (l) offer you new or additional products or services; (m) confirm your eligibility in car insurance discount programs you've applied for; (n) perform market research; or (o) provide you with information about the maintenance needs of your car (if you are enrolled in the OnStar Vehicle Diagnostic service). We may communicate with you about your OnStar service by providing you with messages through the OnStar system in your car.

Information Sharing

OnStar may share your email address, including any email address collected through the OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics Program, with the maker of your car and its subsidiaries and affiliates.

OnStar may also share your other contact information, information about your current OnStar services, your car's Vehicle Identification Number (VIN), and information about the use of your car's features with: (i) the maker of your car (and its subsidiaries and affiliates); (ii) car dealers; (iii) your satellite radio providers; and (iv) our wireless service providers, for the purposes of offering you products and services.

Your OnStar subscription status may be shared with companies with whom we have business relationships to determine eligibility in discount programs you have requested from those companies. Your information may also be shared with our suppliers for the exclusive purpose of providing services for us. OnStar will not share any information with other third parties for their independent use without your permission.

Additional OnStar Services Information

Hands-Free Calling

The OnStar equipment maintains a balance of the remaining number of Hands-Free Calling minutes in your car.

If you purchase a new car, your OnStar equipment will automatically call OnStar to perform a cellular validation of your system. If you received Hands-Free Calling minutes when you purchased your car (or activated or renewed your account), the OnStar equipment in your car may automatically call OnStar to let us know if you have used any of these minutes. If you have not, we may send you a reminder so you can take advantage of these minutes before they expire.

OnStar cannot listen to, view, or record the content of calls made using Hands-Free Calling.

Should you choose to use Hands-Free Calling to dial 911 in an emergency situation rather than contacting OnStar and your car contains certain OnStar equipment, the location of your car at the time the call was made may be provided to the public safety or dispatch personnel who answer your call.

Nationwide Plan with OnStar®

Since participation in Verizon Wireless' Nationwide Plan with OnStar® program requires you to have an active OnStar subscription, it is necessary for us to check your subscription status and provide that information to Verizon so they may verify your eligibility for the program. We will also receive notice from Verizon that you joined Nationwide Plan with OnStar® so that we can make the appropriate changes within your OnStar account, including turning off your ability to purchase PrePaid Hands-Free Calling minute packages from us.

OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics

If you sign up for OnStar's Vehicle Diagnostics service, we will collect information from your car such as diagnostic trouble codes, oil life remaining, mileage, tire pressure, emissions data and Hands-Free Calling information and send you monthly e-mail communications regarding some of the maintenance needs of your car to the designated email address on file. These notices will continue until you contact us to stop the OnStar Vehicle Diagnostics service or your OnStar subscription ends. Should you sell (or otherwise get rid of) your car while the OnStar subscription is still active, you must contact us immediately so that we can discontinue the communication, mark your account appropriately and possibly transfer any remaining service to another OnStar-equipped car you may have. If you do not notify OnStar of a sale or transfer of your car, OnStar may continue to send OnStar Vehicle Diagnostic reports or other information about the car or the OnStar account to the billing or e-mail address currently on file with OnStar. In such case, OnStar is not responsible for any privacy related damages you may suffer. Your e-mail address will be used according to the descriptions in this Privacy Statement.

XM Satellite Radio

When your car is equipped with both OnStar and XM Satellite Radio, and you receive a complementary trial listening period for XM, the OnStar equipment in your car may automatically call OnStar to provide us the amount of time XM is used in your car. This information will be used to help improve the products and services that XM offers and to perform market research. OnStar will not collect data regarding the specific stations you have visited while listening to XM. XM maintains its own privacy statement. Click here to view the XM Satellite Radio Inc.'s privacy statement.

OnStar Websites

You may use OnStar's websites to learn about our services without disclosing any personal information. There are also several opportunities on our websites for you to provide us with information about you, such as your name, mailing address and e-mail address, to request information, enroll in promotional programs or renew or purchase additional OnStar services.

We may use "cookies" and other tracking devices on our websites. Using cookies on our sites provides benefits to you, such as allowing you to maintain your account login information between visits, or maintaining your session information, such as your car type. The use of cookies also allows us to measure site activity to provide a better user experience. Cookies and other tracking devices may be used to tell us the time and length of your visit, the pages you look at on our site, the site you visited just before coming to ours, and the name of your Internet service provider.

You may elect to refuse cookies. Please refer to your browser's Help instructions to learn more about cookies and how to manage their use.

Our sites may contain links to third party sites not controlled by OnStar or covered by this privacy statement. We recommend that you check the privacy statement of other sites you visit before providing any personal information.

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Call Recording

We'll record and monitor conversations by you or others from your car with us, with emergency service providers, or with the police to maintain or improve the quality of OnStar service, for training purposes, or to promote and provide OnStar service. Please note that our OnStar Advisors may also remain on the line if they conference in a third party, such as dealership personnel or hotel reservation centers, to assist in completing a service request. We may also randomly monitor your interactions with OnStar's automated services such as OnStar Virtual Advisor for quality improvement purposes. OnStar will not release any audio or physical records that are created as part of the OnStar service without a subpoena (unless otherwise required by law).
Security of Your Personal Information

OnStar provides service to your car through wireless networks. Although it is illegal for unauthorized people to intercept your calls, such interceptions of wireless communications can occur.

OnStar implements and maintains technical, physical, and administrative safeguards to help protect the security and confidentiality of customer information in OnStar's possession from theft, loss, misuse, improper distribution or alteration. Sensitive information, such as credit card information, is encrypted when submitted through our websites.

Personal Identification Number (PIN)

OnStar uses a Personal Identification Number, or PIN, to help identify authorized users of the service in certain situations. You will be asked for your four-digit PIN when requesting Remote Door Unlock, Stolen Vehicle Assistance, Remote Horn and Lights and some account maintenance services. You can change your PIN or add other authorized users of your car on to your account with their own PIN at any time by contacting an OnStar advisor from your car, calling 1.888.4.ONSTAR (1.888.466.7827) or TTY 1.877.248.2080. To inquire about a forgotten PIN contact us at the numbers above or email us at ContactUs@onstar.com or TTY@onstar.com to obtain your PIN by mail. OnStar will provide secured services to users who provide the correct PIN.

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Control of Your Personal Information

You may modify, correct, change, or update your contact information at any time by contacting an OnStar Advisor from your car, or calling 1.888.4ONSTAR (1.888.466.7827) or TTY 1.877.248.2080.

You may also contact us to be placed on our do-not-contact lists (mail, email and telephone) so you won't receive marketing materials from us. You will have to provide your OnStar PIN as verification before you are placed on the list. If you are a current OnStar subscriber on this list, you will still receive information about any safety and product recalls and notice regarding payment for or deactivation of your services. Once your name is restricted from contact, you will not receive future marketing offers from OnStar. However, if you contact us to request information about OnStar, you will receive information regarding your request, regardless of your contact status.

Click here to view our Do Not Call Policy.

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Changes to the OnStar Privacy Statement

We may change this statement at any time by posting a notice on the OnStar website. We encourage you to occasionally review this statement to better understand how OnStar is protecting your information.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Q: Does OnStar continuously monitor my car's location?
A: No, OnStar does not continuously or routinely monitor, update or otherwise track the location of OnStar-equipped cars. OnStar only knows the location of a car when a user initiates a request for service, there is an Air Bag Deployment, an Automatic Crash Response occurs, or OnStar is required to locate a car to comply with legal requirements, including valid court orders showing probable cause in criminal investigations. OnStar requires police involvement for Stolen Vehicle Assistance and missing person requests.
Q: If I am assigned as a primary driver of an OnStar-equipped car that is owned or leased by the company I work for, will you ever provide the location of that car to the company?
A: No, we do not provide the car's location to your company or to a fleet leasing company that may be managing your company's car fleet. OnStar only provides the location of a car to emergency service, roadside assistance or law enforcement personnel to assist in delivering services.

Q: If I drive a rental car equipped with OnStar, will you ever provide the location of my vehicle to the rental company?
A: OnStar will provide the location of a rental car to the rental company only if the location is vital to completing a driver's service request. For example, if you were involved in an accident where your rental car was no longer drivable and contacted OnStar, we would provide the rental car agency the location of the car so that they can send out the appropriate resources to pick up the damaged car and provide you with a new rental, if needed.

Q: Does OnStar monitor conversations in my car?
A: It is not possible for OnStar advisors to monitor car occupant conversations without notice to the occupants. When an advisor calls into your vehicle, a light flashes, there is a ring, and the radio mutes. Even if requested, it is not possible for OnStar to override this functionality. In addition, calls through the OnStar system are normally audible through the stereo speakers, and cars programmed with text display capabilities provide an indicator of a connection to OnStar on the driver's instrument panel. Moreover, OnStar's policy requires Advisors to announce their presence immediately upon establishing a call with the vehicle.
Q: What do you mean when you say "independent use" of personal information?
A: By independent use, we mean for purposes unrelated to the offering of products and services by OnStar, your car manufacturer (including its subsidiaries and affiliates) and dealers.

Q: Will you use my personal information to send me emails?
A: Yes, we may. If so, we will give you an opportunity to opt-out of receiving marketing emails in the future.

Q: Can I update my personal information?
A: Yes. Please contact an OnStar Advisor from your car, or call 1.888.4.ONSTAR (1.888.466.7827) or TTY 1.877.248.2080 to update your contact information maintained by OnStar.

Q: Does OnStar request or record highly sensitive personal information, like my social security number?
A: OnStar does not collect or record social security number, government driver's license number, bank account information (other than information required to process purchases), bank passwords or your mother's maiden name from our past, current or potential future customers. If you receive mail, an email message or a telephone call from someone requesting the above information as part of an OnStar transaction, do not provide this information. Obtain as much information as possible from the person making the request and contact OnStar immediately at 1.888.4.ONSTAR (1.888.466.7627) or TTY 1.877.248.2080.

Q: What is an example of a supplier that provides services to OnStar?
A: Suppliers are companies such as advertising and marketing agencies, which provide services on OnStar's behalf.

Q: Is OnStar the same thing as an Event Data Recorder, sometimes called a "Black Box?"
A: No, OnStar is not the same as an Event Data Recorder. However, OnStar will use some of the same information that is collected by the Event Data Recorder in the event of an Air Bag Deployment or Automatic Crash Response to help provide services to you.

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[GTAHVIT]

Interwebz is serious business.



Thanks Tim. Tell your son I say hey.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Great find, Tim.

[bcannan354]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

STOP USING THE INTERNET! STOP USING ALL TELEPHONES! STOP DRIVING IN AREAS THAT HAVE CAMERAS SET UP! STOP GOING TO STORES THAT HAVE SECURITY CAMERAS! DON"T LEAVE YOUR HOUSE OR TALK TO ANYONE!


Get a life and stop being so Paranoid..... I would hate to be someone that worried all the time about someone spying on them, the only ones needing to worry are the ones that have something to hide. If you screw up and have an accident and you were speeding, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS, don't try to blame someone because of your stupidity...

NUFF said, Thank you, AMEN

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

What is this ridiculous picture—some sort of Jews controlling American conspiracy? Don't promote that nonsense here.

Seriously, if you're hiding from the government, then you're probably doing something wrong. I don't like the idea of government spying on civilians. OnStar should require a warrant for any such activity to protect the rights of citizens.

Its a Freemason comment. If you look at the points of the triangles it spells out mason. Its well known that the founding fathers were freemasons. If you want to follow theories. It all goes back to the Knights Templar. Watch the movie National Treasure, Maybe the onstar will point you to buried treasure.


And for all of you who say you dont want big brother watching------ dont do anything illegal and you dont need to worry about it. Yeesh. Onstar is a good program. I have it.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by gtahvit

Interwebz is serious business.



Thanks Tim. Tell your son I say hey.

YW, and I'll tell him....

[The_Blur]

Originally Posted by Matrix

No problem The_Blur. If you do some research into the pic, its actually about the Illuminati. You have no idea how deep the rabbit hole goes!

The Star of David, historically, was the symbol of the Biblical King David ever since he found 2 triangular pieces of metal to protect himself in battle as a shield. It has been known to represent both fire and water or man and woman as a duality. The Jews use this as their primary symbol. It represents, to them, Israel at its prime, justice, and balance in the world. I'm sure there's more.

A lot of people seek out these sorts of symbols in society to explain conspiracy theories. The truth is that some shapes and signs are aesthetically pleasing, and the fact that a pyramid on the dollar looks anything like this could be a result of just looking nice. It's really hard to prove the reality of any such conspiracy.

[Sierra]

Originally Posted by The_Blur

The Star of David, historically, was the symbol of the Biblical King David ever since he found 2 triangular pieces of metal to protect himself in battle as a shield. It has been known to represent both fire and water or man and woman as a duality. The Jews use this as their primary symbol. It represents, to them, Israel at its prime, justice, and balance in the world. I'm sure there's more.

A lot of people seek out these sorts of symbols in society to explain conspiracy theories. The truth is that some shapes and signs are aesthetically pleasing, and the fact that a pyramid on the dollar looks anything like this could be a result of just looking nice. It's really hard to prove the reality of any such conspiracy.

Also considered a Templar symbol for male and female. the pointed up triangle the blade and the down pointing the chalice.

[GTAHVIT]

Back on topic please.