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Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

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Old 08-05-2010, 01:51 PM   #26
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The test should be really interesting.
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Old 08-05-2010, 02:05 PM   #27
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Pete,

thanks a ton for the invite...

I can't make it.. Very sorry.

Oh .... Just Remember, you were a GM guy first.....



But seriously.... lucky for you only Tran can Ban sponsors..... Just sayin...



Really seriously, Thanks again Pete for keeping us in the loop on this. Best of luck with the shootout.

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Old 08-05-2010, 09:11 PM   #28
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I am a GM guy. I have to admit I really want the Camaro to win. Having said that, I have done everything I can to make both cars as good as I can make them. We know from testing that the cars are almost identical in performance. Our driver is a race car driver and an engineer. He is also a GM fan boy just like the rest of us. That said, he will drive the wheels off both cars and hold nothing back. He can't as we know both cars are withing 2/100ths of a second the last times out.

We have tweaked the Mustang sway bar ratio a hair. We have tweaked the Mustang alignment a hair. It should be a bit faster.

We have replaced the intercooler on the Camaro and re-tuned for better mid range power. The new intercooler will or should eliminate loss of power in the straights due to high IATs. Aside from confirming the Camaro alignment to be spot on it is not changed.

BOTH cars had brake pad issues the last time out. The Mustang probably a bit more so than the Camaro. Both cars have new rotors all around. Both cars will be running custom made Cobalt friction pads. Both cars will have better braking and should both be faster because of it.

After all of this, I honestly do NOT know which car will be fastest. Both will be faster than the last session and at that session both screamed around the track. It will be a very interesting day at the track.

Then there is the people part of this. I have become very good friends with Micheal Timarac and Jess Albright at Saleen. I'll be at Michael's wedding in September. Bob Kern is my good freind at GM along with the Mikes at the Proving Grounds Costello and Copeland. I have good relationships with people like Dr. Jamie, Cliff Cohen, Derek Zalewski and many more over at GM. When I think of all them I want the cars to end in a dead heat as I don't want to disappoint any of them.

All I can do is triple check each car. Then check them again and make certain they are ready to go for my driver. I'll give him the same instructions I give all my drivers. Don't scratch my car. You are sitting in a car that is faster than many race cars. It has NONE of the safety features found in a race car. If you don't scratch my car you will come back exactly the same way you were when you sat in the car. So don't scratch my car and don't leave anything on the track. Push it as hard as you can without scratching it.

As soon as he is out of sight I say a prayer for his safety. This is my biggest fear. They are all professionals. They all know the risks. None of that matters. I don't want my drivers hurt. I wrote this because there are so many very very fast Camaros owned by members of this forum. They have two ton race cars with street brakes and most are without cages, racing seats, harnesses, HANS devices.... Everyone please be careful out there.

Now I can honestly say I don't care which car is faster. My priorities are in order. It doesn't matter as long as my driver remians safe.
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Old 08-05-2010, 10:30 PM   #29
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^^^ nicely done.
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Old 08-13-2010, 08:40 PM   #30
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Vote for the Camaro vs. Mustang at this link: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100421
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Old 08-13-2010, 10:09 PM   #31
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The rear of the Saleen is the only thing I'm not feeling. Other than that, it's a bad ass ride.
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Old 08-18-2010, 03:09 PM   #32
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Updated 8.17.2010

There are big differences in the two cars that go well beyond the Mustang have a fixed rear axle. The Mustang also has a floating rear caliper mounted in rubber that is more at home in a 1968 Mustang than a 2010 Mustang. The front sub-frame on the Mustang does not extend as far forward and mounts with two less bolts. From the factory the Mustang has two chassis braces that are important to the function of the vehicle.

On a Camaro we would start to improve stability through the lowest hanging fruit -- Pedders EP1200 sub-frame inserts. On the Mustang, it is the FIRST car we ever specified a triangulated chassis brace as the single most important foundational upgrade.

The mustang front sub-frame ends at the leading edge of the front wheel axles in the hubs. The front sway bar ends connect to the front struts. The main length of the bar connects to formed sheet metal well forward of the sub-frame with D bushes and metal straps. We designed a light weight chassis brace to more directly tie the sub-frame to the formed sheet metal where the D bushes bolt.



The immediate result is that the function of the OE bar is improved. You will notice the difference the first time you turn the front wheels and over the first bump. There are a lot of companies that make suspension parts for the Mustang. It is a crowded market. To my knowledge, this is the only triangulated front chassis brace. We look at things differently than other. We think the OEM guys are smart. They know what they are doing. They work under different budget constraints than a company like Pedders.

We do not look at the cost of a part first. We look for foundational weaknesses in the chassis. We ask why the OEM engineers did it this way. We rely on 60 years of experiences to guide us. Then we ask the magic question, why not do this. We build a prototype part and test it on the car. If it works, we assemble a detailed build of materials. Then we create the retail price. If the part is important enough in terms of function, people will buy it because it offers value. If our part is half as much or twice as much as brand x we don't care as long as the function justifies the price.

The equivalent part on the Camaro would be the EP1200 sub-frame bush inserts. You can add RWHP, you can add coilovers, you can add wheels and tires, but until you have at least sub-frame inserts you can't have a GREAT Camaro. If you want more than inserts we have the EP1201 and EP1201HD bushes. They makes the Camaro IRS function as designed -- STABLE.



Why didn't the OE engineers do this. Why didn't they know how important this was to the function so a great IRS? They did know. They had to meet a cabin noise level requirement that is a national standard to be certified as a library Most people equate quiet with quality. Our inserts add so little cabin noise you cannot tell it is there. If you used GM's audio testing equipment it would document the difference. Pedders is not restricted by that benchmark requirement so we are free to offer three levels of sub-frame bush solutions giving the Camaro owner complete control over how to setup their Camaro.

If we had an unlimited amount of resources and time I am sure we could squeeze another 1.5 to 2.5 seconds out of the cars. We would do this with improved engine cooling, front and rear brake ducts, upgrade the engine internals to increase TQ and HP and finally a couple of weeks at the track adjusting and tweaking in tiny increments looking for gains in a corner entry as small as .025 seconds. The end result would be cars that are incrementally faster and priced another $15,000 higher.

Our test day was typical for Pedders. It rained morning after morning washing all the rubber out of the track so we had virgin asphalt. One of these days we'll get a nice season track full of race rubber. When car run a track the tires wear leaving behind a 'filler'. The race rubber fills the spaces between the stones that form the track surface. A seasoned track is not slick. It is sticky and fast. I would complain of a black cloud and rain following me, but we had the shy pouring down rain when we arrived and 90 minutes later we had a dry track. How can I complain?

Our weather always seems to be so cold we are shaking or so hot we are melting. It was hot. It was humid. We know our TQ and HP were down. The cars are faster than they tested. They are only as fast as they tested on 8.11.2010 because that is what the data logging shows. We do know both car improved from our last test session even though they were making less HP and TQ dues to the exceptionally hot and humid weather so the chassis tweaks we made were spot on.

This is a very long answer to your very good question. Both cars are AWESOME. Off the showroom floor, I'll pick the Camaro over the Mustang. My partner Ron Pedder from AU drove the Mustang bone stock. He LOVED the look. He loved the interior. His evaluation was to the point -- They have that great 1968 look updated. The look is spot on. They got the drive all wrong. I feel like I am driving a 1968 Mustang. We knew we had a long way t go to get new Mustang to perform like our Camaro Supercar. In the end, that is exactly what we were able to accomplish. Cale Yarborough could have dominated NASCAR with the 2010 Saleen in 1968 You can see from the chart we have used a wide range of cars for our track time comparisons -- Thank you John O'Donnell for pulling that data together --- and the Mustang is going to slot very well.

The Pro Touring cars are fast. They are GREAT CARS!!! The suspension on most if either custom built or tubular component up grades. Some are built bu suspension companies. Most are built by guys that LOVE cars and motorsports. Some have put their life and life savings into them. They are fully functioning works of automotive art created by people who have a deep passion driving them. A number of these enthusiasts were at Gingerman for the Motor State Pro Touring Challenge.

Check out the ProTouring Cars at Gingerman or the Motor State ProTouring G-Machine Video Gallery

The driving, the cars and the feel of the event are everything an enthusiast could as for. They ran very very well. The Mustang and Camaro are faster around Gingerman than any of them and my best educated guess is both the Mustang and Camaro are heavier than any of the Pro Touring cars.

When we do publish the winner it will do little to settle the Mustang Camaro debate. Going into this project I was not all that confident I could get the Ford to be street civil and track animal. With a GREAT TEAM EFFORT we did exactly that. If the 60s and 70s formed the Golden Age of American Muscle then we are in the Platinum age right now. AMERICA MUSCLE has never had it this good!When I walk into my garage I have a hard time deciding which car to drive. Most of the time it will be based on which one is spotless. That is another poll. When you have two nice cars, do you take the one that is freshly detailed and spotless or the one that is just a little dirty?

One last thought. If you own a 5th Gen Camaro you own a GREAT CAR and so do the people that bought a Mustang over at the Blue Oval. If the Camaro is Pedderised or the Mustang has the new Saleen Suspension you own a SUPERCAR and we have the track data to prove it.

Here is an update on the Theoretical Lap Times for both the Mustang and Camaro. We use our data logging software to cut and paste the best parts of every lap we ran for each car. This does two things. First, it is a measure of driver consistency. The closer the drivers Best Lap to the Theoretical Lap the more consistent the driver is. To be withing a second is good, under a second is better and under a half a second is beyond good. Second, this is a measure of the car and particularly the suspension. To be able to be consistent the car must be consistent. All a driver can ask of a car is to be stable and predictable. If the car delivers stability and predictability the driver knows what to do on every inch of the track. A really good car paired with a really good driver will deliver consistently good results. One is a measure of the other.

In the Camaro John was 3/10ths of a second slower in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.
In the Mustang John was 3/100ths of a second off in his Actual Lap Time compared to the Theoretical Best Lap Time.

This is another way of saying the same thing. Our DRIVER and our CARS were almost PERFECT.

John and the Mustang WERE perfect to be 3/100ths of a second apart in Actual vs. Theoretical Lap Times.

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Old 08-20-2010, 11:56 PM   #33
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We pulled up to Alternative Performance for their open house today with the Camaro and Mustang. EVERYONE seems to KNOW which car won the war. It ranges from the it was so unfair if they thought their favorite brand had lost to I would like to have either one in my garage. We'll take at least on pass down the Woodward Parking lot today.
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Old 08-21-2010, 10:19 PM   #34
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I definetly dont like that mustang, especially that small square exaust ist's ugly.
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Old 08-21-2010, 11:30 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawj7 View Post
I definetly dont like that mustang, especially that small square exaust ist's ugly.
Would you like it even less if ity was faster than the Camaro or more if the Camaro is faster? Just asking???
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rawj7 View Post
I definetly dont like that mustang, especially that small square exaust ist's ugly.
Ford screwed up the design of the Mustang rear section. They need to shorten the section behind the rear wheels by 6-8 inches and redesign the shape of the rear bumper and tail lights. As is, it's just plain ugly.

That said, the front end is as beautiful as the rear end is ugly. Put a Camaro rear end on a Mustang front end and you have a hot looking car.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:23 PM   #37
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NICE MODS, BUT WHA AN UGLY CAR JUST MY OPINION.
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Old 08-24-2010, 04:29 PM   #38
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Here is the ugly car In Car Video.

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Old 08-24-2010, 04:57 PM   #39
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If that weren't a Mustang that would've been a cool video... lol J/K :seesaw::tweetz:

That things sounds good. I'm most interested to see how different CAMARO puts the power down. Hmm....

Cool video
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
If that weren't a Mustang that would've been a cool video... lol J/K :seesaw::tweetz:

That things sounds good. I'm most interested to see how different CAMARO puts the power down. Hmm....

Cool video
Here is a leak. The Mustang actually out braked the Camaro. Those Saleen 15" front six piston calipers with Cobalt Friction pads were a drastic improvement over the OE Ford brakes. The OE brakes were gone after just a handful of laps. The Saleen setup is good to go for another session or two.
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Old 08-31-2010, 05:33 PM   #41
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I love the Mustang from the front and back, but the side profile of the car is so blah.
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Old 09-02-2010, 12:10 PM   #42
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I know what you mean. The more traditional styling of the Mustang doesn't stand out like the Camaro. Maybe that is because I am a GM guy at heart. Having typed that, when I picked up the Mustang is was very average. My partner in AU described it as a modern version of the 68. He absolutely loved the look. Then he drove it stock and said 'too bad they made it drive like a 68 Mustang.' Now that we have dialed in the car with suspension, brakes, tires and wheels it doesn't feel like a 1968 Mustang any more. I am almost embarrassed to say this. I am a GM guy. I enjoy driving the Pedderised version of the Saleen Mustang. It is a really good car. Strike that. It is a fine automobile and a long way removed from the showroom version.
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Old 09-06-2010, 03:17 PM   #43
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when can we expect to see the final test results?
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:39 PM   #44
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Both articles have been written and submitted. Publication dates are not too outout.
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